Pope Francis says wasting food is like stealing from the poor

[Bubba_Switzler]

Yes. A waste of resources.

Indeed, it is a form of waste that I mentioned earlier, one that is far more signifcant: the waste of possibility and potential. And it’s not just idle land, it’s idle hands and minds: the waste of God’s gifts.

 

[rlg94086]

I think most westerners have a paltry understanding of poverty compared with our pontiff, who is far more well-versed in its continuance.

Yes! Poverty in the US is wealth in comparison to many countries, and, for most, the only glimpse of real poverty we see are in brief news reports or a Sally Struthers commercial. It is difficult to grasp what it is like for those who live in real poverty.

 

[rlg94086]

Indeed, it is a form of waste that I mentioned earlier, one that is far more signifcant: the waste of possibility and potential. And it’s not just idle land, it’s idle hands and minds: the waste of God’s gifts.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Yes! Poverty in the US is wealth in comparison to many countries, and, for most, the only glimpse of real poverty we see are in brief news reports or a Sally Struthers commercial. It is difficult to grasp what it is like for those who live in real poverty.

I’ve seen poverty in the third world and I’ve seen it in America. In many important ways, poverty in America is worse, people suffering it are not lacking for material goods or opportunities; it is, rather, a poverty of spirit.

 

[gracepoole]

Look, as I poined out previously, and I thought you agreed, the poverty of the Congo is not historically unique, it is normal. It only seems abnormal because virtually everyone else is doing better. Just read about the living condtions for the vast majority of Europeans before the 1800s. I think it’s disingenuous of you to pick out one example of bad choices and impute it to the entire nation of Congo.

You keep stating that poverty is “normal.” Is it acceptable, then, as well? If it’s normal, why try to help those who live in it?

(And interestingly, U.S. citizens could make a great impact on Congo’s poverty if folks would demand that the conflict mineral trade be ended and refuse to purchase electronics that support it: raisehopeforcongo.org/

As in the Congo, poverty in the US is also complex. But here the problem is overwhelmingly one of bad choices. That doesn’t mean we should do nothing but it does mean that giving stuff (e.g. food) is not going to solve it. Again, some deeper thinking is required.

Wow, what’s your evidence for the claim that those living in poverty in the U.S. have typically put themselves in this position?

I am not suggesting a comparion of the pontiff’s understanding to “most westerners”. Most westerners don’t care. That’s a pretty low standard, don’t you think? The question is whether he is offering the best advice on the subject. That’s a much higher standard, and one I think is entirely appropriate given his responsibilities and influence.

But I see you have declined to defend the pope’s literal words.

I don’t have any problem with the words of Pope Francis. I see no need to “defend” them.

Why is it important that the aid come from our government, rather than from the people of the US?

Oh, it’s not! Aid is aid. The subject of government aid came up thanks to an earlier poster’s comment.

Yes! Poverty in the US is wealth in comparison to many countries, and, for most, the only glimpse of real poverty we see are in brief news reports or a Sally Struthers commercial. It is difficult to grasp what it is like for those who live in real poverty.

RLG, we agree! Whoa.

 

[gracepoole]

I’ve seen poverty in the third world and I’ve seen it in America. In many important ways, poverty in America is worse, people suffering it are not lacking for material goods or opportunities; it is, rather, a poverty of spirit.

That’s definitely interesting food for thought (no pun intended). Of course, I imagine starvation doesn’t help to enrich one’s spirit.

 

[rlg94086]

I’ve seen poverty in the third world and I’ve seen it in America. In many important ways, poverty in America is worse, people suffering it are not lacking for material goods or opportunities; it is, rather, a poverty of spirit.

That is an interesting perspective. It sounds like First World Problems to me, though…which makes me think of a funny video that would be inappropriate to the topic at hand.

 

[rlg94086]

RLG, we agree! Whoa.

I’m sure there are a great many things we agree on.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

You keep stating that poverty is “normal.” Is it acceptable, then, as well? If it’s normal, why try to help those who live in it?

Normal does not mean accetable. But because it is normal we can look at the normal path out of poverty. Can we agree that Europe did not escape poverty by massive aid?

(And interestingly, U.S. citizens could make a great impact on Congo’s poverty if folks would demand that the conflict mineral trade be ended and refuse to purchase electronics that support it: raisehopeforcongo.org/

Well, that’s certainly more complicated than avoiding waste or even giving to a charity.

Wow, what’s your evidence for the claim that those living in poverty in the U.S. have typically put themselves in this position?

Sorry, that’s not the same thing. To say that people put themselves in a particular position implies that they were not already there. What I am suggesting is that, among other things, better choices are needed for people to escape poverty. In some cases it is the main thing that is needed.

I don’t have any problem with the words of Pope Francis. I see no need to “defend” them.

So you think that waste in America is the cause of poverty in the Congo? Really?!

That’s definitely interesting food for thought (no pun intended). Of course, I imagine starvation doesn’t help to enrich one’s spirit.

And certainly there is a need for basic food in some cases.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

That is an interesting perspective. It sounds like First World Problems to me, though…

On the other hand, a poverty of spirit seems like exaclty the sort of problem that the Chuch is best positioned to solve.

 

[rlg94086]

On the other hand, a poverty of spirit seems like exaclty the sort of problem that the Chuch is best positioned to solve.

Sure, but I don’t think that was what the Pope was addressing in this talk. Certainly, poverty of spirit is another universal concern.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Sure, but I don’t think that was what the Pope was addressing in this talk. Certainly, poverty of spirit is another universal concern.

I agree. But it is problem in dire need of address.

 

[gracepoole]

Normal does not mean accetable. But because it is normal we can look at the normal path out of poverty. Can we agree that Europe did not escape poverty by massive aid?

I actually think the poverty of the third-world is quite different than the poverty experienced throughout Europe. In any case, I’m wholly unconvinced that looking at escape from poverty in Europe is going to assist someone in Central African Republic in most relevant ways.

Well, that’s certainly more complicated than avoiding waste or even giving to a charity.

Indeed. (Still, super easy – I’m always shocked that people can’t just do these small things when it’s asked of them.)

Sorry, that’s not the same thing. To say that people put themselves in a particular position implies that they were not already there. What I am suggesting is that, among other things, better choices are needed for people to escape poverty. In some cases it is the main thing that is needed.

So if people would just _______, they’d likely escape poverty?

So you think that waste in America is the cause of poverty in the Congo? Really?!

Two things. First, waste is an essential part of a consumerist economy and culture, which furthers the divide between those living in poverty and everyone else. And second (a serious question, even if it doesn’t sound that way), how do you describe Pope Francis’ comments? Misguided? Or wrong?

 

[seekerz]

I’m not even going to touch this tiresome “global economy” argument because others in this thread have done a better job of explaining why you are wrong. I’m fed up with the sanctimonious anti-American routine too. And I’m not going to apologize for treating myself to a buffet and leaving a couple cubes of cheese, the end of a roll, and some dried-up potatoes on my plate.

Restaurants and caterers are businesses that operate by giving people what they want. Otherwise they wouldn’t exist. There are some who go to a buffet and overeat and there are some who go to the same buffet and eat sensibly. The person who goes to the heart attack hamburger place in Las Vegas and signs a waiver doesn’t have a gun pointed at his head.

My grandmother also had no patience for those who enjoyed the benefits of citizenship in this country but constantly found fault with it. She was an illiterate Italian immigrant who never had a square meal until she landed at Ellis Island. Even after coming here, she and my grandfather struggled for years to put food on the table. To her, abundance was a blessing. For Sunday dinner, she made enough for a small army because she could - because she was able to provide what she couldn’t even dream of before she came here. You didn’t dare leave her table unless you were stuffed to the point of pain. But I guess we were just part of the culture of waste and excess.

Tiresome “global economy argument”? My, my. One man’s tiresome is another man’s burdensome, but no need for us to over exert ourselves discussing whether Bangladeshi women are better off raising 6 kids on the milk of one buffalo or having their tubes tied after 2 kids so they can spend their days earning “big bucks” locked up in sweatshops…

I don’t understand the basis for some of these prickly responses: the ability to question, criticize, and yes, laugh at one’s self and one’s society, is a sign of good health and a wholesome self-image.

Nobody, to my knowledge, is condemning buffets per se: but a culture of excess, as in knowingly availing oneself of more than one is reasonably capable of using or likely to use. I see so much overreaction that it’s probably time to scrounge up my copy of the Catechism just to make sure I have that concept right.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I actually think the poverty of the third-world is quite different than the poverty experienced throughout Europe. In any case, I’m wholly unconvinced that looking at escape from poverty in Europe is going to assist someone in Central African Republic in most relevant ways.

The comparison that I’m making is between modern Congo and ancient through middle ages Europe. The question I am putting to you is: how did Europe go from a state in which virtually everyone outside of the aristocracy (and the clergy) struggled to subsist to a state where the poor are obese? Charity, in the narrow sense of “massive aid” had very little to do with it.

Indeed. (Still, super easy – I’m always shocked that people can’t just do these small things when it’s asked of them.)

The pope is only asking that we not waste food. Did you clean your plate at dinner?

So if people would just _______, they’d likely escape poverty?

See above. It’s a good question to ask. The corresponding question is “So if people would just _______, others’d likely escape poverty?” I don’t believe that “not waste food” will satisfy that formulation.

Two things. First, waste is an essential part of a consumerist economy and culture, which furthers the divide between those living in poverty and everyone else.

Well, at least I know where you stand now though this comes as no surprise.

Waste is an essential part life. You can ponder that truism next time you visit the loo.

Waste is an inevitable aspect of abundance. We don’t conserve what we don’t value and we don’t value what is abundant. It has nothing to do with “consumerism” or creating a dividing line “between those living in poverty and everyone else”. Getting things from where they are less valued to where they are more valued is nontrivial as even children told to clean their plate for the poor in Africa seem to understand.

And second (a serious question, even if it doesn’t sound that way), how do you describe Pope Francis’ comments? Misguided? Or wrong?

I’m honestly not sure. I am struggling to give a charitable interpretation. The best I can fathom is that he was taking the occassion of the “United Nations World Environment Day” to engage in some pandering by relating the occasion to a subject that is important to him. Politicians do that sort of thing all the time. Are popes above it?

Here is a serious question for you: Do you believe that wasting food is a grave sin? (Maybe you should spend a day working at a restaurant.)

 

[seekerz]

Here is what you said previously:

Now it is a trivial matter to show that “as a nation” we produce almost in exact proportion to our consumption. But what is the point of marshalling evidence for that obvious fact when you have already demonstrated that you think the valuation of produced goods is a result of an unfair trade advantage. And I’ll note in pasing that you have not offered any evidence for your attribution of taking “more than our share” to trade advantage.

However, as it happens, we had a natural experiment in the 20th century. The western nations opted for capitalism (relatively speaking) and the Soviet block for a “fair” distribution of consumption. There was negligable trade between them so the poverty and eventual collapse of the Soviet system cannot be attributed to any unfair trade advantage that the west held. The west consumed more because it produced more.

It is one thing to say that gluttony is a sin. It is another thing to elevate it as the cause of poverty and equate waste to stealing from the poor. I don’t for a minute believe that the pope is a shallow thinker but he is certainliy pandering to shallow thinkers. That is a shame.

As I noted above, what we can learn from economics is that the waste which has the greatest impact on the situation of the poor is not wasteful consumption but wasteful sloth, wasting the gifts that God has given us.

I had expected a loftier debate than the tired old “the poor are lazy” argument, but that’s life. To my mind, the Pope’s thinking is just of the right depth because it is coming against that very argument rather forcefully in his attitudes and words. Guess, we have something in common, His Holiness and I, we know REAL poor people, lots of them. Not just as an abstract concept across a soup kitchen counter or across the vastness of cyberspace, but close up and personal.

The Pope was not trying to give an economics lesson, I don’t think. However it did set me thinking. My statement about the trade advantage was not related to production levels but to the ability to impact the PRICES at which commodities are bought and sold. I could run the most modern and efficient farms, the most productive fisheries or factories or whatever…pick your enterprise, if my country/region does not have much influence on commodity prices then I am at the mercy of my global trading partners. That’s what I (I suppose erroneously) referred to as a “trade advantage”. In a completely “free” market (if such a thing actually exists) high demand in my trading partners’ country should mean more money for me, but when that high demand is for more and more goods at cheaper and cheaper prices that’s when my “fair share” statement comes into play…

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I had expected a loftier debate than the tired old “the poor are lazy” argument, but that’s life.

If you can find where I said the poor are lazy, I will shave my head and join the Fanciscans. Otherwise, I hope that you will issue a public apology for that slander.

I have said that sloth is a problem and that there is widespread waste of God’s gifts but nowhere did I limit that criticism to the poor.

To my mind, the Pope’s thinking is just of the right depth because it is coming against that very argument rather forcefully in his attitudes and words. Guess, we have something in common, His Holiness and I, we know REAL poor people, lots of them. Not just as an abstract concept across a soup kitchen counter or across the vastness of cyberspace, but close up and personal.

I’m glad that you and the pope have befriended so many real people. I’m sure everyone here is just so jealous because all we have are fake friends.

The Pope was not trying to give an economics lesson, I don’t think. However it did set me thinging. My statement about the trade advantage was not related to production levels but to the ability to impact the PRICES at which commodities are bought and sold. I could run the most modern and efficient farms, the most productive fisheries or factories or whatever…pick your enterprise, if my country/region does not have much influence on commodity prices then I am at the mercy of my global trading partners. That’s what I (I suppose erroneously) referred to as a “trade advantage”. In a completely “free” market (if such a thing actually exists) high demand in my trading partners’ country should mean more money for me, but when that high demand is for more and more goods at cheaper and cheaper prices that’s when my “fair share” statement comes into play…

We are all “at the mercy” of those around us. We are also all blessed by the abundance around us. Some see the glass as half empty, others as half full. I’m guessing you are of the first sort.

 

[gracepoole]

The comparison that I’m making is between modern Congo and ancient through middle ages Europe. The question I am putting to you is: how did Europe go from a state in which virtually everyone outside of the aristocracy (and the clergy) struggled to subsist to a state where the poor are obese? Charity, in the narrow sense of “massive aid” had very little to do with it.

But again, Europe’s poverty isn’t (and never was) the poverty experienced in Sierra Leone. Or Guinea. Or Liberia. Not that it wasn’t as bad, but its causes were different.

Indeed. (Still, super easy – I’m always shocked that people can’t just do these small things when it’s asked of them.)

The pope is only asking that we not waste food. Did you clean your plate at dinner?

I don’t think it’s an issue of cleaning one’s plate, or at least not solely of that. Buying too much in the first place is also waste.

First, waste is an essential part of a consumerist economy and culture, which furthers the divide between those living in poverty and everyone else.

Well, at least I know where you stand now though this comes as no surprise.

You do? Enlighten me.

And why do I feel like I’ve just been branded?

Waste is an essential part life. You can ponder that truism next time you visit the loo.

Waste is an inevitable aspect of abundance. We don’t conserve what we don’t value and we don’t value what is abundant. It has nothing to do with “consumerism” or creating a dividing line “between those living in poverty and everyone else”. Getting things from where they are less valued to where they are more valued is nontrivial as even children told to clean their plate for the poor in Africa seem to understand.

Clearly, we don’t see the global economy in the same way. Perhaps even the Church’s teachings on distributism.

Here is a serious question for you: Do you believe that wasting food is a grave sin? (Maybe you should spend a day working at a restaurant.)

Thankfully, Mother Church usually has a better handle on what is or isn’t a grave sin. But I do find it…odd that this pope’s words are so often challenged by adherent Catholics.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

But again, Europe’s poverty isn’t (and never was) the poverty experienced in Sierra Leone. Or Guinea. Or Liberia. Not that it wasn’t as bad, but its causes were different.

I guess then you need a history lesson. Why don’t we start with pre-Roman Gaul and Germania. What do you think was the standard of living at that time in northern Europe in places that now enjoy the highest standard of living in the world?

Or, for that matter, what do you think was the standard of living of the average Roman freeman, never mind slaves?

What was the average caloric consumption in medieval times?

I don’t think it’s an issue of cleaning one’s plate, or at least not solely of that. Buying too much in the first place is also waste.

No matter how much you expand the concept of “consumerist” waste, you will never arrive at a solution to poverty in the Congo.

You do? Enlighten me. And why do I feel like I’ve just been branded?

Because you apparently are among those who think that wealth in one place causes poverty in another.

Clearly, we don’t see the global economy in the same way. Perhaps even the Church’s teachings on distributism.

The Church’s teachings? Or the teachings of Chesterton? Why am I not surprised at this latest revelation?

Thankfully, Mother Church usually has a better handle on what is or isn’t a grave sin. But I do find it…odd that this pope’s words are so often challenged by adherent Catholics.

You’ve been dodging this question throughout this thread.

I’m pretty confident that stealing from the poor is a gave sin. It’s hard to imagine any worse form of theft. And if wasting food is the same as stealing from the poor then, surely, it must also be a grave sin. Right?

 

[gracepoole]

I guess then you need a history lesson. Why don’t we start with pre-Roman Gaul and Germania. What do you think was the standard of living at that time in northern Europe in places that now enjoy the highest standard of living in the world?

Or, for that matter, what do you think was the standard of living of the average Roman freeman, never mind slaves?

What was the average caloric consumption in medieval times?

No matter how much you expand the concept of “consumerist” waste, you will never arrive at a solution to poverty in the Congo.

Because you apparently are among those who think that wealth in one place causes poverty in another.

The Church’s teachings? Or the teachings of Chesterton? Why am I not surprised at this latest revelation?

You’ve been dodging this question throughout this thread.

I’m pretty confident that stealing from the poor is a gave sin. It’s hard to imagine any worse form of theft. And if wasting food is the same as stealing from the poor then, surely, it must also be a grave sin. Right?

I’m pretty well versed in European history. But I’m not convinced you’re well versed on modern third-world poverty. As for your assessments of me, my approach to capitalism is in line with the Church’s teachings on the topic. That should tell you everything you need to know about this aspect of my views.

I’ll go with the pope on this one. While I’ve no doubt spent more time committing grave sins, I think he’s spent far more time studying them.