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Esrb99
Guest
Hear hear!!!
Pope Francis restricts celebration of EF Mass by Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate
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Sirach2
Guest
Rich C,
Your inbox for PM’s is full. So I’ll answer your question here, since perhaps others might not know what OCDS stands for, and since we are talking about Orders here …
It stands for Order of Carmelites Discalced, Secular. Thanks for asking. It is based on the charisms of St. Teresa of Avila, not the original order, which is called OCarm. Discalced means “without shoes” - but of course, we seculars wear them. The sisters wear sandals.
Your inbox for PM’s is full. So I’ll answer your question here, since perhaps others might not know what OCDS stands for, and since we are talking about Orders here …
It stands for Order of Carmelites Discalced, Secular. Thanks for asking. It is based on the charisms of St. Teresa of Avila, not the original order, which is called OCarm. Discalced means “without shoes” - but of course, we seculars wear them. The sisters wear sandals.
R
Rich_C
Guest
Thanks for indulging my curiosity!Rich C,
Your inbox for PM’s is full. So I’ll answer your question here, since perhaps others might not know what OCDS stands for, and since we are talking about Orders here …
It stands for Order of Carmelites Discalced, Secular. Thanks for asking. It is based on the charisms of St. Teresa of Avila, not the original order, which is called OCarm. Discalced means “without shoes” - but of course, we seculars wear them. The sisters wear sandals.
Do they have a cool lapel pin you can get? I have been meaning to get some for the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary since I joined. I must get around to that.
J
JReducation
Guest
The seraphic missal was not a rite. It was an older form of the EF. The EF as we now know it grew out an old Franciscan tradition. The story is that St. Francis asked the Holy Father for a simpler form of the mass. There was a missal that some people refer to as the Mass of St Peter. It was rarely used, usually at the Holy See on special occasions.
The friars used it and it spread as the order spread. When Trent and Pius V came along, that form of the mass was so commonly used that it became the norm for the Roman Rite with some modifications that Trent and later Pope Pius made. That’s where the friars and Rome parted company.
Rome allowed the friars to continue to celebrate the mass as they had been doing, while it modified what the friars had made popular. This version of the mass was published in a missal known as the Seraphic Missal. It’s just a simpler form of the EF.
I think your proposal is an interesting one. I have not heard any interest among Franciscans in resurrecting the Seraphic Missal. My guess (only speculating here) is that Franciscans are satisfied because we have our own missal for the Ordinary Form and our own breviary as well. It can be celebrated in Latin or in the local language. You see it on EWTN everyday.
For Franciscans the concern is to be able to follow our liturgical calendar, break the barriers between priest and laity, especially between ordained and non ordained, and most importantly to offer the sacrifice as a fraternity. You see, in our context, the priest is looked at differently than in most circles.
We see our friar priests as brothers who serve the Church through the priestly ministry. But observe that word “brother”. When the mass is celebrated by a friar, from our point of view he’s a brother leading his brethren in worship and offering the sacrifice. He’s not disconnected. He’s one of us. This has always come through in the audible celebration of the mass, especially the canon. There was always a dialogue between the friars priest and the congregation. There were no prayers at the foot of the altar. We did not have the three Aves and the prayer to St. Michael at the end, nor did we have the last Gospel. In essence, the Seraphic mass looked more like today’s OF than it did like today’s EF. The EF has “personality” of its own.
There seems to be a preference for having the EF and OF, rather than the Seraphic Missal and the OF. The concern is that a Franciscan order cannot make THE FORM of the mass part of its identity. We are not a clerical family.
When you set up an institute around the form of the mass, you’re creating a clerical institute. After all, who leads the celebration of the mass? It’s the clerics.
If you make the form of the mass central to the charism of the Franciscan order, you rob the order from its fraternal charism, which is what Francis founded. A man or woman does not join the Franciscan family for the sake of a form of the mass. He joins to be a son or daughter of St. Francis by living the Gospel as he lived it and exercising his or her apostolic action, whatever that may be, according to the mind of Francis.
In a strange sense, to lock in the EF as the only mass that a Franciscan community can celebrate, when the EF is extraordinary, is incompatible with the Franciscan charism, because it makes the EF part of the charism. That was never the case.
As I showed in the early paragraph. Francis tried very hard to simplify the mass and the breviary precisely to protect the charism of the order. His argument was that the mass and breviary as they were celebrated in his diocese required too many books and too many artifacts that violated Holy Poverty.
Had there been no other option, he would have gone along with it. He dearly loved the mass and the LOTH. But as long as there was an option to have the best of both worlds: liturgy and poverty, he was going to go that route.
Each Franciscan community has had to struggle to deal with SP so as to allow the friars the opportunity to use the EF, but at the same time preserve the original charism of the order. That being: poverty, obedience and fraternity.
Fraternity is the kicker here. Superiors do not cease to be brothers. Therefore, we do not cease to be subjects. I can only order my brothers what the Church allows me to command, what Francis allows me to command and what the brothers themselves allow me to command. I can’t pull out new rules out of my sleeve.
Even if we take something to the general chapter and the majority of the brothers vote in favor, I as superior cannot enforce it until it is ratified by the Holy Father. Peter has the last word on whether or not what the chapter has decided will lead us to our salvation. In this regard, Peter cannot be wrong. Peter cannot approve a way of life that leads to eternal damnation. He may be mistaken in the implementation, but not in the essence. It is the essence that is run past the pope.
If there is a question an apostolic visitor or administrator is appointed to speak for the pope. He decides what is essential for our salvation and what is not. That which is not cannot be made normative without Peter’s permission. The EF is definitely not essential for our salvation. The Eucharist is essential. The Church has already given us the Ordinary Form in our own Roman-Franciscan Missal.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
Thank you, Brother JR for shedding light on this. 
When I saw the headlines, I knew they were most likely overblown. But I figured I’d wait for you to clear things up rather than go investigating on my own. 
When I saw the headlines, I knew they were most likely overblown. But I figured I’d wait for you to clear things up rather than go investigating on my own.
J
JReducation
Guest
Friar Angelo has posted an update, in case anyone has not seen it.
**Update:
Many of the comments in the blogosphere about Pope Francis concerning his decision in regard to our Institute are simply disgraceful, and “justified” by the most tenuous rationalizations. He is the Vicar of Christ. It is less than twenty-four hours since this hit the Internet and so many think they have got it all figured out. I have also seen sheer fabrications about the situation in our Institute within some of these comments. May God have mercy on us. Thank God for all the holy popes we have had for the past fifty years, who all have had much to suffer.**
maryvictrix.com/2013/07/29/the-fis-and-pope-francis/#comment-16380
I want to share it, because I have often been charged by radical liberals and radical traditionalists of popolatry (sp?) for my defense of the post Vatican II popes and for my constant reminder that we (Franciscans) do believe in unquestioning obedience to popes and bishops. It’s not something that I pull out of my sleeve. It really angers us when people those outside of the Franciscan community comment on our affairs in a way that is contrary to what is normative for us and when they look at us for what they can get from us, rather than appreciate who we are. For example, right now the lament is “We won’t have friars to celebrate the EF”. To us, that’s offensive. It looks at us in a utilitarian way. It places the focus only on the friars who can celebrate the mass, thus ignoring the whole charism of fraternity of equals and it ignores our most important charism: obedience, obedience, obedience. We were not founded to celebrate masses, run clinics, schools or preach missions. We were founded to obey obey obey. For that purpose we detach from everything, including the EF if necessary.
It is our wish that those who look at us grow in appreciation of this gift of faith. In today’s world where people attach to what they want and forget what is truly essential, it is refreshing to see men and women who detach from what they and others want in order to BE like Christ, obedient even unto death.
For us, it is normative to bow to the pope and if the pope says that we must fix something, we never doubt that he is right. We ALWAYS assume that it is we who are wrong, because we are worthless creatures in his presence as taught to us by Francis and Clare.
That last part of Friar Angelo’s statement, "thank God for the holy popes of the last 50 years reflects what 1.7 million Franciscans believe, with the exception of a few renegades who have joined the ranks of the SSPX or Marxist. Both choices contrary to the mind of our Seraphic Father and Holy Mother Clare and a serious violation of the Holy Rule.
**Update:
Many of the comments in the blogosphere about Pope Francis concerning his decision in regard to our Institute are simply disgraceful, and “justified” by the most tenuous rationalizations. He is the Vicar of Christ. It is less than twenty-four hours since this hit the Internet and so many think they have got it all figured out. I have also seen sheer fabrications about the situation in our Institute within some of these comments. May God have mercy on us. Thank God for all the holy popes we have had for the past fifty years, who all have had much to suffer.**
maryvictrix.com/2013/07/29/the-fis-and-pope-francis/#comment-16380
I want to share it, because I have often been charged by radical liberals and radical traditionalists of popolatry (sp?) for my defense of the post Vatican II popes and for my constant reminder that we (Franciscans) do believe in unquestioning obedience to popes and bishops. It’s not something that I pull out of my sleeve. It really angers us when people those outside of the Franciscan community comment on our affairs in a way that is contrary to what is normative for us and when they look at us for what they can get from us, rather than appreciate who we are. For example, right now the lament is “We won’t have friars to celebrate the EF”. To us, that’s offensive. It looks at us in a utilitarian way. It places the focus only on the friars who can celebrate the mass, thus ignoring the whole charism of fraternity of equals and it ignores our most important charism: obedience, obedience, obedience. We were not founded to celebrate masses, run clinics, schools or preach missions. We were founded to obey obey obey. For that purpose we detach from everything, including the EF if necessary.
It is our wish that those who look at us grow in appreciation of this gift of faith. In today’s world where people attach to what they want and forget what is truly essential, it is refreshing to see men and women who detach from what they and others want in order to BE like Christ, obedient even unto death.
For us, it is normative to bow to the pope and if the pope says that we must fix something, we never doubt that he is right. We ALWAYS assume that it is we who are wrong, because we are worthless creatures in his presence as taught to us by Francis and Clare.
That last part of Friar Angelo’s statement, "thank God for the holy popes of the last 50 years reflects what 1.7 million Franciscans believe, with the exception of a few renegades who have joined the ranks of the SSPX or Marxist. Both choices contrary to the mind of our Seraphic Father and Holy Mother Clare and a serious violation of the Holy Rule.
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TimothyH
Guest
The second most sold book in history, so I am told, is “The Imitation of Christ”. I am afraid that in spite of this, people don’t want to really imitate Christ and actually say, “Not my will but thy will be done.” To say this to your wife, boss, neighbor or even to a total stranger is difficult, but it is a way to imitate Christ.
I learned it from the Benedictines. Obedience is not blindly following someone without questioning but is to prefer the will of another to one’s own will. Obedience is to learn to say “not my will but thy will be done” habitually, and in so doing to imitate Christ. To detach from our own will, to forget oneself is one of the most difficult things to do for a human being.
I’m not sure why I am replying with what I just typed, but I hope it helps someone understand obedience as a virtue, as learning to prefer the will of another rather than the commonly held understanding of obedience as a weakness, as blindly following like a sheep.
-Tim-
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Joe_5859
Guest
It is sad that we often have the tendency to latch onto headlines and immediately seek to plug it into the narrative framework we have concoted to explain how everything works. Any story that comes our way gets immediately absorbed and used as evidence that we are right.
Yes, may God have mercy on us.
Yes, may God have mercy on us.
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ProVobis
Guest
I’m not that familiar with the Seraphic MIssal, but does it employ the ancient Roman canon, which Trent protected?
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vames
Guest
I saw that in certain circles Fr Angelo’s post is already dismissed as not being representative, as long as he is “hostile to traditionalists” and “vehement against the EF”. So it seems that the Franciscans and this decree are indeed being used in a war of other people (no, not the secular media) who have a clear agenda: to prove that Pope Francis, being a Modernist, will overturn Summorum Pontificum and will ban the EF (“I told you that he is a hater of the EF! FFSP will be next! The end times prophecies come true!”).
I find very annoying that the opinions of these people are based on contempt for Pope Francis, looked down upon as a Third World man with not enough education, intelligence and refinement to understand the deep theology and aesthetics of the EF. The stereotype of the dumb barbarian who wants to destroy Our High Culture (and, in this case, to promote or at least accept clown masses and all kind of liturgical abuses).
Some useful lessons from the “barbarian”:
vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/gmg-26831/
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure all Western liturgical rites/forms/uses developed before Vatican II use(d) the Roman Canon exclusively or a moderate variation of it.
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Lormar
Guest
Sirach, I agree with you, but please don’t think that any one side is less culpable than the other. Both “sides” are guilty of not acting as they should. I understand only too well how easy it is to think that our side is “without sin”, but such is not the case. Both suffer from lack of charity, understanding, and patience; both have knee-jerk reactions to hot button topics.
I’m with you on your remedy - prayer, sacrifice, and maybe fasting wouldn’t be a bad idea either. I, too, am tired of all of the mud slinging and name calling on both sides; I am equally as sick of all of the animosity and division. It is easy to get roped into and very hard to get out of once the descent has begun.
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Lormar
Guest
Tim, thank you for your post.
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Rich_C
Guest
I couldn’t find the right words to say this, so thank you for writing it.
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CB_Catholic
Guest
No it’s not one of the smartest comments. It is a comment illustrating how often some of the laity still cannot accept that some things are just not our business. We have no right to speculate on how the Franciscans or any other order should do things or to believe that we know better than the Pope. I guess Br. JR’s extensive explanations still did not sink in, did they?
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Lormar
Guest
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Rich_C
Guest
I have seem some shocking things written about the Holy Father, but I have never seen this argument myself.
The EF Mass is a Mass of the people. It appeals to children and peasants and proles. Both the young at heart and the old. Symbolism and aesthetics are for the young and the simple, after all.
If I should ever see someone using that line of attack you suggested I’d remind them of that.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
In fact, what I said has not much at all to do with this recent issue.
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Melchior_1
Guest
He said that he thinks that we should open up access to different Rites and Forms, including the Seraphic Missal - which would have several benefits for several parties. I’m not seeing how that’s not a bad idea. Would you rather YTC say “EF only forever!”? instead of him wanting to embrace some of the other Rites and Forms?
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triumphguy
Guest
It wouldn’t surprise me if Pope Francis didn’t allow new local forms of existing rites to flower.
Pope Benedict added the Anglican Use.
Perhaps some will be allowed from within the catholic church.
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