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Deltadeliquent
Guest
Rosyann, that was beautiful!
Thank you.
Thank you.
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RosyAnne
Guest
To me it wasn’t a slight criticism either, the words “deceptive mercy” are chilling and it would make me sit up straight and pay attention to make sure I wasn’t guilty of that or perpetuating it. I think those are the strongest two words that have come from this papacy yet, but I haven’t read all Pope Francis’ statements so I could be wrongThank you, Opus. It seems to me, though, when all is said and done, that the orthodox or "traditionalists’ have been pegged the villains in this papacywhile the liberals/heterodox (whom the pope is calling “do-gooders”) are seen as a well-intentioned but misguided bunch. Things could be worse, though. So the criticism to the liberals is appreciated.
As I said way back on page 1, I think he fairly described the extreme factions on both sides.
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RosyAnne
Guest
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FollowChrist34
Guest
I, too, like Cardinal Burke and am sorry at the demotion. I don’t know the reasons; I personally wouldn’t rule out politics, but obviously I have no inside knowledge whatsoever. I would just say that often a life in Christ ends up not unlike his - in other words, just because someone suffers misfortune doesn’t mean they are not loved by God; they are being used for some redemptive purpose, some good. I think Cardinal Burke’s finest hour of his entire life could well turn out to be this Synod and the next. He has shown incredible courage and conviction, which has done a lot for the Church, for you, for me. Would that have happened in better circumstances? Who knows. Life is funny that way.
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gilliam
Guest
It looks as though Cardinal Burke was told of his reassignment prior to the Synod. We heard rumors from blogs here at CAF prior to the Synod. I don’t think anyone but Cardinal Burke and the Holy Father know why he was reassigned. It could have been for reasons we are not familiar with so I wouldn’t speculate now. Just pray for both men, they have a lot of pressure in their jobs.
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Justin_Swanton
Guest
In a speech full of some very moving passages, I have just one tiny question. This part:
a) it is a grave intrinsic disorder;
b) one must make a distinction between an individual homosexual who is sincerely battling with his homosexuality and trying to find his way back to God, and a homosexual couple who might affirm they are on a gradual path but want the Church to accept their current status quo and let them sit in the pew together. The former can be welcomed, the latter must be shown the door.
My position on Communion for divorced remarrieds is this:
It can ***never ***be permitted as it would amount to institutionalised sacrilege. The only case in which it might be possible is for a couple, who for the sake of their children, remain under the same roof but live in separate bedrooms and give proof they are living celibate lives. Cardinal Kasper has made clear he doesn’t have this exception in mind.
Does that make me guilty of hostile inflexibility?
If it doesn’t can I cite, in support of my intransigent opposition to anything that even hints of acceptance of Communion for divorced remarrieds or social acceptance of homosexuality, this passage from the speech:
- One, a temptation to hostile inflexibility, that is, wanting to close oneself within the written word, (the letter) and not allowing oneself to be surprised by God, by the God of surprises, (the spirit); within the law, within the certitude of what we know and not of what we still need to learn and to achieve. From the time of Christ, it is the temptation of the zealous, of the scrupulous, of the solicitous and of the so-called – today – “traditionalists” and also of the intellectuals.
a) it is a grave intrinsic disorder;
b) one must make a distinction between an individual homosexual who is sincerely battling with his homosexuality and trying to find his way back to God, and a homosexual couple who might affirm they are on a gradual path but want the Church to accept their current status quo and let them sit in the pew together. The former can be welcomed, the latter must be shown the door.
My position on Communion for divorced remarrieds is this:
It can ***never ***be permitted as it would amount to institutionalised sacrilege. The only case in which it might be possible is for a couple, who for the sake of their children, remain under the same roof but live in separate bedrooms and give proof they are living celibate lives. Cardinal Kasper has made clear he doesn’t have this exception in mind.
Does that make me guilty of hostile inflexibility?
If it doesn’t can I cite, in support of my intransigent opposition to anything that even hints of acceptance of Communion for divorced remarrieds or social acceptance of homosexuality, this passage from the speech:
- The temptation to come down off the Cross, to please the people, and not stay there, in order to fulfil the will of the Father; to bow down to a worldly spirit instead of purifying it and bending it to the Spirit of God.
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CaptFun
Guest
I find that very confusing too. And of course it was not addressed in the Pope’s remarks here.
They were closing remarks, ceremonially ending the Synod. A lot of thanking, as is proper to the occasion. But on the whole lacking an understandable (to me) synopsis of what was accomplished, and what changes (if any) have been made. Where there is lack of clarity, there is the opportunity for people to provide their own. Hence the confusion we saw with “the spirit of Vatican II” being invoked to justify many a Church innovation (some rather dubious).
Rather than a summary statement, I saw a rather broad array of observations on the part of Pope Francis. I’ll take some time, then read it (them) again.
Cardinal Burke has always seemed to me to be a good, holy, clear teacher of the faith.
Replacing him would be necessary at some point I guess, but for some reason I am not expecting his replacement to be an improvement. I’d be delighted to be wrong about that. But I am grateful for the service and guidance of Cardinal Burke … and generally agreed with his teaching, counsels and charitable warnings to the erring.
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LongingSoul
Guest
One of the things I’ve noticed about hostile inflexibility in these matters, is the tactic of making strawman arguments to rail against. The Pope made very clear numerous times prior to the synod, the core substance of Church doctrine regarding these issues. The irritating thing that emerged from the ultra conservative observers and commentators was this characterisation of an ‘enemy’ proposing open slather on the communion queue and gay marriage ceremonies. My question is what the heck does that achieve here? When Pope Francis takes pains to state the bottom line and yet others, either ignorantly or maliciously misrepresent his position as overriding the traditional teaching… my spidey senses start buzzing with curiosity. The Pharisees loved to try to trick Jesus too. Case in point, today’s (Sunday) gospel!!! I’m constantly amazed at the pertinence of the gospels to deal with these issues over the last month in the life of the Catholic Church!
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Lion_IRC
Guest
There’s nothing hostile about my inflexibility.
…apart from the inflexible nature of it.
…apart from the inflexible nature of it.
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graciew
Guest
This is a speech addressed to all participants which includes an explanation of different temptations .
If you want to read the Final Report , there is another thread in this section.
Maybe that is what you are looking for.
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gilliam
Guest
I liked this part of the speech:
We will speak a little bit about the Pope, now, in relation to the Bishops [laughing]. So, the duty of the Pope is that of guaranteeing the unity of the Church; it is that of reminding the faithful of their duty to faithfully follow the Gospel of Christ; it is that of reminding the pastors that their first duty is to nourish the flock – to nourish the flock – that the Lord has entrusted to them, and to seek to welcome – with fatherly care and mercy, and without false fears – the lost sheep. I made a mistake here. I said welcome: [rather] to go out and find them.
His duty is to remind everyone that authority in the Church is a service, as Pope Benedict XVI clearly explained, with words I cite verbatim: “The Church is called and commits herself to exercise this kind of authority which is service and exercises it not in her own name, but in the name of Jesus Christ… through the Pastors of the Church, in fact: it is he who guides, protects and corrects them, because he loves them deeply. But the Lord Jesus, the supreme Shepherd of our souls, has willed that the Apostolic College, today the Bishops, in communion with the Successor of Peter… to participate in his mission of taking care of God’s People, of educating them in the faith and of guiding, inspiring and sustaining the Christian community, or, as the Council puts it, ‘to see to it… that each member of the faithful shall be led in the Holy Spirit to the full development of his own vocation in accordance with Gospel preaching, and to sincere and active charity’ and to exercise that liberty with which Christ has set us free (cf. Presbyterorum Ordinis, 6)… and it is through us,” Pope Benedict continues, “that the Lord reaches souls, instructs, guards and guides them. St Augustine, in his Commentary on the Gospel of St John, says: ‘let it therefore be a commitment of love to feed the flock of the Lord’ (cf. 123, 5); this is the supreme rule of conduct for the ministers of God, an unconditional love, like that of the Good Shepherd, full of joy, given to all, attentive to those close to us and solicitous for those who are distant (cf. St Augustine, Discourse 340, 1; Discourse 46, 15), gentle towards the weakest, the little ones, the simple, the sinners, to manifest the infinite mercy of God with the reassuring words of hope (cf. ibid., Epistle, 95, 1).”
We will speak a little bit about the Pope, now, in relation to the Bishops [laughing]. So, the duty of the Pope is that of guaranteeing the unity of the Church; it is that of reminding the faithful of their duty to faithfully follow the Gospel of Christ; it is that of reminding the pastors that their first duty is to nourish the flock – to nourish the flock – that the Lord has entrusted to them, and to seek to welcome – with fatherly care and mercy, and without false fears – the lost sheep. I made a mistake here. I said welcome: [rather] to go out and find them.
His duty is to remind everyone that authority in the Church is a service, as Pope Benedict XVI clearly explained, with words I cite verbatim: “The Church is called and commits herself to exercise this kind of authority which is service and exercises it not in her own name, but in the name of Jesus Christ… through the Pastors of the Church, in fact: it is he who guides, protects and corrects them, because he loves them deeply. But the Lord Jesus, the supreme Shepherd of our souls, has willed that the Apostolic College, today the Bishops, in communion with the Successor of Peter… to participate in his mission of taking care of God’s People, of educating them in the faith and of guiding, inspiring and sustaining the Christian community, or, as the Council puts it, ‘to see to it… that each member of the faithful shall be led in the Holy Spirit to the full development of his own vocation in accordance with Gospel preaching, and to sincere and active charity’ and to exercise that liberty with which Christ has set us free (cf. Presbyterorum Ordinis, 6)… and it is through us,” Pope Benedict continues, “that the Lord reaches souls, instructs, guards and guides them. St Augustine, in his Commentary on the Gospel of St John, says: ‘let it therefore be a commitment of love to feed the flock of the Lord’ (cf. 123, 5); this is the supreme rule of conduct for the ministers of God, an unconditional love, like that of the Good Shepherd, full of joy, given to all, attentive to those close to us and solicitous for those who are distant (cf. St Augustine, Discourse 340, 1; Discourse 46, 15), gentle towards the weakest, the little ones, the simple, the sinners, to manifest the infinite mercy of God with the reassuring words of hope (cf. ibid., Epistle, 95, 1).”
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RosslynV
Guest
Francis didn’t get what he wanted but I do not discount his intelligence/craftiness. He will find a way next year.
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LongingSoul
Guest
That is malicious and un-Catholic.
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Tigg
Guest
One always has the free will to change their situation. That’s what life is all about. C-H-O-I-C-E-S and the consequences that result from our own decisions.
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John_Matrix
Guest
Interesting reading these posts close to one another, since they appear to be exact opposites…
And Pope Francis is many things, but clear is not one of them. Taking the media out of it, but they will obsfucate anything, when serious, interested Catholics cannot grasp what you are trying to say as often as happens on here (and other similar places), it means one of two things - either everyone else is too dense to clearly get what you are saying, or you clarity is lacking (which may be his intent, but lets not pretend otherwise).
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LongingSoul
Guest
When you say “and other similar places”, what do you mean. I look around the internet lots, but this is the only site that I’ve posted on for a couple of years?
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Tigg
Guest
Well, we actually do not know the reasons he was demoted. We are assuming things that may not be true. Did you read the good cardinal’s response to this? It displayed a readiness to serve God wherever he was assigned. Complete obedience. I believe he is one of the stars in God’s sky. Do you not think the Lord will use him to accomplish His purposes no matter what position he may be in?
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clem456
Guest
The Pope is not referring to doctrines and positions in the paragraph you quote. He is speaking about temptations. He is pastoring his flock, not attempting to formulate doctrine. I’m not sure why you feel the need to restate the Church’s doctrine or dogma in your post, as if they are in question.
(If it’s any consolation, he also speaks to the temptations "liberals and progressives’ encounter. Why did you not speculate on those as well?)
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jmr_1985
Guest
Great response. Cardinal Burke is an amazing servant of the Church. I too am very sad about his demotion but I know that God will continue to use him in whatever role he is placed, as he himself said in an interview this week. Many great Priests have faced demotions or other setbacks in their ministry while on this earth: Ven. Fulton Sheen, St. Padre Pio, and for the most extreme example, St. John of the Cross.
JMR
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John_Matrix
Guest
Mostly specific blogs I enjoy reading and their comments, or the comments sections of various Catholic websites (Catholic Planet, Roerate Caeli, etc.) Plus, my entire family and many friends are Catholic, as well as my men’s Lectio Divina group.
Pope Francis has been anything but perfectly clear, but again, he may see what he says as enough. He certainly isn’t stupid, but how many times have there been clarifications of an interview or speech? The media only time that I recall tried to spin Pope Emeritus’s words in a way that was potentially changing of Catholic teaching. He was pretty stark in that regard.
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