Pope Francis' speaks out on the disruption of Kristallnacht event by Traditionalist Catholics in Argentina

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agnes_therese said:
Exactly where did someone say that just praying for the conversion of the Jewish people makes someone “some horrible evil person?”
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I know I sounded irrational there, It was just the feeling I was getting from all of this. I apologize.
RPRPsych said:
I’m sorry, I don’t hate or despise the SSPX; they are as Catholic as you and I, after all.

I was merely objecting to two posts (by avowed non-SSPX members) who made hit-and-run criticisms of official Church documents. It’s one thing to make a serious and scholarly criticism; it’s another thing to make insinuations that the Church has fallen into error. Dietrich von Hildebrand is a good example of the former.
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Thank you for clarifying, I’m sorry If I sounded like a jerk, I was just upset. I wasn’t looking for an argument.
 
Would ridicule and mockery be tolerated against any other group on CAF? Of course not. Then why is it all right when it comes to the SSPX? Is it that we always need a horse to beat?

This is all very distressing, but I am grateful for an opportunity to examine my own conscience in this regard. :o
 
agnes_therese said:
Exactly where did someone say that just praying for the conversion of the Jewish people makes someone “some horrible evil person?”
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Good point. The action being criticized here is the disruption of the Kristallnacht memorial service by self-proclaimed SSPX followers. None of us has criticized praying for the Jewish people or for their conversion; in fact, that prayer was said in our parish every year until 2010 or so, though the vexatious word “perfidious” (which isn’t in most Indians’ vocabularies anyway) was thankfully omitted.
 
RPRPsych said:
I’m sorry, I don’t hate or despise the SSPX; they are as Catholic as you and I, after all.

I was merely objecting to two posts (by avowed non-SSPX members) who made hit-and-run criticisms of official Church documents. It’s one thing to make a serious and scholarly criticism; it’s another thing to make insinuations that the Church has fallen into error. Dietrich von Hildebrand is a good example of the former.

As for the other post, it was tongue in cheek, and it’s a digest of various things I’ve read either here or on R***** C****; unfortunately, since I’m not writing an academic paper, I haven’t included references. The 😃 was meant to be a give-away. I do have a weird sense of humour. My point isn’t to bash the SSPX, but to decry the action of a few of their followers, as well as to highlight (in a humorous way) some of the philosophical assumptions that those followers may have been operating on.
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I wouldn’t worry too much about the criticism. It was unfounded and you were obviously just trying to make a joke. I thought it was funny!
 
AndrewF1995 said:
I know I sounded irrational there, It was just the feeling I was getting from all of this. I apologize.

Thank you for clarifying, I’m sorry If I sounded like a jerk, I was just upset. I wasn’t looking for an argument.
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No problem, I guess I was asking for it, joking about a serious topic. Peace be with you. 👍
 
Lormar said:
Would ridicule and mockery be tolerated against any other group on CAF? Of course not. Then why is it all right when it comes to the SSPX? Is it that we always need a horse to beat?

This is all very distressing, but I am grateful for an opportunity to examine my own conscience in this regard. :o
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Yes this is the point I was trying to make with my post even though I got carried away.
 
RPRPsych said:
I’m sorry, I don’t hate or despise the SSPX; they are as Catholic as you and I, after all.

I was merely objecting to two posts (by avowed non-SSPX members) **who made hit-and-run criticisms of official Church documents. **It’s one thing to make a serious and scholarly criticism; it’s another thing to make insinuations that the Church has fallen into error. Dietrich von Hildebrand is a good example of the former.
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Hit and run? Really? So you have read Lumen Gentium then? I will wager you do not even understand my criticism if you did you would not have said I oppose Francis. Please enlighten me with your understanding of chapter II para 15-16?

Why has this thread turned into a frantic hyperventilating accusation of anti-semitism? I don’t think most of you who throw that term around understand 1. its context and 2. its misuse. Nor do most of you have any idea what you are saying as it pertains to this topic. What blithering uncharitable diatribe.
 
TimothyH said:
The Jews certainly took offense at what happened in the Cathedral.

jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-Features/Fundamentalists-disrupt-interfaith-Kristallnacht-remembrance-in-Argentina-331819

-Tim-
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SOME Jews also called the “Passion of the Christ” anti-semitic. They accused its source, the gospel of Mark, of being anti-semitic. I had an issue with a Ranch in the US that had Navajo whirling long symbols on the back of their dining room chairs and the ADL was threatening suit because they had “swastikas” on the back of the chairs and they demanded their removal. See how it goes. Where does this end? Aren’t we as Christians to rise above all of this nonsense or are we so slavishly cowed in the culture to speak truth without regard to inflammatory labels used to shut us up? Are we now such cowards we no longer proclaim the gospel to Jews and others or do we now believe salvation no longer requires Christ because to proclaim it angers some people. I recall Christ talking about this very issue and we were warned that we would endure such persecution. So now one Christian persecutes another over perceived slanderous allegations of “anti-semitism”. How very fascist we have all become.
 
History dictates, the Catholic Church is a denomination of the Jewish religion,and on the correct side of the worship of Jesus, within Catholicism. Although we be separated by distinct differences, our commonness is really more evident,not to mention, Jesus is a Jew that chose Jews.Now St.Paul a Pharisee and certainly chosen by Jesus for his knowledge in Judiasm; that sparked the evolution of Judism into a Christo Centric belief now called Catholicism; that gave us the Old and New Testaments. They after all, are the chosen,of the Father.

God Bless the chair of Peter and its occupant at the moment,the Pope.
 
onenow1 said:
History dictates, the Catholic Church is a denomination of the Jewish religion,and on the correct side of the worship of Jesus, within Catholicism. Although we be separated by distinct differences, our commonness is really more evident,not to mention, Jesus is a Jew that chose Jews.Now St.Paul a Pharisee and certainly chosen by Jesus for his knowledge in Judiasm; that sparked the evolution of Judism into a Christo Centric belief now called Catholicism; that gave us the Old and New Testaments. They after all, are the chosen,of the Father.

God Bless the chair of Peter and its occupant at the moment,the Pope.
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That is incorrect. The torch was passed through the Jews to the gentiles to the new covenant. The old covenant passed away and a new one was establish through Christ Jesus and exist now in the mystical body of Christ. The Blessed Virgin is the arch of the new covenant which was rejected by the Jews. Christ makes this clear in many parables that is why the new covenant was taken to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected it. Another symbol of the breaking of the old covenant was the tearing of the curtain in the Temple at the death of Christ and ultimately at the destruction of the Temple foretold by Christ and which came to pass in the year 70. This is why the Temple will never be rebuilt because it is no longer the seat of the people of God. If this is all too anti-semitic I am sorry but it is infallible Catholic doctrine well for now any way.

Jews of the 1st century that did not become Christians rejected the new covenant and cast the Christians out of the the synagogs in the year 90. The rabbinical Judaism of today is not the sacrificial judaism of the 1st century and bears very little relation to it. Study the Jewish sources and see if they agree that Christianity is a sect of Judaism.
 
M1Garand said:
SOME Jews also called the “Passion of the Christ” anti-semitic. They accused its source, the gospel of Mark, of being anti-semitic. I had an issue with a Ranch in the US that had Navajo whirling long symbols on the back of their dining room chairs and the ADL was threatening suit because they had “swastikas” on the back of the chairs and they demanded their removal. See how it goes. Where does this end? Aren’t we as Christians to rise above all of this nonsense or are we so slavishly cowed in the culture to speak truth without regard to inflammatory labels used to shut us up? Are we now such cowards we no longer proclaim the gospel to Jews and others or do we now believe salvation no longer requires Christ because to proclaim it angers some people. I recall Christ talking about this very issue and we were warned that we would endure such persecution. So now one Christian persecutes another over perceived slanderous allegations of “anti-semitism”. How very fascist we have all become.
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No, Catholics are not to proselytize Jews. That is the position of the Church.

-Tim-
 
We may invite, yes, (which is why we have in this thread a Jew by ancestry who is a Franciscan friar) but not proselytize. And aside from being unnecessarily inflammatory, proselytism in the sense we’re talking about usually doesn’t actually work at getting Jewish people to make sincere conversions. The Spanish tried that for years and they failed.
 
benjohnson said:
We Lutherans are rather (in)famous for not tolerating inter-faith services - so I can understand the premise the SSPX has given for the protest. I understand why this service would annoy people as there’s prohibitions all over the place in the Bible against such things - but sometimes you have to respond to where the Holy Spirit is leading you to ignore the Law for just a moment and reach out to your neighbor and meet them on their level.

But frankly, my opinion is that the premise given for the protest isn’t the entire reason - the protest seems more angry than a protest given out of love for Christ Jesus should have been.

Christians are called to be kind, humble, loving, and generous to our neighbors and even our enemies - I didn’t see that at all in this protest. I saw venom, and now that I thinking on it, these people need our prayers.

Frankly, that the -]Catholic church/-] Catholic Church invited the Jewish neighbors to step inside a cathedral in mutual love for God the Father (we can have that debate elsewhere) is to be commended even by this stubborn and cranky Lutheran.
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Not so.
 
onenow1 said:
History dictates, the Catholic Church is a denomination of the Jewish religion,and on the correct side of the worship of Jesus, within Catholicism. Although we be separated by distinct differences, our commonness is really more evident,not to mention, Jesus is a Jew that chose Jews.Now St.Paul a Pharisee and certainly chosen by Jesus for his knowledge in Judiasm; that sparked the evolution of Judism into a Christo Centric belief now called Catholicism; that gave us the Old and New Testaments. They after all, are the chosen,of the Father.

God Bless the chair of Peter and its occupant at the moment,the Pope.
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Absolutely not. While Christianity indeed effectively started out as a new sect of Judaism, that is not how it has ended up.
 
I think it’s time for the Catholic Church to simply hit the “ignore button” once and for all with regard to the SSPX.
 
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