Pope Francis restricts celebration of EF Mass by Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate

[Gidge]

Funny you should say that, because this investigation only started after some members decided they couldn’t live with the EF anymore.

They started “clamoring” and they got their way. They even got their founder removed. Who really had a problem with obedience?

Fr. Stefano Manelli is gone ? I did not know this.

 

[moon1234]

It may be that postulants are attracted to an order where the EF is freely celebrated, but is not the exclusive Mass that is said. By restricting the EF within this religious community it may have a chilling effect on the influx of new candidates.

If I was still young and had to discern that I had a religious vocation (I am married now), I would not be able to discount my preference for the EF. I can tolerate the OF if there are no abuses, but it is not my preference. If this type of decree were made before I took vows, I would seriously consider leaving for a different order. I could not live my whole life in perpetual frustration.

This may be why orders such as the FSSP, ICRSS and even the Canons regular of St. John Cantius are growing so quickly. The last being an order that freely offers both the OF and EF. With this most recent decree, if it were me, I would think I would seriously look more towards the ICRSS or the FSSP.

I doubt these types of issues are really given that much thought though before a general decree is issued.

 

[Rich_C]

It depends on what the decision of the relevant Superior General was. Without that permission, per the moto proprio, the EF could not have been used.

If we hold that all clergy everywhere should be bound by obedience to obey the dictates of the moto proprio, then any acts contrary to that moto proprio should be condemned, correct?

My understanding is that the spread of the TLM within the FFI ranks came from top-down approval. Of course, now we’ve learned that their superior general was removed and replaced by a Capuchin friar so the previously position is now irrelevent.

In any case, I’ll will still pray, pay and obey. I will have to get over being upset but I’m not yet.

 

[YoungTradCath]

It may be that postulants are attracted to an order where the EF is freely celebrated, but is not the exclusive Mass that is said. By restricting the EF within this religious community it may have a chilling effect on the influx of new candidates.

That is my prediction, yes.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

It may be that postulants are attracted to an order where the EF is freely celebrated, but is not the exclusive Mass that is said. By restricting the EF within this religious community it may have a chilling effect on the influx of new candidates.
YoungTradCath;11037969:

That is my prediction, yes.

And, IMHO, if the form of the Mass that is celebrated is what is drawing people to an order, that is very sad!

There is much more to this story that we will ever, or should ever know.
Why can’t we just accept the fact that the Holy Father is making the right decision for this community, at this moment in time?

 

[Sirach2]

From the OP's link:

They want to be faithful to tradition, in full respect for the magisterium of the Church. So much so that in their communities they celebrate Masses both in the ancient rite and in the modern rite, as moreover do hundreds of religious communities around the world - the Benedictines of Norcia, to give just one example - applying the spirit and the letter of the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum" of Benedict XVI.

But precisely this was contested by a core group of internal dissidents, who appealed to the Vatican authorities complaining of the excessive propensity of their congregation to celebrate the Mass in the ancient rite, with the effect of creating exclusion and opposition within the communities, of undermining internal unity and, worse, of weakening the more general “sentire cum Ecclesia.”

It is not given for us to know the details, but reading between the lines, if the core group is truthful about the “excessive propensity” to celebrate the TLM, it does create division, since P.E. Benedict has always stated that the OF is to first be offered as the primary celebration, with allowances for the TLM if circumstances permit an additional liturgy. Celebrating the OF is really a right that takes precedence over the clergy’s personal preference to celebrate the TLM.

Let’s not grumble about matters that we know nothing about and read more into it than need be.

 

[Rich_C]

And, IMHO, if the form of the Mass that is celebrated is what is drawing people to an order, that is very sad!

I think it’s sad that someone’s dislike of the EF started this mess.

There is much more to this story that we will ever, or should ever know.
Why can’t we just accept the fact that the Holy Father is making the right decision for this community, at this moment in time?

We can accept and still mourn for a while, I think.

 

[triumphguy]

I think it’s sad that someone’s dislike of the EF started this mess.
**
We don’t know that, nor can we infer that. **

We can accept and still mourn for a while, I think.

We cannot judge what’s happened since we don’t know what’s happened.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

No one’s argued otherwise. It’s still a tragedy for a number of our fellow Catholics.

Meaning no disrespect, but: I was just in Haiti. A “tragedy” is 500,000 fellow human beings living in horrific squalor in the mega-slum of Cité Soleil. The liturgical situation you refer to is, perhaps, a frustration. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist remains available to the community in question.

 

[Joe_5859]

I would guess (with 99.9% certainty) that this decision in this case has more to do with the actual community involved than with Pope Francis’ opinion on the EF or the Ordinary Form of the mass.

That’s what I’m inclined to think, too. I’m not familiar with the community in question, but I wouldn’t read into the decision as having any implications beyond those for the individual community.

 

[Rich_C]

We cannot judge what’s happened since we don’t know what’s happened.

Hey all I’m saying is that this allegedly began over a complaint by an FFI member over having so many TLMs at his place. If he liked it, why take this to the top? I’m just using common sense here.

 

[Rich_C]

Meaning no disrespect, but: I was just in Haiti. A “tragedy” is 500,000 fellow human beings living in horrific squalor in the mega-slum of Cité Soleil. The liturgical situation you refer to is, perhaps, a frustration. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist remains available to the community in question.

Time will tell.

 

[OraLabora]

And, IMHO, if the form of the Mass that is celebrated is what is drawing people to an order, that is very sad!

There is much more to this story that we will ever, or should ever know.
Why can’t we just accept the fact that the Holy Father is making the right decision for this community, at this moment in time?

You are exactly right. The first and foremost reason to join an order should be to seek God following the charism of that order. Few orders make it the principle point of their charism to celebrate the EF Mass (the FFSP btw, is not an but a Society of Apostolic life). Some do use the EF: Benedictines of Norcia, Fontgombault and Barroux for instance, but thei primary charism is Benedictine.

I’m reminded of a young postulant who tried to become a Benedictine at an abbey, which though it celebrates the OF only, is otherwise very traditional (Gregorian chant, extensive use of Latin, conservative. views, etc). He selected the abbey for those reasons.

The novice master quickly filtered him out for not really specifically seeking God within the context of Benedictine spirituality. It doesn’t mean he was unfit to serve God elsewhere, but unless clearly attracted to the charism of the order, the novice master rightly decided that investing heavily in his formation was too risky. That is the purpose of “discernment”.

 

[triumphguy]

Meaning no disrespect, but: I was just in Haiti. A “tragedy” is 500,000 fellow human beings living in horrific squalor in the mega-slum of Cité Soleil. The liturgical situation you refer to is, perhaps, a frustration. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist remains available to the community in question.

Thanks for adding your perspective.

 

[OraLabora]

Time will tell.

Are you claiming it may not be because they only celebrate the OF Mass?

 

[triumphguy]

Hey all I’m saying is that this allegedly began over a complaint by an FFI member over having so many TLMs at his place. If he liked it, why take this to the top? I’m just using common sense here.

Was it because of the form of the mass or because of some sort of dissention and internal conflict we know nothing about?

For instance my kids squabble about stuff - but it’s not the “stuff” that they are really squabbling about, but about ownership, power or control.

 

[Rich_C]

Was it because of the form of the mass or because of some sort of dissention and internal conflict we know nothing about?

For instance my kids squabble about stuff - but it’s not the “stuff” that they are really squabbling about, but about ownership, power or control.

If the simplest answer is usually truest, it appears to be the Mass.

Anyway, I have gotten too angry about this and I will sin at this rate if I haven’t already.

It’s just very sad and I’m afraid the order’s vocations will suffer because of it.

 

[triumphguy]

If the simplest answer is usually truest, it appears to be the Mass.

Anyway, I have gotten too angry about this and I will sin at this rate if I haven’t already.

It’s just very sad and I’m afraid the order’s vocations will suffer because of it.

True and sad. The order is inspirational.

 

[Brendan]

My understanding is that the spread of the TLM within the FFI ranks came from top-down approval. Of course, now we’ve learned that their **superior general was removed **and replaced by a Capuchin friar so the previously position is now irrelevent.

In any case, I’ll will still pray, pay and obey. I will have to get over being upset but I’m not yet.

IIRC, they would have a Prior, but not a Superior General (or General Minister in Franciscian terms) . I believe they are of the OFM Conv ‘branch’ so they would be under the OFM Conv General Minister.

 

[Rich_C]

IIRC, they would have a Prior, but not a Superior General (or General Minister in Franciscian terms) . I believe they are of the OFM Conv ‘branch’ so they would be under the OFM Conv General Minister.

I stand corrected. Really, I am a dumb ox when it comes to religious orders. Or apparitions for that matter. I am a nuts and bolts kind of guy.