Pope Francis received Bp. Fellay, SSPX Superior General

[ProVobis]

I am sure that not it is not true of each individual priest of the SSPX, but what Kozlosap says is true of the organization as a whole. Just look at their official website, and you will easily find all manner of venom against the Novus Ordo mass and the Second Vatican Council. Most of it is completely ridiculous. They have an article on their website which says, among other things, that communion under both kinds is a Protestant element of the NO mass (I am not making this up)! Furthermore, the mass is illegitimate They also say that Vatican II (especially Dignitatis Humanae) is heretical and that it cannot be reconciled with the true teaching of the Church. This is not the ranting of a few extreme wingnuts. This is the party line of the Society.

No, what he’s saying is seemingly he knows what the Pope’s action or reaction will be. All I’m saying is that we could duplicate the action taken by the Pope back in 1988 where he allowed a new order to be set up and priests admitted on an individual basis. But it’s just a possibility at this point. Obviously those who run the website are not interested in being admitted to full communion and released from their suspension, if that’s the state they are in. So they’re not even worth discussing.

 

[OraLabora]

Interesting. Thank you for your reply.

One question. Does “being in the neighborhood” get you to Heaven?

Why not read the CCC for what the Church teaches about Protestantism, to get your answer? It seems we could do much worse than that which the Church officially promulgates.

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

 

[McCall1981]

Unfortunately, it looks like this story was much ado about very little.

According to the SSPX:

"The statement went on to say that Mons. Pozzo took the opportunity to present Bishop Fellay to the Pope as he was leaving the room. “There was a brief exchange in which Francis told Bishop Fellay, according to the usual formula of politeness, ‘I am delighted to make your acquaintance’ to which Bishop Fellay said he prayed a lot, and the Pope asked him to pray for him. Such was the “meeting” that lasted a few seconds.”

Read more: ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/sspx-confirms-fellay-pope-francis-meeting#ixzz31W4kcFTu

Oh well, I guess it’s better than nothing at all.

 

[kozlosap]

No, what he’s saying is seemingly he knows what the Pope’s action or reaction will be. All I’m saying is that we could duplicate the action taken by the Pope back in 1988 where he allowed a new order to be set up and priests admitted on an individual basis. But it’s just a possibility at this point. Obviously those who run the website are not interested in being admitted to full communion and released from their suspension, if that’s the state they are in. So they’re not even worth discussing.

I’m a SHE!! I’m sorry if you feel I was over generalizing in my response. I have read the many, very long and repetitive, treatises that make up their website, and I certainly don’t see how, with their demands, they can come into full communion with Holy Mother Church. They are like children throwing a forty year tantrum. When an organization puts itself above the Truth, then what are we to think? Pope Francis is a Jesuit. Jesuits take a vow of obedience to the Pope. That the SPPX has often indicated that the last five Popes are illegitimate. What exactly is Papa Francis supposed to do to bring them back to the flock, agree with all of their heretical beliefs and let them continue to spread lies?

 

[TimothyH]

How can you be certain of this? And how do you know ALL of them have this position? Look at the FSSP, for example. Will such stereotyping never cease?

The FSSP do not say that the Ordinary Form is invalid and that the Second Vatican Council taught error and need not be accepted. They also submit to the local bishop in matters of public worship and celebration of the sacraments as per canon 738 §2.

The third post in the thread posted by McCall1981 cited Pat Archibold on Creative Minority Report as stating that he received a note from someone who claimed that “modernists in Rome are offering to the Society a « recognition by tolerance » without the need for any formal agreement”. The possibility of “tolerance” is all we are asking about.

Nobody is stereotyping anything. We are simply asking how the Church can allow someone be allowed to operate in a diocese who teach something contrary to what the local Bishop teaches and what the Church herself teaches.

How can contradicting Church teaching be tolerated? That’s all we are asking.

-Tim-

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Why not read the CCC for what the Church teaches about Protestantism, to get your answer? It seems we could do much worse than that which the Church officially promulgates.

The wording “means of salvation” is deliberately vague. It could be interpreted, for example, to mean that Protestant communities can lead people to the Catholic Church. Obviously the common teaching is not that extreme and acknowledges that it is possible to be mystically united to the Catholic Church while not visibily in communion, but it does not teach that being in a Protestant community implies communion with the Church. It is not taught about any Protestant group that someone will be saved because they believe and follow all the precepts of their own community. In short, I do not think the excerpt from the CCC by itself answers Kyrie Eleison’s question. I think going by the Vatican II documents as a whole and the rest of the Church’s teaching, the most accurate answer would be that being in the neighborhood is not enough for salvation, but one, being in the neighborhood, may stumble into the house even without realizing it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m a SHE!! I’m sorry if you feel I was over generalizing in my response. I have read the many, very long and repetitive, treatises that make up their website, and I certainly don’t see how, with their demands, they can come into full communion with Holy Mother Church. They are like children throwing a forty year tantrum. When an organization puts itself above the Truth, then what are we to think? Pope Francis is a Jesuit. Jesuits take a vow of obedience to the Pope. That the SPPX has often indicated that the last five Popes are illegitimate. What exactly is Papa Francis supposed to do to bring them back to the flock, agree with all of their heretical beliefs and let them continue to spread lies?

The SSPX are not sedevacantists.
Pope Francis seems to have the opinon that it is a big tent and he seems to welcome dissenting views. He at least tollerates views that are more heretical than the SSPX’s I see no reason to think he could not do as he wishes with the SSPX. Including bringing them in with no conditions or excommunicating them.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

No, what he’s saying is seemingly he knows what the Pope’s action or reaction will be. All I’m saying is that we could duplicate the action taken by the Pope back in 1988 where he allowed a new order to be set up and priests admitted on an individual basis. But it’s just a possibility at this point. Obviously those who run the website are not interested in being admitted to full communion and released from their suspension, if that’s the state they are in. So they’re not even worth discussing.

The thing is, far as I can tell from talking to laity who are involved to various degrees with the SSPX, this is not some of the priests. This is the overwhelming consensus of the organization, the official party line as I said earlier. While it is possible that individual priests will leave and join the FSSP or similar organization or that another might be established, the pope absolutely should not “unconditionally” admit the SSPX into communion.

The SSPX are not sedevacantists.
Pope Francis seems to have the opinon that it is a big tent and he seems to welcome dissenting views. He at least tollerates views that are more heretical than the SSPX’s I see no reason to think he could not do as he wishes with the SSPX. Including bringing them in with no conditions or excommunicating them.

The SSPX is not officially sedevacantist (in fact, they are publicly outspoken against sedevacantism), but individual Society priests are. Where do you think the SSPV and Bishop Donald Dolan’s gang came from? Also, there is a difference in being slow to excommunicate an erring group and unconditionally readmitting a schismatic/heretical group. The SSPX would not want to be in communion with “modernist Rome” and a “modernist pope” anyway.

 

[Lormar]

I’m a SHE!! I’m sorry if you feel I was over generalizing in my response. I have read the many, very long and repetitive, treatises that make up their website, and I certainly don’t see how, with their demands, they can come into full communion with Holy Mother Church. They are like children throwing a forty year tantrum. When an organization puts itself above the Truth, then what are we to think? Pope Francis is a Jesuit. Jesuits take a vow of obedience to the Pope. That the SPPX has often indicated that the last five Popes are illegitimate. What exactly is Papa Francis supposed to do to bring them back to the flock, agree with all of their heretical beliefs and let them continue to spread lies?

They don’t hold any heretical beliefs, and I wonder where you got that idea. And I think you should extend them the same kindness and charity you extend to the religious in the Church who truly do hold strange beliefs and ideas.

 

[OraLabora]

The wording “means of salvation” is deliberately vague. It could be interpreted, for example, to mean that Protestant communities can lead people to the Catholic Church. Obviously the common teaching is not that extreme and acknowledges that it is possible to be mystically united to the Catholic Church while not visibily in communion, but it does not teach that being in a Protestant community implies communion with the Church. It is not taught about any Protestant group that someone will be saved because they believe and follow all the precepts of their own community. In short, I do not think the excerpt from the CCC by itself answers Kyrie Eleison’s question. I think going by the Vatican II documents as a whole and the rest of the Church’s teaching, the most accurate answer would be that being in the neighborhood is not enough for salvation, but one, being in the neighborhood, may stumble into the house even without realizing it.

The statement in fact allows for the possibility of salvation for Protestant communities, which is why I suggested reading it.

The second part is that only God knows who really is saved, which should be implicit from the CCC statement.

Therefore the proper conclusion, which I hoped Kyrie would arrive at on his own, is that we cannot know if those “in the neighborhood” as Cat put it, are saved.

But we cannot exclude the fact that they may saved be either. It really is God who is in charge. We cannot say who is or isn’t saved even among Catholics. All we can do us offer the surest path to salvation. None of us can provide any guarantees.

 

[kozlosap]

They don’t hold any heretical beliefs, and I wonder where you got that idea. And I think you should extend them the same kindness and charity you extend to the religious in the Church who truly do hold strange beliefs and ideas.

We are splitting hairs here when we “all” write about what is heretical and who is a sed and who isn’t. The truth, at least in my 61 year old brain, is that without the Church totally agreeing to let them come into full communion without any sanctions on their own SSPX Magesterium, then they will continue to sit on the outside and snipe at the Church and Pope Francis. I fully believe that Pope Francis would love to have the SSPX back in the fold, but not for one mini second do I think that he will agree to all of their demands. When a child refuses to play well with others then they end up sitting in the Corner, sometimes very smug in their superiority. The SSPX reminds me of the child in the corner. The NO, Pope Francis and the new translations along with VII are here to stay, so unless the leaders of the SSPX decide that forty years is long enough and accept the real Catholic teachings, nothing will change in regard to their status.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

We are splitting hairs here when we “all” write about what is heretical and who is a sed and who isn’t. The truth, at least in my 61 year old brain, is that without the Church totally agreeing to let them come into full communion without any sanctions on their own SSPX Magesterium, then they will continue to sit on the outside and snipe at the Church and Pope Francis. I fully believe that Pope Francis would love to have the SSPX back in the fold, but not for one mini second do I think that he will agree to all of their demands. When a child refuses to play well with others then they end up sitting in the Corner, sometimes very smug in their superiority. The SSPX reminds me of the child in the corner. The NO, Pope Francis and the new translations along with VII are here to stay, so unless the leaders of the SSPX decide that forty years is long enough and accept the real Catholic teachings, nothing will change in regard to their status.

Unless that child happens to be a “progressive” child. Then the doors of the Church seem to be open to an extreme. Seems like if you are someone who thinks women can be ordained or homosexuals should marry you are welcome.
Just seems to me some equality should come into play.

I don’t think the Pope would ever give in to any “demands” of anyone. Especially this Pope.

But voting the issue up or down is his prerogative and right. I’m happy either way and I am not so sure of anything with this Pope, if you are you must know him better than most.

 

[kozlosap]

Unless that child happens to be a “progressive” child. Then the doors of the Church seem to be open to an extreme. Seems like if you are someone who thinks women can be ordained or homosexuals should marry you are welcome.
Just seems to me some equality should come into play.

I don’t think the Pope would ever give in to any “demands” of anyone. Especially this Pope.

But voting the issue up or down is his prerogative and right. I’m happy either way and I am not so sure of anything with this Pope, if you are you must know him better than most.

I wish I could attribute core beliefs to those I’ve never met.
I do not, and have never advocated for women to in able to be ordained.
I do not and have never advocated that gay couples should be able to marry in the church.
I do believe that gay couples should be able to enjoy a civil marriage.

Yes, just so in the future you can explain my views, my history:
Baby boomer
BA Degree
MA Degree
Spent whole life on Northern California
Attend a huge Jesuit Parish
Daughter attended Catholic schools INCLUDING undergrad and law school.

 

[otjm]

Pope Francis seems to have the opinon that it is a big tent and he seems to welcome dissenting views. He at least tollerates views that are more heretical than the SSPX’s

Perhaps you could elucidate those heretical views which he tolerates? Including, not only naming the views, but also giving the source of his alleged tolerance?

This is a rather bold statement about the current Pope, and should not slide along without clarification.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Perhaps you could elucidate those heretical views which he tolerates? Including, not only naming the views, but also giving the source of his alleged tolerance?

This is a rather bold statement about the current Pope, and should not slide along without clarification.

Nice try.

I was born at night. But not last night.

 

[McCall1981]

Perhaps you could elucidate those heretical views which he tolerates? Including, not only naming the views, but also giving the source of his alleged tolerance?

This is a rather bold statement about the current Pope, and should not slide along without clarification.

I’m trying to answer this in a way that doesn’t break forum rules.

I think it’s fair to say that at the recent Consistory/Synod opening meeting, he allowed/tolerated heterodox proposals on the issue of communion for the remarried.

 

[felsguy]

Pope Francis seems to have the opinon that it is a big tent and he seems to welcome dissenting views. He at least tollerates views that are more heretical than the SSPX’s I see no reason to think he could not do as he wishes with the SSPX.

**Perhaps you could elucidate those heretical views which he tolerates? ** Including, not only naming the views, but also giving the source of his alleged tolerance?

This is a rather bold statement about the current Pope, and should not slide along without clarification.

Nice try.

I was born at night. But not last night.

Just to clarify here, are you saying that you cannot…or will not?

 

[McCall1981]

Perhaps you could elucidate those heretical views which he tolerates? Including, not only naming the views, but also giving the source of his alleged tolerance?

This is a rather bold statement about the current Pope, and should not slide along without clarification.

Just to clarify here, are you saying that you cannot…or will not?

For the record, I started to answer the question, then deleted, I don’t think Hoosier Daddy can answer without getting an infraction.

 

[felsguy]

For the record, I started to answer the question, then deleted, I don’t think Hoosier Daddy can answer without getting an infraction.

Confused all the more now. I’ll just move on

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I wish I could attribute core beliefs to those I’ve never met.
I do not, and have never advocated for women to in able to be ordained.
I do not and have never advocated that gay couples should be able to marry in the church.
I do believe that gay couples should be able to enjoy a civil marriage.

Yes, just so in the future you can explain my views, my history:
Baby boomer
BA Degree
MA Degree
Spent whole life on Northern California
Attend a huge Jesuit Parish
Daughter attended Catholic schools INCLUDING undergrad and law school.

I did not mean to insinuate you or accuse you of any attitudes at all.

No need to justify yourself to me.