Pope Francis: parents can smack their children for bad behaviour

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When I was a kid I was beaten with a belt once and a 1/4 in. nylon rope once. Both times for being late.The first time my Dad, probably scared to death, looked all over town when I didn’t come home until well into the evening. The second time I was late for Mass. Was my Dad wrong for doing this? Probably, but I’m 58 and still alive and I’m never late for anything. 🤷
My dad used his hands to spank and my mom used a fly swatter or a yardstick (anyone remember those?). It was not done often. But I knew when the fly swatter or yardstick came out she meant business.
 
Lol, as if little Johnny just didn’t understand that he shouldn’t hit his sister in the head with a hammer?

That is fantasy. In the real world little Johnny knows it perfectly well but he is pushing his envelope to see what he can get away with. When Dad pulls his belt out and whack him across his glutes and tells him sternly to never do it again and he is grounded for a week, little Johnny learns that real actions have real consequences. Keeping it all within verbal bounds is like telling stories, playing pretend and make believe.
Nobody said how old Little Johnny was. And I said you are welcome to punish him. Just don’t do it in anger.
So you think ‘righteous anger’ is a sin? So when God gets angry He is sinning too? lol
lol. God “got angry” most often when He was addressing the goody two-shoes that showed anger and contempt for sinners. Except the one time in the temple. Was there a single documented instance where he became angry at somebody’s sin? Somebody other than the Church leaders and their sins of pride? Pride does underlie anger as to root of all the other sins, so it’s understandable.
And, yes, little Johnny should know that the feelings that people have toward him change very suddenly and radically if he does certain things like blowing up a train, or a hitting his sister in the head with a hammer because he thinks its funny, or setting fire to a neighbors house, etc.
You’re darned tootin his actions affect the feelings of everyone around him and to pretend that they do not is hypocrisy.
Yes, unfortunately he is taught that and most likely never will forget.

Jesus showed us a better way; a way of peace.

I have a couple “Little Jimmie” stories myself. Once I left the gas spigot on in my grandmother’s bathroom, because I had no idea what it was (we only traveled to see her every two years) and I had messed with it. She smelled the gas and got very upset. I turned it off, but was curious about her anger so I asked her, “why are you so upset? I have more years to lose than you do?” I honestly wanted to know why she was acting like that. She didn’t say much after that. Well my parents got home and she relayed the story to them, and even chuckled a bit when she told them what I had said which scared the hell out of me because I didn’t understand how she could be laughing now when she had been so upset earlier. In general, I did not understand poeple’s emotions. Suddenly I became very scared because I thought I must have said or dome something very wrong. So my dad says, “come into the bathroom with me.” Then he explained the spigot and then told me, “old people know they may not have much longer to live, but they don’t like to be reminded of it so it isn’t something you should say.” I said, “oh.” And I understood. No spanking required.

Don’t get me wrong; I’ve spanked my own kids a few times; I even broke down one son’s bedroom door when he wouldn’t unlock it. But with each child I found the need to spank less and less, until children 5 and 6 hardly got it at all. When I look back at how angry I was at the first couple, I actually get embarrassed. The oldest one completed an engineering degree, then after five years of work, joined the seminary to become a priest. He’s doing great, and his anger problem is fairly minimal. But the younger kids are doing just as well and in fact are social leaders, because I taught them that OTHER PEOPLE react and make decisions based on feelings and whims.

One thing they did know, is that they would never “regret telling me” anything. Because I did not fly off the handle and get upset, I got all sorts of inside information that other parents didn’t get about their kids.
Nah, that has nothing to do with corporal punishment. In the old days people were innured to little pains and offenses and had much thicker skin. We have all these injured little feelings exactly because these kids don’t know what real pain is.
Yes in the old says people were thicker skinned. Either that or they did get angry and just didn’t express it as much. Jesus had the “thickest skin of all” in letting them do what they did to Him, WITHOUT getting angry.
To repress the anger you feel because the child has done something heinous is FAKE, it is pretending to be something (calm) that you are not (outraged that little Johnny did something so intolerable).
I didn’t say to “repress” the anger. That would be “low expectations” and yes it is fake. But you can express the anger in a way that does not require hitting, in almost all cases I submit. My call is to work on becoming less angry overall, and to quit letting others control our feelings. How many angry and insulting letters do you think the Holy Father gets; boy you’d think he’d have enough to be angry about for lifetimes. And why doesn’t he? Because as he said being Christian is about being joyful, among other things. Not about being angry and intolerant.
If little Johnny keeps pushing the envelope and all you ever do is smile and give him time outs, you will never have little Johnnies respect, which is the FIRST requirement for parenting.
I agree time-outs are kind of silly in some contexts; sometimes it’s actually what the kid wants anyway so it backfires. And yes if Little Johnny “pushes the envelope” then stronger action will be needed. Preferably by a parent who is controlled by love and correction rather than in anger where there is a bona fide attempt to actually “hurt” the child. 👍
 
You seriously think that righteous anger in response to an heinous act byh a child ENCOURAGEs the child to do more of the same? lololol
I’m not talking about behavior modification. I make no pretense that you can scare the hell out of a kid to keep him/her from doing it again. In fact, when I was little, “behaviorists” were dominating psychology – behaviorists only look at external, observable actions. While we learned quite a few things from them, most psychologists now consider the “behaviorist” domination to not only be over, but are kind of the “dark ages” of psychology. Learning to deal with behavior as completely external, without considering the workings of the mind, is how my entire generation was brought up in school.

Have you ever heard of “Little Albert”? Yes it’s possible to scare a child into practically any behavior.

I just called “nonsense” because YOU called “nonsense” by assuming things that we didn’t know about the hypothetical situation. When you automatically assumed that what you thought was a heinous act of violence may have been no more than just an experiment to the child, depending on the child’s developmental age. Whether “anger” is an appropriate response to the child also depends on the child.
‘Johnny, where is your sister?’
‘In the hospital, dummy, where she needs to be after I hit her with the rake.’
Dad smiles, ‘Well, Johnny, I think we need to have a little talk…’
‘Not now, Dad, I just hit 35th level and it is a really hard one…’
‘Johnny…’
‘Dad shut up already! You’re messing me up!’
Oh for God’s sake don’t get stupid about it. If you think this is what I’m promoting then you should probably never read another thing I write. :rolleyes:

But no, I’m not “angry” that you wrote that. 😉
I spanked my daughter maybe 3 times tops, and my son about a dozen. One time I spanked him in anger for something that was extremely wrong and I punished him further. I later took him on a trip and spent some quality time with him after he redressed the problem, and reassured him that I loved him no less.
It sounds like this worked well for you, and I’m glad you had the good time and were able to explain how you still love him. I say that we can avoid the anger in almost all cases, but what you are describing is also a good path. Because you made it clear that the anger doesn’t mean they are loved any less. I have nothing negative to say about your story.

My second son had a friend in high school who was raised in a foster family that would sometimes kick him out and he’d stay over at our house because he had nowhere to go in the middle of the night. One time he was not feeling well and the “parents” were very angry; he got sick in his morning cereal, and the foster parents made him eat it anyway. That’s because they were motivated by anger instead of love. Guess what though – that kid ended up starting a restaurant in a neighboring state, and hiring my son to work with him! And he’s the nicest kid you’d ever want to meet.
After he turned 16 I never had an issue with him, and despite his ADD he graduated high school on a low dosage of meds for his ADD, and stopped taking it altogether a year later.
My daughter has turned out well and even my father in law has told me and my wife we have done a great job raisng our kids, and we are both very proud of them.
That’s awesome! 👍
But the two central axioms we raised them by was 1. as parents our job was to prepare our kids for life, not to make sure they have fun or be their friends. We were not their friends we were their parents/trainers/teachers. 2. We never faked anything with them. If we felt an emotion we expressed it, if we had a thought we told them about it. They never suffered from a lack of praise and love and never were given a shallow faked reaction about anything.
Honesty is crucial in being parents so that the kids have no doubt that mom and dad will do exactly what they say they will and mean what they say when it is said.
You sound like you actually have a very balanced approach. In fact, I saw one study that indicated that children who grew up in emotionally troubling circumstances may actually have social advantages over those who don’t. And I like being honest with them. But after 29 years and raising six children while emotionally psychotic with severe bipolar disorder, including two engineers, one seminarian, and all of them both socially well adapted and straight-A students, I conclude that angry demonstrations were very seldom needed, and becoming angry myself was not.

So I’m not telling you not to punish your children; I’m just saying that being angry is not required to accomplish that. I’m quite an expert on emotions from my own personal experience; I’ve gone the “full range” and I agree with Jesus that anger is destructive, and if I speak to a brother in anger that is actually a “pro-life” issue. (Matt 5:22-23)

So yeah, you’re going to get angry from time to time; like you said even Jesus lost HIs cool a couple times. But do not “give them the keys” to your anger; I know kids that even learned to use the parents’ anger against them.

But when you jumped to the assumption in the “Little Jimmie” story that because he did something destructive, he needs adults to show him anger. That’s just teaching him more of what Jesus came to teach us we could be free from – becoming angry due to others’ actions. That is the standard that I believe all Christians should strive for, because that’s what Jesus said to do. “Be perfect.” Are you going to fail now and then? Yes. But if you justify anger instead of learning to become not-angry then you’re missing out on a lot of what Jesus could help you with. 👍
 
I have been paying extremely close attention to the HF’s words the past couple of weeks because he is touching on Fatherhood. Something very close to my heart.

This quote is one of the best examples of the culture of the Pope. He is a Latin pope, and in that culture fathers are stern, and beat children. I say this as a parent who spanks when needed. But I think the pope has really missed the mark on Fatherhood. And that is very concerning to me because he is the Father to us all. And a representative of God the Father. Many Hispanic people have a hard time even praying the Our Father or seeing God in that way. Which maybe why a devotion to Mary is so strong in the Hispanic culture.

This quote was odd from the “Pope of Mercy” I do however look forward to the explanation from all those who think every thing this Pope says is somehow superseding the Gospel…

Personally, I like the quote because I think we are in a time of Hypersensitivity with regards to what this particular Pope says. And I think this can be used to bring things back into perspective when someone else takes the Pope out of context. And I think it also provides a window into just how latino centric the Pope is in politics and life experiences. And how that may clash with the Western Church.
 
I have been paying extremely close attention to the HF’s words the past couple of weeks because he is touching on Fatherhood. Something very close to my heart.

This quote is one of the best examples of the culture of the Pope. He is a Latin pope, and in that culture fathers are stern, and beat children. I say this as a parent who spanks when needed. But I think the pope has really missed the mark on Fatherhood. And that is very concerning to me because he is the Father to us all. And a representative of God the Father. Many Hispanic people have a hard time even praying the Our Father or seeing God in that way. Which maybe why a devotion to Mary is so strong in the Hispanic culture.

This quote was odd from the “Pope of Mercy” I do however look forward to the explanation from all those who think every thing this Pope says is somehow superseding the Gospel…

Personally, I like the quote because I think we are in a time of Hypersensitivity with regards to what this particular Pope says. And I think this can be used to bring things back into perspective when someone else takes the Pope out of context. And I think it also provides a window into just how latino centric the Pope is in politics and life experiences. And how that may clash with the Western Church.
I personally found his answer biblical. Could you elaborate on the bolded part? Are there other sermons you are referring to?
 
The Holy Father does seem to relish in controversy, doesn’t he?
 
HH was born in the 1900s.

So was I. So were most of us.

In those years, kids got whupped. It was what was done; and the vast majority both understood and came out OK.

Why react with shock when HH makes a non-binding remark about a practice that is not in itself wrong??

ICXC NIKA.
Here ya go! Not only did we come out okay, we actually had respect for authority and most of the time we were obedient! I only remember one smacking and I was so shocked I never DARED do anything to cause it again! Now, the rebellious teenage years were another story altogether…😛
 
The problem is that there were and will probably always be parents who use corporal punishment on their children to vent their own frustration. Or the alcoholic parent who becomes physically abusive when drunk, and then justifies it by saying, “Spare the rod, spoil the child,” or “I did it to teach them a lesson,” or some other lame excuse. The Holy Father is certainly not referring to these kinds of parents, but anyone who lived through this kind of abuse as a child will likely be hurt by what the Pope said.
 
Am I just angelic? In serious self-denial? Who knows. I cannot remember a single instance where I deserved a “lashing.”

I was spanked ONCE by my dad when I was around 5 for coming home on my own late from a friend’s house after school (like an hour late…daylight). Really a friend of friends so my dad didn’t know the family or where I was - it was spontaneous. On top of that, at the time there was a neighborhood alert out about some guy prowling around with candy trying to lure kids into his car.

Completely terrified and freaked me out; still remember it. I cried and cried in my room. I was not a hell-raiser by any means. My dad never did it again and told me when I was an adult it had made him sick. He was beaten with a belt - he had difficulty talking about it and HATED his dad all his life. I am not kidding.

Proceed with extreme caution here is all I am saying…

There are lots of less violent and dare I say more effective ways to make a point and discipline your children; we are not barbarians. In my view, it’s a last resort or NEVER, preferably the latter.
 
I’m not talking about behavior modification. I make no pretense that you can scare the hell out of a kid to keep him/her from doing it again…

My second son had a friend in high school who was raised in a foster family that would sometimes kick him out and he’d stay over at our house because he had nowhere to go in the middle of the night. One time he was not feeling well and the “parents” were very angry; he got sick in his morning cereal, and the foster parents made him eat it anyway. That’s because they were motivated by anger instead of love. …

You sound like you actually have a very balanced approach. In fact, I saw one study that indicated that children who grew up in emotionally troubling circumstances may actually have social advantages over those who don’t. And I like being honest with them. But after 29 years and raising six children while emotionally psychotic with severe bipolar disorder, including two engineers, one seminarian, and all of them both socially well adapted and straight-A students, I conclude that angry demonstrations were very seldom needed, and becoming angry myself was not.

So I’m not telling you not to punish your children; I’m just saying that being angry is not required to accomplish that. I’m quite an expert on emotions from my own personal experience; I’ve gone the “full range” and I agree with Jesus that anger is destructive, and if I speak to a brother in anger that is actually a “pro-life” issue. (Matt 5:22-23)

So yeah, you’re going to get angry from time to time; like you said even Jesus lost HIs cool a couple times. But do not “give them the keys” to your anger; I know kids that even learned to use the parents’ anger against them.

But when you jumped to the assumption in the “Little Jimmie” story that because he did something destructive, he needs adults to show him anger. That’s just teaching him more of what Jesus came to teach us we could be free from – becoming angry due to others’ actions. That is the standard that I believe all Christians should strive for, because that’s what Jesus said to do. “Be perfect.” Are you going to fail now and then? Yes. But if you justify anger instead of learning to become not-angry then you’re missing out on a lot of what Jesus could help you with. 👍
I cant respond in full to your post right now. My dear daughter is taking me to see Jupiter Ascending this afternoon, and I have to shower and clean the kitchen.

I do want to clarify some things.
  1. I show anger but I don’t ACT on the basis of the anger. I stated what the punishment would be and why and I carried it out. I did not fly off the handle and attack my kids or make them eat their vomit and that sort of thing, which is just vindictive and cruel. We had an established process and I carried it through and the child knew exactly why they were getting punished. But yes, they saw the anger in my face and had no doubt I was mad.
  2. Anger is one of those hot button buzz words today like the word ‘discrimination’ and people are so negative toward it that one cannot make any affirmative statement about either without a lengthy discussion. But we all discriminate and for good reason, we don’t want to waste time with going through trial and failure with each specific case. So we use inductive reason to make general observations about something and then avoid it or seek it out. The problem with discrimination is that we shouldn’t do it to people as every person is different and there is no human behavior that is 100% based on race or ethnicity all the time. Ethnicity can have generalities about values held, but none of those mean that the specific individual one is relating to at any specific time holds to any of those generalities.
Anger is a tool God gave us to steady our hand in times of peril, risk and stress. If you use it the way it was intended then you are fine. If you act from anger, there is a good chance that you are doing the wrong thing, but sometimes that anger allows us to do things we couldn’t do otherwise that we know we SHOULD do.

Everything has its place and season.
 
For those who like to see the Pope’s words in context, the Vatican website has the text of the audience on their site:

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/audiences/2015/documents/papa-francesco_20150204_udienza-generale.html
“Sometimes I have to strike the children lightly… but never in the face so as not to humiliate them”. How beautiful! He has a sense of dignity. He must punish, but he does it in a just way, and moves on.
:rolleyes: I feel for the translators and PR types for this Pope. strike children lightly? LOL. The Italian translation was “beat”
 
Imagine the firestorm if Benedict XVI had said this… The media would never let go. As it is now, from the “Pope of mercy” it hardly gets reported.
 
Am I just angelic? In serious self-denial? Who knows. I cannot remember a single instance where I deserved a “lashing.”

I was spanked ONCE by my dad when I was around 5 for coming home on my own late from a friend’s house after school (like an hour late…daylight). Really a friend of friends so my dad didn’t know the family or where I was - it was spontaneous. On top of that, at the time there was a neighborhood alert out about some guy prowling around with candy trying to lure kids into his car.

Completely terrified and freaked me out; still remember it. I cried and cried in my room. I was not a hell-raiser by any means. My dad never did it again and told me when I was an adult it had made him sick. He was beaten with a belt - he had difficulty talking about it and HATED his dad all his life. I am not kidding.

Proceed with extreme caution here is all I am saying…

There are lots of less violent and dare I say more effective ways to make a point and discipline your children; we are not barbarians. In my view, it’s a last resort or NEVER, preferably the latter.
My wife’s dad spanked her once when she was very little. She said her reaction made him feel so ashamed afterwards that never did it again to her.

I would never spank a girl. They react to such punishments much differently than boys.
 
My wife’s dad spanked her once when she was very little. She said her reaction made him feel so ashamed afterwards that never did it again to her.

I would never spank a girl. They react to such punishments much differently than boys.
It also matters with multiple children.
Daughter 1. Averaged about one spanking a month for about two years. And on week three you could tell her behavior was going to need correction. She is almost too old for a spanking now.
Daughter 2 2 spankings in entire life. And both of them, at the end of my life, God will ask “Why did you strike my saint?” She will never be spanked again.
Daughter 3. Maybe a handful of spankings for lying or the such. She is still young and kind of spunky. Could be a few more in her future.
Son 1 Still young, like 2. 1 Spanking for hitting. Probably more to come.

Daughter 4. Still in womb, due out any minute. I am sure she will be a little saint and never need correction…
 
My wife’s dad spanked her once when she was very little. She said her reaction made him feel so ashamed afterwards that never did it again to her.

I would never spank a girl. They react to such punishments much differently than boys.
👍 Yeah, my mom had died within a year before that. It was a bad decision I think (I am over it now; please don’t get me wrong :)). I think if she had been there, she would have stopped it. Full credit to my dad though - he never did it again (and as I said he was raised with the belt - that is self-discipline, huh, not to carry on the tradition.) He once told me that every generation we improve in parenthood in my family - too bad I don’t have kids - they would be great. 😉
 
I don’t agree with spanking… I was spanked by both my parents and although I might have deserved correction it wasn’t the fear of getting spanked that prevented me from doing wrong things.

I have read several studies that demonstrate that spanking does not reduce the problematic behavior and I wish people would learn that violence against ignorance is not a solution.

If my wife did something wrong because she didn’t know about it (or even if she did it on purpose) I wouldn’t spank her, God doesn’t use violence against me when I Sin, He loves me and shows me what I did wrong through the ministry of the Church. As a (hopefully) future father I want to follow that kind of Ministry.

Here are just a few links to studies that show what I mean:
-http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
-http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=518458
-http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/584804?sid=21105276957541&uid=3739832&uid=3739256&uid=2&uid=4
-http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...e=online&aid=2540224&fileId=S0954579400006040
-http://www.cmaj.ca/content/161/7/805.short
-http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02712591?LI=true#page-2

God bless,
D.
 
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