Pope Francis spoke of being 'dazzled' by girl, possible change of celibacy rule

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I personally don’t think it would change the child abuse thing much. Let’s be honest, straight male priests who are breaking their vows are not molesting children, they’re having affairs with women. People seem to not think that it happens, but I’m sure it’s much much more common than child abuse. The difference is that no one ever talks about it and even if it came out that it was quite common, the media would never run with such a story because not many people would care much. It wouldn’t create all that much controversy.

I’m not saying that every priest has affairs with women. Probably most don’t, but I’m sure there is a fairly sizable number who have at one point in their lives.
 
Hi all,

I really fail to see what the big deal is. This is matter of discipline that can change. Maybe it’s time for it to change, maybe it isn’t. I think there are beneficial outcomes and aspects of both priestly celibacy and marriage.
 
If all priests could marry problems of divorce/annulment, alimony and who gets custody of the children would enter the church - an open door for the secular media to have a field day against the church and her teachings.
I once read an article by a former Episcopal Priest (now Catholic) who was one of the first to come in in the early 1980’s. I think it was Fr. Ryland. While I liked how Jorge Cardinal Bregoglio (now Pope Francis I) said that a married priest would also inherit a mother-in-law, one thing that this former Episcopal Priest noted was how upset a wife would become if her husband (the priest) was being transferred to a parish that was located in the ghetto of a large city.

I do know a few married priests (at least three serve in my diocese), and I know one in my diocese who is a widower. All of them are good solid priests. One of the married priests does say it is a struggle to balance two vocations. I also know in the case of widowers (and even a seminarian who has a valid annulment - not all dioceses will accept a seminarian with a decree of nullity) many dioceses require that all financial obligations to children be resolved before entering seminary. This is why most widowers are older.

Several permanent deacons that I know of do not enter the diaconate until retirement from there 9-to-5 jobs, which IMHO is due to time constraints with holding down a job and raising a family. Wives of permanent deacons are required to attend formation classes sometimes with their husbands too. Should the wife pass away after the deacon is ordained, the permanent deacon remains celibate until his own death.

Many younger priests and seminarians in the 1960’s and 1970’s thought with the advent of the Second Vatican Council, celibacy would end. Many priests under 40 years of age left the priesthood during this time. In fact, the Archbishop of Chicago gave permission for high school seminarians at Quigley to date circa 1965 - thinking that celibacy might end.

In my younger days, I used to think celibacy was the issue for the priest shortage. I don’t think that way anymore. The vocations crisis began with the watering down after the Second Vatican Council. Growing up through the 1970’s and 1980’s, I never heard much encouragement for vocations, thank yous to many priests, and I don’t recall a priest getting many dinner invites from his parishioners (which needs to happen more often).
 
Much of this is already improving without rescinding the discipline of celibacy. Many seminaries in the United States are full to the point that additional dormitories are having to be built to accommodate them. The pontificate of Benedict XVI had a huge effect on vocations. In addition, diocese with a strong reputation for orthodoxy to doctrine and faithfulness to the liturgy are seeing very solid numbers in terms of priestly vocations.

Things will continue to be rough in the short terms regarding vocations. However, assuming that Pope Francis continues to appoint solid bishops the way the Benedict did, and that the reform of the liturgy continues and spreads to the whole country, I believe there is solid evidence to suggest that vocations will increase dramatically going forward.
Yes, I hope **Pope Francis I continues to appoint solid bishops, the way Benedict XVI has. ** Looking at the United States, there are at least six vacant sees that I am aware of. One (Fort Worth) is in my own backyard.

I knew with Pope Benedict XVI resigning, many bishop appointments (particularly in the United States) would be temporarily postponed. The Diocese of El Paso has been without a bishop for 16 months, and the Diocese of Bridgeport (CT), has been vacant for 10 months. Fort Worth (TX) and Rochester (NY) have been vacant since September 2012. Fargo (ND) is still vacant, since Bishop Aquila was elevated to the Archbishop of Denver (CO).

Bishop Vann, formerly of the Fort Worth Diocese, was appointed to the Diocese of Orange (California), and I’m sure Vann will do an excellent job there - I know he has quite a bit of work to do, but IMHO Vann did an excellent job in Fort Worth - I find my visits to Catholic parishes there to be much more faithful than I did ten years ago.

Bishop Lori, formerly of Bridgeport (CT), was elevated to the Archbishop of Baltimore. There’s a local priest in the Bridgeport diocese that I am praying for to become the new bishop there.

However, IMHO, the vacant see that needs the most help is Rochester (NY). Rochester needs a solid bishop, and I pray someone with the mentality and orthodoxy like Bishop Merlino of Madison (WI), Bishop Sample (now Archbishop of Portland Oregon), or Bishop Burbidge of Raleigh (NC) will become the new bishop in Rochester. I’m also praying that by the end of this summer, a coadjutor bishop that has the mentality of one of the three bishops mentioned above will be chosen for the Diocese of Albany (NY).
 
As an ordinary lay man what we expect to find in a priest is his emulation of Christ. Hence it is always recommendable to have a celibate male priesthood. Jesus choose male as his apostles, and he himself was a male. Further he insisted that a man has to leave every thing including his father mother and wife to follow him. It means complete fidility to the faith is required of a priest. For him perhaps the local parish is his bride. I am using this analogy as Christ is treated as bridegroom of the Church. The tradition of male celebate priesthood makes sense.
 
As an ordinary lay man what we expect to find in a priest is his emulation of Christ. Hence it is always recommendable to have a celibate male priesthood. Jesus choose male as his apostles, and he himself was a male. Further he insisted that a man has to leave every thing including his father mother and wife to follow him. It means complete fidility to the faith is required of a priest. For him perhaps the local parish is his bride. I am using this analogy as Christ is treated as bridegroom of the Church. The tradition of male celebate priesthood makes sense.
👍

Got a question.
Did the married apostles leave their wives? Did any others that followed Him during His time here? Or does this refer to those chosen later? Just wondering, I don’t know.
 
The UGCC has quite a few seminarians (as in they are forced to turn people away)

What do you mean “many of us who live in the lay state as single people must be just as celebate [sic] as any priest”? Celibacy is abstinence from marriage which laity are not forced to adhere to whereas priests absolutely must adhere to this.
I think they confused celibacy with chastity; the terms do not mean the same.

Celibacy is permanent abstinence from marriage. Only priests and religious are called to celibacy.

Chastity is faithfulness in marriage, or if unmarried, abstinence from sexual activity. Everybody is called to chastity.

But just as those who go into celibacy abstain from sex, so too are called those who are unmarried.

ICXC NIKA
 
Aren’t single people also called to live celibately until they marry?
 
This story reminds me of one about St. John of the Cross, who was an extreme ascetic, as we know. One day a beautiful town woman came to his small home and offered herself to him. He was able to talk her out of it and point her to a spiritual direction, but he confided later that he had been temped in every way.

That makes him and Pope Francis more real and much more precious for their decisions and sacrifice to stay on the priestly, celibate track.
 

Then, if we must admit a married clergy, what then about married religious communities ? See, you can hardly grant the one and deny the other, can you ?
That would be up to the individual religious communities to decide; theoretically they have the autonomy to do so now if they chose. However, there are practical matters that make this almost impossible.

The religious vocation requires an absolute oath of fidelity, first to God, and then to the religious superior. A married man cannot take this oath, as his duty is first to God, and then to his wife and children.

Married “religious life” would be a whole new vocation entirely.
 
Hi all,

I really fail to see what the big deal is. This is matter of discipline that can change. Maybe it’s time for it to change, maybe it isn’t. I think there are beneficial outcomes and aspects of both priestly celibacy and marriage.
:amen:

In a nutshell. 👍
 
I personally don’t think it would change the child abuse thing much. Let’s be honest, straight male priests who are breaking their vows are not molesting children, they’re having affairs with women. People seem to not think that it happens, but I’m sure it’s much much more common than child abuse. The difference is that no one ever talks about it and even if it came out that it was quite common, the media would never run with such a story because not many people would care much. It wouldn’t create all that much controversy.

I’m not saying that every priest has affairs with women. Probably most don’t, but I’m sure there is a fairly sizable number who have at one point in their lives.
Agreed. Teachers don’t take a vow of celibacy and the US public school system produces more sexually abused children every year than the “priest scandal” did in 40 years.
 
This story reminds me of one about St. John of the Cross, who was an extreme ascetic, as we know. One day a beautiful town woman came to his small home and offered herself to him. He was able to talk her out of it and point her to a spiritual direction, but he confided later that he had been temped in every way.

That makes him and Pope Francis more real and much more precious for their decisions and sacrifice to stay on the priestly, celibate track.
we are human…
 
Agreed. Teachers don’t take a vow of celibacy and the US public school system produces more sexually abused children every year than the “priest scandal” did in 40 years.
That’s not much of a comparison, though. There are more differences between priests and public school teachers than just a vow of celibacy. 🤷

Why do we want to compare our Catholic priests to secular teachers? Don’t we demand a great deal more from them? Should we brush aside our problems because there is a group of people who don’t even have to believe in God to do their jobs, whose members as a whole act worse?

Alan
 
That’s not much of a comparison, though. There are more differences between priests and public school teachers than just a vow of celibacy. 🤷

Why do we want to compare our Catholic priests to secular teachers? Don’t we demand a great deal more from them? Should we brush aside our problems because there is a group of people who don’t even have to believe in God to do their jobs, whose members as a whole act worse?

Alan
I don’t think he is so much comparing them as arguing that the belief that celibacy results in more sexual abused children is stupid and that this proves it is also factually wrong.
 
I don’t think he is so much comparing them as arguing that the belief that celibacy results in more sexual abused children is stupid and that this proves it is also factually wrong.
Maybe so, and I’m saying it proves nothing about celibacy. The only valid comparison would be to compare celibate priests to non-celibate priests. Just grabbing an arbitrary secular profession out of the air and saying they are worse than priests has no validity whatsoever.

How does being a public school teacher, perhaps a pro-choice, liberal atheist, bear any comparison at all to being a priest? I would be surprised if their rate of problems is less than 50 times that of priests. 🤷 None of that says anything about celibacy, unless we find that non-celibate priests molest more than celibate priests. If non-celibate priests molested as often as non-celibate public school teachers, then I’d say we have something here about celibacy itself, which IS the object of discussion.

If you can bring credible facts to the table and make a comparison that makes sense, then you may prove something. As long as it’s just throwing around statements like “the public teachers are worse than celibate priests” gosh I could make something up too and say, “non-celibate bus drivers and dog catchers molest more than celibate priests,” and I will also have proven nothing about celibacy. I really think this is extremely simple. You are entitled to opinion about celibacy, but don’t give me this story and claim it proved it. First 1) make a valid comparison, and 2) bring in facts and figures from credible sources, if you want to actually prove anything at all.

Alan
 
The comparison is due to the fact that both deal with children on a regular basis and yet the one that doesn’t require celibacy is worse yet gets less press.
 
The comparison is due to the fact that both deal with children on a regular basis and yet the one that doesn’t require celibacy is worse yet gets less press.
Oh.

I’m guessing one reason it might get less press is that we kind of “expect” this sort of thing from time to time in the secular world? In the religious also we have the idea of hypocrisy along with bad behavior, which creates more outrage and gets more attention than just plain old everyday crime.

But still, this says nothing about celibacy and how it does or does not impact chances of sex crimes. It just talks about how it’s reported. Of course, greater reporting of crimes outside the Church doesn’t make those inside the Church any more justified – just more secular.

That said, I’m not so sure there isn’t just as much reporting when a school teacher is caught in a sex crime with a student. I see headlines to that effect from time to time, frankly more often than reports of Church crimes. Stereotypes? That’s another issue.

Search Google for “school teacher child molestation” and here are the “news” hits, all within the past two days:

About 38,000,000 results (0.33 seconds)
Search Results
News for school teacher child molestation
Sunday school teacher gets 7 years in child molestation case

KPTV.com ‎- 19 hours ago

Ryan Whitaker was convicted in February on two counts of child molestation.
Cobb coach charged with child molestation
Atlanta Journal Constitution‎ - 2 days ago

Chula Vista elementary school teacher now accused of molesting 3 boys
10News‎ - 1 day ago

What about “priest child molestation”? We get:

News for priest child molestation
Another delay in trial of suspended Redding priest accused of child molestation

Record-Searchlight ‎- 16 hours ago
SACRAMENTO — A new trial date was set today in Sacramento County Superior Court for a suspended Redding priest charged with seven …

Priest accused of abuse in 1980s
ABQ Journal‎ - 3 days ago

So I can neither confirm nor deny that there is “more reporting” about priest misconduct than secular teacher misconduct. Perhaps if we took the number of news reports and divided by the number of actual incidents, analyzed separately for secular teachers v. priests, then we would have a number for “reporting rate” and we can actually see which kind of case gets most attention on average. Until then, your assertion that reporting of priests is greater than of secular crimes, is simply an assertion that may or may not have basis in fact.

And we’re back to square zero on whether removing celibacy requirement for priests would change the number of crimes, or in which direction.

Honestly I’m not trying to make a career out of proving you wrong. My point is that we tend to throw around arbitrary assertions like “this group is worse,” or “that group is favored by the press” as if they are true, without any testing, and use them as “concrete evidence” on one side or other in an argument. Moreover, making statements like this are just miniature “cloaking” statements which tend to cover up the problems, which is what got the Church in so much trouble in the first place.

Speaking of current news reporting, let’s see what the Holy Father is saying about molestation within the Church, as reported by the secular media:

Pope seeks decisive action against sex abuse
By FRANCES D’EMILIO | Associated Press – Fri, Apr 5, 2013

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis directed the Vatican on Friday to act decisively on clergy sex abuse cases and punish pedophile priests, saying the Catholic Church’s “credibility” was on the line. The announcement was quickly dismissed by some victims’ advocates as just more talk, while others lobbying for reform in the church held out hope the new pontiff might challenge the Vatican’s bureaucratic culture seen as fostering a cover-up mentality.

Clergy abuse victims called for swift and bold action from Francis as soon as he was elected pope last month. Yet in his homeland, Roman Catholic activists had characterized him as being slow to act against such abuse in his years heading the Argentine church.

The Vatican’s brief announcement about Francis’ meeting Friday with the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith — the office that shapes and enforces policy on what to do about any abuse allegations and what happens to the abusers — depicted Francis as urging assertive action to protect minors.

“The Holy Father in a special way urged that the Congregation, following the line sought by Benedict XVI, act decisively in sex abuse cases, above all promoting measures to protect minors, assistance for all those who in the past suffered such violence, necessary measures against the guilty,” the statement said of Francis’ meeting with Bishop Gerhard Ludwig Mueller.

The Vatican quoted Francis as saying abuse victims were always present “in his attention and in his prayers.” It was the first announcement by the Vatican that Francis had made dealing with clergy sex abuse a priority of his fledgling papacy, and the pontiff seemed to be putting Mueller on notice that he would tolerate no easing of the crackdown.

Alan
 
I knew with Pope Benedict XVI resigning, many bishop appointments (particularly in the United States) would be temporarily postponed. The Diocese of El Paso has been without a bishop for 16 months, and the Diocese of Bridgeport (CT), has been vacant for 10 months. Fort Worth (TX) and Rochester (NY) have been vacant since September 2012. Fargo (ND) is still vacant, since Bishop Aquila was elevated to the Archbishop of Denver (CO).
Great news - two new bishop appointments today in the United States. Both are from the home diocese of Lincoln (Nebraska).

Msgr. John T. Folda is the new bishop of Fargo. Msgr. Folda is from the Diocese of Lincoln (Nebraska), and spent 14 years as rector of St. Gregory the Great Seminary in Seward, Nebraska. It looks like Pope Francis I picked a good solid priest.

In addition, Bishop Michael Jackels from the Diocese of Wichita was elevated to Archbishop of Dubuque, Iowa today. Like Lincoln, Wichita is also a solid diocese.
However, IMHO, the vacant see that needs the most help is Rochester (NY). Rochester needs a solid bishop, and I pray someone with the mentality and orthodoxy like Bishop Merlino of Madison (WI), Bishop Sample (now Archbishop of Portland Oregon), Bishop Swain from Sioux Falls (SD), or Bishop Burbidge of Raleigh (NC) will become the new bishop in Rochester. I’m also praying that by the end of this summer, a coadjutor bishop that has the mentality of one of the three bishops mentioned above will be chosen for the Diocese of Albany (NY).
Let’s pray that Pope Francis I continues to appoint good bishops, much like his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI.
 
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