Pope Francis says wasting food is like stealing from the poor

[Bubba_Switzler]

The U.N. is being referenced here because it provides figures on the aid levels of various governments and because developed countries agreed as part of the U.N. to provide a specific minimum level of aid. Which they have consistently failed to meet.

I’m pretty sure that those targets are not binding and the question remains.

What are “formal institutions”?

If I give to Catholic Charities that is included in the number I cited. If I give to a bum on the street that is not.

I certainly agree that there are multiple factors that combine to create world poverty. I simply don’t think it’s wise to assume that “my government will take care of this problem.” Governments clearly don’t.

Agreed that governments don’t solve the problem (whoever believed that?) but I think you are going to be led astray by the phrase “create world poverty”. In fact, poverty is the natural state of man and it takes positive effort to rise out of it. A good first step, then, is to look at those who have risin out of poverty and see what they did right.

 

[gracepoole]

The U.N. is being referenced here because it provides figures on the aid levels of various governments and because developed countries agreed as part of the U.N. to provide a specific minimum level of aid. Which they have consistently failed to meet.

I’m pretty sure that those targets are not binding and the question remains.

If you believe the U.S. and other countries that agreed to donate at a certain level have the right not to do so…I got nothin’.

If I give to Catholic Charities that is included in the number I cited. If I give to a bum on the street that is not.

Yes, clearly. But I wasn’t discussing the generosity of American individuals (that’s another story). I’m guessing, too, that you’re not on the streets of Darfur passing out money informally. So that money you’re giving is not overseas aid.

Agreed that governments don’t solve the problem (whoever believed that?)

As I said, Monica’s comment in post #6 (“I am pretty sure the US Government (and other governments ) provides massive amounts of food aid”) suggests that we may rely on governments to give enough.

but I think you are going to be led astray by the phrase “create world poverty”. In fact, poverty is the natural state of man and it takes positive effort to rise out of it. A good first step, then, is to look at those who have risin out of poverty and see what they did right.

Do you acknowledge that there are those who cannot “rise out of poverty” by their own devices? Do you acknowledge that there are those who are making every effort possible and still live in poverty? The average Congolese citizen earns $280 dollars a year and dies at 48. Are they just not doing enough “right” things to rise up out of poverty?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

If you believe the U.S. and other countries that agreed to donate at a certain level have the right not to do so…I got nothin’.

Yes, clearly. But I wasn’t discussing the generosity of American individuals (that’s another story). I’m guessing, too, that you’re not on the streets of Darfur passing out money informally. So that money you’re giving is not overseas aid.

I’m not as impressed with the UN as you seem to be but while informal charity doesn’t typically go inernational, many institutional charities do.

As I said, Monica’s comment in post #6 (“I am pretty sure the US Government (and other governments ) provides massive amounts of food aid”) suggests that we may rely on governments to give enough.
That was your inference. Her statement was correct, though.

Do you acknowledge that there are those who cannot “rise out of poverty” by their own devices? Do you acknowledge that there are those who are making every effort possible and still live in poverty? The average Congolese citizen earns $280 dollars a year and dies at 48. Are they just not doing enough “right” things to rise up out of poverty?

You either did not stop to think about what I wrote or you decided to ignore it.

Do you acknowledge that throughout most of human history people lived in absolute poverty? Are you really so willing to ignore the lessons of human history?

 

[Santi2]

I agree food should not be wasted when that food can be used to feed others who don’t have that luxury. Can you imagine how much food is thrown away at restaurants and hotels. All that food could be sent to homeless shelters.

There is one chain of sandwich shop that I know which donates leftover food products to charities. They had a shop a few doors down the road from my law firm which was once preposterously instructed by local authorities to bin all sandwiches when the shop closed at 5:30 P.M. The shop manager piled all the sandwiches and fruit trays by the road bin and stood by them until most were collected by passersby who were horrified at the sight of food being thrown away.

pret.co.uk/pret_foundation_trust/charity_run.htm

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Perhaps a different type of “waste” is paying farmers to NOT PRODUCE food in the first place - artificially limiting the supply of something in order to keep prices artificially high (price supports) and using tax dollars to do it. While not strictly “waste” of food, it would seem to be a waste of land.

 

[markomalley]

The one thing that most offends me (as a conservative) is the government mandate to use ethanol in our fuel.

Because of the increased demand for ethanol, a tremendous amount of corn is being grown and corn that is being grown is, rather than being used for food, being converted into alcohol.

Has anybody seen the price of corn-on-the-cob at the grocery store recently? (I was just at Giant yesterday and it was on the order of $2.50 for 3 ears – which, to me, was unbelievable)

What does this do to the price of corn in developing countries (where it is a staple)?

And, for those who would claim that it reduces our dependence on fossil fuels, I would point out that corn is very hard on the soil – it just sucks the nitrogen out of it… Under normal circumstances, farmers typically rotate crops to replenish the soil, but these days, with the price of corn? They dump tons of fertilizer (much of which is made from petroleum) on the soil so that it will grow corn at decent yields.

That is waste on a grand scale…and it is directly from the consumerism of the farmers enabled by excessive government regulation. And, oh by the way, as an added bonus, it directly results in a lot of poor people not being able to afford to buy food to survive.

 

[gracepoole]

Do you acknowledge that there are those who cannot “rise out of poverty” by their own devices? Do you acknowledge that there are those who are making every effort possible and still live in poverty? The average Congolese citizen earns $280 dollars a year and dies at 48. Are they just not doing enough “right” things to rise up out of poverty?

You either did not stop to think about what I wrote or you decided to ignore it.

Do you acknowledge that throughout most of human history people lived in absolute poverty? Are you really so willing to ignore the lessons of human history?

You wrote, “In fact, poverty is the natural state of man and it takes positive effort to rise out of it. A good first step, then, is to look at those who have risin out of poverty and see what they did right.” My point is simply that many can’t “rise out of poverty” without massive assistance. I’m not sure we actually disagree on this point. Or do we?

I’m not as impressed with the UN as you seem to be but while informal charity doesn’t typically go inernational, many institutional charities do.

I’m not impressed with the U.N. But the U.S. is a U.N. member country. Can’t deny that reality.

That was your inference. Her statement was correct, though.

Here is Monica’s original post:

"People are not starving because of old lasagna in the back of the fridge or any other food that gets thrown out and wasted. I try to not do this because it is a poor use of my resources but most starvation is due to political oppression and famine.

I am pretty sure the US Government (and other governments ) provides massive amounts of food aid. Various charities kick in too.

We just threw out a whole pie because the crust had some unidentified black stuff on it - what were we supposed to do - eat a possibly tainted pie or go to confession?"

I don’t think my inference is illegitimate. But if I’m wrong, I’m happy to acknowledge it. As for whether her assertion was correct…yes, I guess if you consider 0.32% GDP “massive.”

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

You wrote, “In fact, poverty is the natural state of man and it takes positive effort to rise out of it. A good first step, then, is to look at those who have risin out of poverty and see what they did right.” My point is simply that many can’t “rise out of poverty” without massive assistance. I’m not sure we actually disagree on this point. Or do we?

We can’t know who cannot rise out of poverty without massive assistance but we know historically everyone who is now out of poverty has done so. That includes Europe, where escape from the natural state of poverty began, and North America but also within the last century Latin America and Asia.

Whether or not the process of escaping from poverty can be accelerated by assistance, massive or otherwise, is an open question. It is particularly problematic to assist the suffering in countries that are in a state of civil war. Good luck trying to help the starving in North Korea.

I’m not impressed with the U.N. But the U.S. is a U.N. member country. Can’t deny that reality.

I dont need to deny US membership in the UN to be uninterested in what the UN says about this. Aside from my lack of enthusiam for the UN, I am not the US ambassador to the UN.

Here is Monica’s original post:

"People are not starving because of old lasagna in the back of the fridge or any other food that gets thrown out and wasted. I try to not do this because it is a poor use of my resources but most starvation is due to political oppression and famine.

I am pretty sure the US Government (and other governments ) provides massive amounts of food aid. Various charities kick in too.

We just threw out a whole pie because the crust had some unidentified black stuff on it - what were we supposed to do - eat a possibly tainted pie or go to confession?"

I don’t think my inference is illegitimate. But if I’m wrong, I’m happy to acknowledge it. As for whether her assertion was correct…yes, I guess if you consider 0.32% GDP “massive.”

Not everyone judges a gift by the cost to the giver.

 

[stellina]

I agree, but there is a definite culture of waste and excess in our society. Buffets where people take more than they can eat just because…social functions where “more is better” seems to be the rule of catering…I can even think of one or two restaurants which pride themselves on serving large portions of unhealthy food which they boast in their own advertising is harmful to their patrons…That kind of behavior is most definitely sinful.

Also as a nation, taking more than our share because we have a trade advantage and can impact global food prices and then turning around to give back a little of our excess, is not quite my idea of true charity

I’m not even going to touch this tiresome “global economy” argument because others in this thread have done a better job of explaining why you are wrong. I’m fed up with the sanctimonious anti-American routine too. And I’m not going to apologize for treating myself to a buffet and leaving a couple cubes of cheese, the end of a roll, and some dried-up potatoes on my plate.

Restaurants and caterers are businesses that operate by giving people what they want. Otherwise they wouldn’t exist. There are some who go to a buffet and overeat and there are some who go to the same buffet and eat sensibly. The person who goes to the heart attack hamburger place in Las Vegas and signs a waiver doesn’t have a gun pointed at his head.

My grandmother also had no patience for those who enjoyed the benefits of citizenship in this country but constantly found fault with it. She was an illiterate Italian immigrant who never had a square meal until she landed at Ellis Island. Even after coming here, she and my grandfather struggled for years to put food on the table. To her, abundance was a blessing. For Sunday dinner, she made enough for a small army because she could - because she was able to provide what she couldn’t even dream of before she came here. You didn’t dare leave her table unless you were stuffed to the point of pain. But I guess we were just part of the culture of waste and excess.

 

[gracepoole]

We can’t know who cannot rise out of poverty without massive assistance but we know historically everyone who is now out of poverty has done so. That includes Europe, where escape from the natural state of poverty began, and North America but also within the last century Latin America and Asia.

Whether or not the process of escaping from poverty can be accelerated by assistance, massive or otherwise, is an open question. It is particularly problematic to assist the suffering in countries that are in a state of civil war. Good luck trying to help the starving in North Korea.

I’m not disputing the fact that various governments make it exceedingly difficult if not impossible to help many who live in poverty. Of course, many others remain who can be helped. Thousands of lives have been saved in Sudan and South Sudan, for example, thanks to the efforts of individuals partnered with non-profit organizations – even though both countries have experienced tremendous government corruption and civil war. Who knows how many more could or could have been saved? Don’t we have a moral imperative to make the attempt?

 

[gracepoole]

I’m not even going to touch this tiresome “global economy” argument because others in this thread have done a better job of explaining why you are wrong. I’m fed up with the sanctimonious anti-American routine too. And I’m not going to apologize for treating myself to a buffet and leaving a couple cubes of cheese, the end of a roll, and some dried-up potatoes on my plate.

Restaurants and caterers are businesses that operate by giving people what they want. Otherwise they wouldn’t exist. There are some who go to a buffet and overeat and there are some who go to the same buffet and eat sensibly. The person who goes to the heart attack hamburger place in Las Vegas and signs a waiver doesn’t have a gun pointed at his head.

My grandmother also had no patience for those who enjoyed the benefits of citizenship in this country but constantly found fault with it. She was an illiterate Italian immigrant who never had a square meal until she landed at Ellis Island. Even after coming here, she and my grandfather struggled for years to put food on the table. To her, abundance was a blessing. For Sunday dinner, she made enough for a small army because she could - because she was able to provide what she couldn’t even dream of before she came here. You didn’t dare leave her table unless you were stuffed to the point of pain. But I guess we were just part of the culture of waste and excess.

I realize you were responding to a specific poster’s comments, but are you also rejected Pope Francis’ comments then, as well?

 

[Ridgerunner]

My grandmother also had no patience for those who enjoyed the benefits of citizenship in this country but constantly found fault with it. She was an illiterate Italian immigrant who never had a square meal until she landed at Ellis Island. Even after coming here, she and my grandfather struggled for years to put food on the table. To her, abundance was a blessing. For Sunday dinner, she made enough for a small army because she could - because she was able to provide what she couldn’t even dream of before she came here. You didn’t dare leave her table unless you were stuffed to the point of pain. But I guess we were just part of the culture of waste and excess.

I don’t think of that as a “culture of waste and excess”. To me, it’s more a matter of a kindly culture that was out of place in it’s time and locale.

This puts me to mind of a time I was invited to Thanksgiving Dinner by a classmate in college. I was to be in his city anyway for an interscholastic event, and accepted. The family was, i believe, Slovak, and not all that long off the boat it seemed. This was in a totally Slovak neighberhood (as I was told) in Chicago.

The food was very good and I ate a bit too much, but then gave up. The classmate’s father then announced “Mama, we’ve failed. He doesn’t like the food.” Despite my truthful responses that the food was wonderful (and it was) nothing would do other than my eating some more until I had consumed the requisite amount, which I thought perhaps was twice my body weight or something. (visions of the possible virtues of Roman vomitoria came to mind). I really don’t think the father was being unkind to me or his wife. It was just some kind of cultural thing that they all understood.

But it was a cultural thing. Undoubtedly those people came from a place of scarcity into a land where, to them, food was unbelievably abundant and cheap. They carried what was probably an old pattern of doing without for days in order to be generous to a guest on a special day, into a place where they, themselves, did not have to do without, ever, but still measured generosity to a guest by the amount of rich food he consumed.

To me, such patterns undoubtedly fade in time. My classmate himself has probably, by now, gone on his fifth diet/exercise program, and his kids might have shed the old world pattern of using consumption as a yardstick of hospitality, entirely.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I realize you were responding to a specific poster’s comments, but are you also rejected Pope Francis’ comments then, as well?

Nobody is questioning Pope Francis’ concern for the poor. But even those who have tried to leverage his comemnt into a cricicism of western civilization have so far balked at defending his literal words.

I may be a little rusty on my catechism, but I’m pretty sure that stealing from the poor is a grave sin. If wasting food is like stealing from the poor is it too, now, a grave sin?

If you want to be the first in this thread to defend his actual words, be my guest. Otherwise, I think we are all left to “interpret” his meaning.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I’m not disputing the fact that various governments make it exceedingly difficult if not impossible to help many who live in poverty. Of course, many others remain who can be helped. Thousands of lives have been saved in Sudan and South Sudan, for example, thanks to the efforts of individuals partnered with non-profit organizations – even though both countries have experienced tremendous government corruption and civil war. Who knows how many more could or could have been saved? Don’t we have a moral imperative to make the attempt?

It’s not just governments. Many people live in poverty because they make choices that keep them there. The best example are those addicated to narcotic drugs. But that also includes those who simply don’t know better. Education is an important component of any serious anti-poverty program.

Nobody is denying that charity has an important role to play. But the obsession with it detracts from other things that need to occur and can sometimes even be counter-productive. (Or, alternteively, charity can be more properly viewed as more than simply giving people stuff.) In western nations welfare programs have become a poverty trap.

I believe we have a moral obligation to think as well as act. The pope’s comments do not strike me as very thoughtful and here is why:

Waste is a natural feature of abundane. People value what is scarce, not what is abundant. The waste of food in “western nations” is a consequence of its abundance. Getting food from where it is to where it is scarce is important but not as simple as simply avoiding waste.

 

[gracepoole]

It’s not just governments. Many people live in poverty because they make choices that keep them there. The best example are those addicated to narcotic drugs. But that also includes those who simply don’t know better. Education is an important component of any serious anti-poverty program.

And this is why I offered comments about the Democratic Republic of Congo earlier. It’s easy to conflate assumptions about poverty here in the U.S. with world poverty. Third-world poverty (the kind, again, where someone makes $280 a year and dies at age 48) is not typically the result of poor individual decisions. Its causes may be complex but these aren’t drug addicts who’re wasting opportunities. These are people who don’t have opportunities to begin with.

Of course, there are also problems with the assumption that those living in poverty here in the U.S. are there because of their own decisions. Partake in a poverty simulation sometime and I think you’ll see this to be true.

Nobody is denying that charity has an important role to play. But the obsession with it detracts from other things that need to occur and can sometimes even be counter-productive. (Or, alternteively, charity can be more properly viewed as more than simply giving people stuff.) In western nations welfare programs have become a poverty trap.

I believe we have a moral obligation to think as well as act. The pope’s comments do not strike me as very thoughtful and here is why:

Waste is a natural feature of abundane. People value what is scarce, not what is abundant. The waste of food in “western nations” is a consequence of its abundance. Getting food from where it is to where it is scarce is important but not as simple as simply avoiding waste.

An obsession with charity is a bad thing? Guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I’ll also respectively disagree that the pope’s comments are not “very thoughtful.” On the contrary, I think most westerners have a paltry understanding of poverty compared with our pontiff, who is far more well-versed in its continuance.

 

[gracepoole]

I’m not even going to touch this tiresome “global economy” argument because others in this thread have done a better job of explaining why you are wrong. I’m fed up with the sanctimonious anti-American routine too. And I’m not going to apologize for treating myself to a buffet and leaving a couple cubes of cheese, the end of a roll, and some dried-up potatoes on my plate.

Restaurants and caterers are businesses that operate by giving people what they want. Otherwise they wouldn’t exist. There are some who go to a buffet and overeat and there are some who go to the same buffet and eat sensibly. The person who goes to the heart attack hamburger place in Las Vegas and signs a waiver doesn’t have a gun pointed at his head.

My grandmother also had no patience for those who enjoyed the benefits of citizenship in this country but constantly found fault with it. She was an illiterate Italian immigrant who never had a square meal until she landed at Ellis Island. Even after coming here, she and my grandfather struggled for years to put food on the table. To her, abundance was a blessing. For Sunday dinner, she made enough for a small army because she could - because she was able to provide what she couldn’t even dream of before she came here. You didn’t dare leave her table unless you were stuffed to the point of pain. But I guess we were just part of the culture of waste and excess.

I realize you were responding to a specific poster’s comments, but are you also rejected Pope Francis’ comments then, as well?

Nobody is questioning Pope Francis’ concern for the poor. But even those who have tried to leverage his comemnt into a cricicism of western civilization have so far balked at defending his literal words.

I may be a little rusty on my catechism, but I’m pretty sure that stealing from the poor is a grave sin. If wasting food is like stealing from the poor is it too, now, a grave sin?

If you want to be the first in this thread to defend his actual words, be my guest. Otherwise, I think we are all left to “interpret” his meaning.

I do appreciate your comments, but I’m actually more interested in stellina’s response to my question.

 

[WhatMeWorry]

There might be regulations but i think that they can have a loop hole, putting bleach on meat. That’s just wrong why do that , i mean why?

The main reason why supermarkets pour bleach on meat or produce that’s thrown out is to prevent dumpster divers from scavaging it. They don’t want anyone eating spoiled food and getting sick - and you know darn well with our litigious society, the lawyers would be lined up to to sue the store if some diver got half-poisoned from eating something bad.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

And this is why I offered comments about the Democratic Republic of Congo earlier. It’s easy to conflate assumptions about poverty here in the U.S. with world poverty. Third-world poverty (the kind, again, where someone makes $280 a year and dies at age 48) is not typically the result of poor individual decisions. Its causes may be complex but these aren’t drug addicts who’re wasting opportunities. These are people who don’t have opportunities to begin with.

Look, as I poined out previously, and I thought you agreed, the poverty of the Congo is not historically unique, it is normal. It only seems abnormal because virtually everyone else is doing better. Just read about the living condtions for the vast majority of Europeans before the 1800s. I think it’s disingenuous of you to pick out one example of bad choices and impute it to the entire nation of Congo.

Of course, there are also problems with the assumption that those living in poverty here in the U.S. are there because of their own decisions. Partake in a poverty simulation sometime and I think you’ll see this to be true.

As in the Congo, poverty in the US is also complex. But here the problem is overwhelmingly one of bad choices. That doesn’t mean we should do nothing but it does mean that giving stuff (e.g. food) is not going to solve it. Again, some deeper thinking is required.

An obsession with charity is a bad thing? Guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I’ll also respectively disagree that the pope’s comments are not “very thoughtful.” On the contrary, I think most westerners have a paltry understanding of poverty compared with our pontiff, who is far more well-versed in its continuance.

I am not suggesting a comparion of the pontiff’s understanding to “most westerners”. Most westerners don’t care. That’s a pretty low standard, don’t you think? The question is whether he is offering the best advice on the subject. That’s a much higher standard, and one I think is entirely appropriate given his responsibilities and influence.

But I see you have declined to defend the pope’s literal words.

 

[rlg94086]

The U.S. fails to meet the U.N.'s recommended donation level each year. Back in the 70’s, developed countries agreed to give 0.7% each of their gross national product. Since then, the U.S. has often been one of the worst in meeting this goal. And in 2011, the combined aid provided by these countries still didn’t even equal half of the amount promised. Charities are funded by us – if we don’t give, they can’t give.

Americans gave $298.42 billion to charity in 2011. That’s a lot. More is obviously better but I’m not sure what the UN has to do with that. (Is the UN now our magesterium?) And that figure doesn’t include all the charity that doesn’t flow through formal institutions nor does it include all the funds flowing through government.

The U.N. is being referenced here because it provides figures on the aid levels of various governments and because developed countries agreed as part of the U.N. to provide a specific minimum level of aid. Which they have consistently failed to meet.

Why is it important that the aid come from our government, rather than from the people of the US?

Is there a reason we should filter our charitable giving through a bloated, inefficient, bureaucratic instrument? This seems contrary to Catholic teaching to me.

 

[rlg94086]

Perhaps a different type of “waste” is paying farmers to NOT PRODUCE food in the first place - artificially limiting the supply of something in order to keep prices artificially high (price supports) and using tax dollars to do it. While not strictly “waste” of food, it would seem to be a waste of land.

Yes. A waste of resources.