Pope Francis' speaks out on the disruption of Kristallnacht event by Traditionalist Catholics in Argentina

[Lormar]

Gloria, surely you know that what you are reading on traditional fora is the opinion of the “Resistance” and not the mainstream SSPX?

 

[M1Garand]

Then you are in opposition to our Pope.

What part of what I said exactly is in opposition to our Pope?

 

[Lormar]

opcorn:As a catholic I think they are nuts.But maybe that’s because my grandmother was a lutheran who converted,my mom’s mother was a hungarian presbyterian, her father was hungarian Byzantine rite ,(eastern rite of catholic church) and my brother in law is a jew.
My brother in laws family doesn’t seem to have any problem with us being half german on our dad’s side,and Ross’s sister is married to a polish catholic and lives in Chicago.
Of course there will be differences ,but we do share somethings in common,and they seem to forget that Jesus and the Holy Apostles were jews. In fact, there is or was a feast day in the Church in honor of the Maccabees.
The light burning in front of the altar to signify God is present in the tabernacle comes from the story about the miracle of Hannukah and the oil. You of course know the story,and we took the custom from you.
These people are so isolated,they have apparently no dealing with others,certainly not jews.
My dad for example could speak Yiddish,went to school with kids of all faiths and knew alot about jewish culture, even though he was a catholic.
Instead of worrying about the rabbi helping lead a prayer service,they would do much better to go out and walk the streets,visit people in their homes and spread the catholic faith.Protestants more and more keep gaining converts amongst hispanics both here and in mexico,Central and South America.They offer aid and assistance, and try to reach these people by talking about Jesus and what he preached.They don’t seem to offer them alot of dogma etc.
A simple message for simple people.Many don’t have a lot of education,and have little interest in the harrange that goes on between catholics on theological matters.
Now this might sound off track,but it’s not.
Of course jews would be tired of all the harrassment they get from such groups after it going on for centuries,though the evangelicals also want to convert Jews, but are far more sutle about it.
Judisim will never disappear,but the catholic church may with much more of such actions.
Its that sort of attitude which is why many leave the church and become a protestant or not even that,just don’t bother going to church.

Wow~! As a Catholic, instead of thinking how “nuts” they are, pray for them.

 

[Lormar]

I wouldn’t expect any of the SSPX-bashers on this thread to even begin to understand what might have been at the core of this unruly and improper dissent. To paint the SSPX as anti-Semitic is, to use BroJR’s words, small-minded. To give you some perspective on what you may not comprehend, I cannot count the times where I have been on pilgrimages to Holy Shrines in the U.S. where the shrine operators physically block entrance to the shrine to prevent any of the SSPX pilgrims from entering to pray while nobody else was at these sites - no Jews were involved.

This disruption of an ecumenical service or gathering , while certainly not justified, is not about Jews. You will not ever understand what it is really about, especially if you believe it is about the eradication of Jews or the Jewish faith.

 

[Lormar]

And they are so wrong in this. Talk about not being able to see who the true enemies of the Church, and of God, actually are.

Jews are not a threat to the Church, or even to Christianity in general. The Church has sufficient actual enemies inside it and outside it, working by commission and omission to carve away at Truth and what is continuous about Tradition.

Antisemitism is a form of persecution, and persecution is unholy. I refuse to associate with that particular aspect of traditionalism. It is also a blind spot among many traditionalist Catholics: they do not see how incompatible it is with Godliness (virtue), with a pure heart, with the Gospels, with the lives of the Saints, and with the person of Jesus Himself.

 

[Marian_Devotee]

I find it strange that this has turned into a discussion of antisemitism But I guess I am evil and side with the SSPX because I too want Jews converted to Jesus Christ who they reject and in some cases hate. If wanting our Jewish brethren to join the fold makes me antisemitic then I wear that label with honor.

I am not part of the SSPX but I also do not reject all that they stand for either. I agree that modernism has infected the Church over the last 60 years and we have seen the result of that. I also find the Church’s statements regarding Judaism and Islam in Lumen Gentium disturbing.

Great post, M1Garand. I, too, have no formal association with the SSPX, but we can’t merely dismiss what previous Popes, Church Fathers, and holy synods have asserted (like the Seventeenth Council of Toledo, for example).

 

[M1Garand]

+1

 

[M1Garand]

Great post, M1Garand. I, too, have no formal association with the SSPX, but we can’t merely dismiss what previous Popes, Church Fathers, and holy synods have asserted (like the Seventeenth Council of Toledo, for example).

Most Catholics have never read Lumen Gentium so they have no idea what it says. Its pronouncement about the salvation of both non-Catholics, Jews, Muslims and non-believers is not entirely consistent with 1900 years of Church doctrine. I literally read it over and over and tried to tease out a meaning other than they are saved even without Christ and his Church, yet that is what it appears to say. This position is supported and adopted in the Catechism and has been repeated by Francis–who I like very much. I will not say more because I have been censored by this site now three times for speaking my mind so I will just leave it at that.

 

[GloriaMaria]

Gloria, surely you know that what you are reading on traditional fora is the opinion of the “Resistance” and not the mainstream SSPX?

I dearly wish that were true Lormar. In fact a quick search on some of the usual sites, those that have remained SSPX in following to a large degree, will show that there is a vocal majority who praise the actions of this group of Argentinian followers of the SSPX. Perhaps they are “Resistance” leaning. I don’t know - but I’m not referring to the “Resistance” site that you may be thinking of.

I’m glad that you haven’t been exposed to the folks in the SSPX who throw around the word “Jew” like a pejorative. Perhaps it was just a subset that I was exposed to.

 

[GloriaMaria]

I wouldn’t expect any of the SSPX-bashers on this thread to even begin to understand what might have been at the core of this unruly and improper dissent. To paint the SSPX as anti-Semitic is, to use BroJR’s words, small-minded. To give you some perspective on what you may not comprehend, I cannot count the times where I have been on pilgrimages to Holy Shrines in the U.S. where the shrine operators physically block entrance to the shrine to prevent any of the SSPX pilgrims from entering to pray while nobody else was at these sites - no Jews were involved.

This disruption of an ecumenical service or gathering , while certainly not justified, is not about Jews. You will not ever understand what it is really about, especially if you believe it is about the eradication of Jews or the Jewish faith.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten everyone as to what “it is really about”.

 

[RPRPsych]

Perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten everyone as to what “it is really about”.

I can answer that:

[insert apologia pro Marcel Lefebvre]

[insert statement about how Franco saved the Jews, Mussolini wasn’t that bad, Philippe Petain was a nice Catholic boy, and…oops.]

[insert oblique condemnation of *Lumen Gentium, Gaudium et Spes, Dignitatis Humanae, while trying hard not to fall foul of forum rules]

[insert statement about how the media is unfair to “+Williamson”]

[post links to non-sequiturs like Pope John Paul II playing with a koala bear to prove that he wasn’t reverent enough]

[post links to “the Assisi Abomination”]

[refer to Pope Francis as “Bergoglio” all the time]

[hint that you’d reveal **the whole truth, except that the evil mods would ban you]

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[Boulder257]

I can answer that:

[insert apologia pro Marcel Lefebvre]

[insert statement about how Franco saved the Jews, Mussolini wasn’t that bad, Philippe Petain was a nice Catholic boy, and…oops.]

[insert oblique condemnation of *Lumen Gentium

, Gaudium et Spes, Dignitatis Humanae, while trying hard not to fall foul of forum rules]

[insert statement about how the media is unfair to “+Williamson”]

[post links to non-sequiturs like Pope John Paul II playing with a koala bear to prove that he wasn’t reverent enough]

[post links to “the Assisi Abomination”]

[refer to Pope Francis as “Bergoglio” all the time]

[hint that you’d reveal **the whole truth, except that the evil mods would ban you]

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[TRH1292]

I can answer that:

[insert apologia pro Marcel Lefebvre]

[insert statement about how Franco saved the Jews, Mussolini wasn’t that bad, Philippe Petain was a nice Catholic boy, and…oops.]

[insert oblique condemnation of *Lumen Gentium

, Gaudium et Spes, Dignitatis Humanae, while trying hard not to fall foul of forum rules]

[insert statement about how the media is unfair to “+Williamson”]

[post links to non-sequiturs like Pope John Paul II playing with a koala bear to prove that he wasn’t reverent enough]

[post links to “the Assisi Abomination”]

[refer to Pope Francis as “Bergoglio” all the time]

[hint that you’d reveal **the whole truth, except that the evil mods would ban you]

Lather, rinse, repeat.

That gave me a good chuckle.

 

[RPRPsych]

Amen to that.

 

[TRH1292]

It’s amazing that people could defend such evil and claim to be Catholic, all the while dissenting from Church teaching.

 

[RPRPsych]

That gave me a good chuckle.

Glad to hear that; when dealing with behaviour of this sort, we all could use a smile or two.

 

[TRH1292]

Glad to hear that; when dealing with behaviour of this sort, we all could use a smile or two.

“Got to laugh to keep from cryin!” As they say down South.

 

[AndrewF1995]

All this SSPX bashing is seriously disappointing. Do you realize how ridiculous all of this is? So its okay for RPRPsych and others to literally despise and hate the SSPX but the second someone says they pray for the conversion of the Jewish people they are some horrible evil person? Very disappointed by reading all of this. The SSPX do not hate the Pope and should not “become followers of Pope Michael” Or whatever else garbage you have been throwing out about them.

Then this ridiculousness that if you disagree or question Lumen Gentium “Then you are in opposition to our Pope.” Seriously?? God forbid someone questions a non-infailable document. What about all the people who were in opposition to religious leaders during the iconoclasm or the various other heresies in the Church.

 

[agnes_therese]

All this SSPX bashing is seriously disappointing. Do you realize how ridiculous all of this is? So its okay for RPRPsych and others to literally despise and hate the SSPX but the second someone says they pray for the conversion of the Jewish people they are some horrible evil person? Very disappointed by reading all of this. The SSPX do not hate the Pope and should not “become followers of Pope Michael” Or whatever else garbage you have been throwing out about them.

Exactly where did someone say that just praying for the conversion of the Jewish people makes someone “some horrible evil person?”

 

[RPRPsych]

All this SSPX bashing is seriously disappointing. Do you realize how ridiculous all of this is? So its okay for RPRPsych and others to literally despise and hate the SSPX but the second someone says they pray for the conversion of the Jewish people they are some horrible evil person? Very disappointed by reading all of this. The SSPX do not hate the Pope and should not “become followers of Pope Michael” Or whatever else garbage you have been throwing out about them.

I’m sorry, I don’t hate or despise the SSPX; they are as Catholic as you and I, after all.

I was merely objecting to two posts (by avowed non-SSPX members) who made hit-and-run criticisms of official Church documents. It’s one thing to make a serious and scholarly criticism; it’s another thing to make insinuations that the Church has fallen into error. Dietrich von Hildebrand is a good example of the former.

As for the other post, it was tongue in cheek, and it’s a digest of various things I’ve read either here or on R***** C****; unfortunately, since I’m not writing an academic paper, I haven’t included references. The was meant to be a give-away. I do have a weird sense of humour. My point isn’t to bash the SSPX, but to decry the action of a few of their followers, as well as to highlight (in a humorous way) some of the philosophical assumptions that those followers may have been operating on.