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Dawnia
Guest
What actions can someone not change?
- Status
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opus101
Guest
I realize this, that is why I have been wondering who the Holy Father had been referring to all along. When I say “extremes”, I mean extremes within groups of people, such as those who claim to be “traditional”. And, clearly, that is who the Holy Father was referring to, he said it himself. And there must be a reason why he said it.
This has often been my experience as well, however, like everywhere else, there are those who go over the deep end.
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PTL
Guest
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RosyAnne
Guest
Perfectly stated!
That’s a gross misconception. Nobody is ever permanently barred from the Eucharist! There is always an option available, albeit a difficult one in some cases, but it still comes down to personal will and choice to change behaviour (or at least a sincere attempt) or abstain. God always respects our will and allows us freedom to choose.
Simply repent and try to change the action/behavior. I know it’s easier said than done, I have a few vices to work out myself and I fail time and time again. But that’s all that this boils down to. I am sincere in my efforts and truly acknowledge the wrong that I do and desire to amend my life.
I AM NOT MY VICE. MY VICE DOES NOT DEFINE ME OR WHO I AM. I am a beloved daughter of God. Thanks be to God.
I thank Jesus for the graces He gives me to keep trying and not give up.
I challenge ANYONE AND EVERYONE to give Jesus one year of sincere effort. One year of living fully within the teachings of the Church and genuinely accepting ALL the doctrines. Abstain whatever it is you need to abstain from (fornication; birth control; sodomy; drugs; porn; impure acts; whatever it is and all of them…every single one of 'em). Turn to Him and His ways with your whole heart.
If you do this with sincerity, I guarantee your eyes will be opened and you will see, almost tangibly, His grace working abundantly in your life and in ways you never imagined.
And the result is this: you will change from “trying not to sin” to “I don’t want to offend God because I love Him”.
Trust in our Lord. If He tells us something’s offensive to Him or harmful to us, believe it because He is not a deceiver but is Truth.
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One_point
Guest
I agree. And when the orthodox are cited as the first big temptation then it leaves me confused. now our 2,000 years faith is only “letter” but not spirit? in this day and age, which honestly is the big temptation, the emphasis on truth or the emphasis on false mercy?
I will leave this discussion now because it has destroyed my faith in the church. I no longer have confidence in the catholic church and it is better to walk away before I turn Buddhist! 
I have been asking myself this whole time if living differently or counter-culturally makes sense in light of the fact catholic claims may not be true afterall and more and more I am inclined to cut myself slack.
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opus101
Guest
It seems that you did not even read the Holy Father’s address.I agree. And when the orthodox are cited as the first big temptation then it leaves me confused. now our 2,000 years faith is only “letter” but not spirit? in this day and age, which honestly is the big temptation, the emphasis on truth or the emphasis on false mercy?
He did speak of false mercy. In fact, you might be surprised to see that you are probably in agreement with what he had to say! Give it another read!
He said we must emphasize truth and not hold out a false mercy.
Maybe you need to read more slowly?
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opus101
Guest
For One Point:
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opus101
Guest
For One Point:
Here, he is referring to those who would have the audacity to try to change the deposit of faith:
Robert Bay; 12422683:
Here, he is referring to those who would have the audacity to try to change the deposit of faith:
also important to read:
Robert Bay; 12422683:
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1newcatholic
Guest
Absolutely! All a divorced/remarried Catholic needs to do is inform his or her spouse that they will no longer be having sex, and that they aren’t actually married. What could possibly be easier and more fair?
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opus101
Guest
I wish you weren’t being so sarcastic. That’s all we need is a fight.
RosyAnn didn’t say that it would be “easy”, she was just saying that it was possible. She was responding specifically to the word “permanently”.
I also wondered what was meant by “permanently”.
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RosyAnne
Guest
There’s not an easy answer is there 1newcatholic
. I will tell you from personal experience, sometimes a hard, devastating choice has to be made . I am married to a non-Catholic, baptized a Christian but has no concept of “faith” at all as he wasn’t raised with any guidance. Without getting into personal details, I will tell you that we have one child together (who is now an adult). That wasn’t because of medical issues, it was because of pressure and choices made within our marriage. Also because of secular media and other influences, certain behaviors within the marriage were expected. Again, I’m not going into all details but just enough to hint at what I myself had to contend with when I first decided to return to the Church in my 20s. I withdrew from the Church after about 10 years and I believe that there was a real struggle there because I wasn’t fully embracing the Church and the teachings. I had a young family, a husband that wasn’t Catholic or really Christian in any sense of the word and I was trying to make it all work but in the end failed.I KNOW the struggle and how difficult it is. When I was called back to the Church, the first thing I knew that I had to do was draw a line and say “this is ok” and “this is not ok” and set new boundaries (and this after 25+ years of marriage!!!). I had to shed every and all behavior and action that did not conform to the Catholic faith. It was hard and scary at first because I didn’t know what the consequence would be within my marriage. But somehow it all worked out. I’m fortunate because I know that it could very easily have gone the other way (and has for others).
But I’m telling you this in all sincerity, it is not charitable or merciful to allow someone to think it’s ok to continue in behavior that God has forbidden. Sin isn’t “just” a black mark on our souls. It has very nefarious consequences, such as:
–it hardens our heart. The more serious the sin, the more serious the damage. The harder our hearts get, the easier it is to stray from God and be deceived.
–it dulls our conscience AND our intellect over time.
–it weakens us spiritually and makes us more defenseless against the attacks of the devil
–it weakens our resolve and discipline, suddenly we’re doing things that we never thought we’d do.
There’s a book about sin and it’s consequences that I intend to read at some point but maybe you’ll be interested in it:
amazon.com/Consequences-Cardinal-Henry-Edward-Manning/dp/089555299X
Sin and Its Consequences
So all this really, truly isn’t about “winning” the Eucharist as a “prize for the righteous”. It’s about protecting and saving souls and steering them away from irreparable harm so that everyone can have a rich, fruitful relationship with our God…one that each of us is meant to have!
PS: What I would do differently (if I could do things again) would still attend mass (at least every Sunday) until I could get my life in order, even if that took years. I was nearly lost because of my lapse and I honestly feel I only had a few breaths left before this corpse was done.
ETA: Of course attending mass without receiving Holy Communion until everything was in order.
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mlz
Guest
I have need of an explanation…please with all respect and desire to follow Him in His Church…why did Cardinal Raymond Burke be demoted to a lesser position of authority due to this Synod and his express convictions spoken…why??? I am a convert to the Catholic faith, loved our dear Cardinal and am confused by this process… we respect the value of our homosexual brothers and sisters but do not value those of which have been very faithful servants to the Church but express opinions contrary to others…??? I don’t understand… please help me…
In His Love forever,
mlz
In His Love forever,
mlz
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Sy_Noe
Guest
There’s another thread on Burke’s ouster from his position that you may want to ask on. But the timing I did find interesting and whether it was meant to signal something. But I don’t know Pope Francis’s reasons to say either way. I only must assume the Holy Father had his good reasons. Peace.
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1newcatholic
Guest
I appreciate your sincerity and believe that you have the good of people at heart. I appreciate the difficulties of mixed situations. I am a convert to Catholicism, and my wife is a non-practicing Protestant who (so far) adamantly refuses to consider Catholicism for herself (though she wants our daughter to be baptized and catechized… so there is still hopeThere’s not an easy answer is there 1newcatholic
But I’m telling you this in all sincerity, it is not charitable or merciful to allow someone to think it’s ok to continue in behavior that God has forbidden…
)There is often a huge, unspoken leap in logic in these kinds of conversations–we know that Jesus spoke against divorce and remarriage, especially when “two become one flesh” (i.e., a husband and wife have children), but it doesn’t automatically follow that God cannot forgive the sin of divorce and remarriage without destroying the second marriage, or that a second marriage can never be valid, or that somehow (real issue alert): annulments shouldn’t be easier to get for people in irregular situations.
Granted, those are conclusions that have often been drawn, but they are not the only possible conclusions to draw–hence the reason for the synod. The church is asking itself, “Are we locked into one practice for all time, or are we allowed to adjust the ways in which we apply doctrine?” I’m glad that Pope Francis identified and attempted to correct the common error of “traditionalism,” or being bound to the legal letter of the text, refusing to allow God to “surprise” us, because otherwise I wouldn’t be able to escape this text:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,[a] and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long. 6 They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and to have people call them rabbi. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students.** 9 And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah.[c] 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them.[d] 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell[e] as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the sanctuary is bound by nothing, but whoever swears by the gold of the sanctuary is bound by the oath.’ 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the sanctuary that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘Whoever swears by the altar is bound by nothing, but whoever swears by the gift that is on the altar is bound by the oath.’ 19 How blind you are! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar, swears by it and by everything on it; 21 and whoever swears by the sanctuary, swears by it and by the one who dwells in it; 22 and whoever swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by the one who is seated upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup,[f] so that the outside also may become clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. 28 So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them.[d] 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell[e] as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the sanctuary is bound by nothing, but whoever swears by the gold of the sanctuary is bound by the oath.’ 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the sanctuary that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘Whoever swears by the altar is bound by nothing, but whoever swears by the gift that is on the altar is bound by the oath.’ 19 How blind you are! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar, swears by it and by everything on it; 21 and whoever swears by the sanctuary, swears by it and by the one who dwells in it; 22 and whoever swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by the one who is seated upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup,[f] so that the outside also may become clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. 28 So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
I would not like to be grouped together with religious leaders who are so bound up in the proper observance of the law that they forget the practical function of the law.
Blessings in Christ**
S
Sy_Noe
Guest
I love Pope Francis too. His examples of a gentler tone and his humility seem to have been like a breath of fresh air for so many around the world. I was just texting my non practicing Catholic niece tonight about the conclusion of this synod and how further discussion will entail in the next yr and at the next synod. And her first response was that she loves Pope Francis! Yes he speaks of being open to God’s surprises! It will be interesting to see what surprises God may have yet in store!
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RosyAnne
Guest
Now we are treading in waters that can get very deep 1newcatholic and I know that I for one do not have the brain power to sort through all the intricacies of moral and theological law.
That’s why I’m a Catholic!!!
I trust in the 2,000 years of Church tradition, study and teachings. I get to enjoy the fruits of the work of others, and I truly trust that everything embraced and taught by the Church is divinely revealed.
That’s one thing many people forget: it’s not just the men in red or guys at the top that write up all these doctrines and dogmas and encyclicals. It’s all truly inspired and guided by God. He has not left us alone to sort through it all. I trust in that.
That’s why I’m a Catholic!!!
I trust in the 2,000 years of Church tradition, study and teachings. I get to enjoy the fruits of the work of others, and I truly trust that everything embraced and taught by the Church is divinely revealed.That’s one thing many people forget: it’s not just the men in red or guys at the top that write up all these doctrines and dogmas and encyclicals. It’s all truly inspired and guided by God. He has not left us alone to sort through it all. I trust in that.
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LongingSoul
Guest
I think the movement was in the works before the synod began. I’m not American so don’t know anything about Cardinal Burke other than what the media reports of his comments. We have our conservative contributions to the synod in the form of Cardinal Pell from Australia. He’s a very frank but genuine man of God. Bottom line though… using the media to diss the Pope isn’t the Catholic way. Cardinal Burke might have to rethink that tactic with some Catholic humility.
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One_point
Guest
Thank you, Opus. It seems to me, though, when all is said and done, that the orthodox or "traditionalists’ have been pegged the villains in this papacy
while the liberals/heterodox (whom the pope is calling “do-gooders”) are seen as a well-intentioned but misguided bunch. Things could be worse, though. So the criticism to the liberals is appreciated.
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One_point
Guest
He did not diss him he sought for clarification which many of us sought from many places.
Wonder why the willingness to deny him any nuance or benefit of doubt while endless efforts were made to justify another Cardinal’s remarks dismissing African contributions to the Synod on European matters?- Status