Pope Francis to journalist's condom question: the problem is much bigger
- Status
N
NovusFidem
Guest
Honestly, I don’t think I understand what Pope Francis wanted to say here. This was a good opportunity to teach on chastity or something, but instead it seems he was giving carte blanche to each of us to decide for ourselves. You know: “we have bigger things to worry about; when everyone is fed and dressed, then we can discuss if condom use is lawful or not”.
Mentioning Jesus and the question about the Sabbath seemed like a good choice at first. But then you are faced with the problem: “So, it IS ok to use condom, if by doing so you are avoiding overpopulation problems (malnutrition, illnesses, etc.)?”. The analogy fails when you consider that “healing” is a good thing (and, by being good, you should do it even on the Sabbath), while “condom use” we don’t yet know if it is good or not - it was, after all, the question by the journalist: “if condoms are good for prevention, shouldn’t the Church change its stance on its use?”
I know I probably missed something; I usually like his answers, but this one was just too vague to my taste
Mentioning Jesus and the question about the Sabbath seemed like a good choice at first. But then you are faced with the problem: “So, it IS ok to use condom, if by doing so you are avoiding overpopulation problems (malnutrition, illnesses, etc.)?”. The analogy fails when you consider that “healing” is a good thing (and, by being good, you should do it even on the Sabbath), while “condom use” we don’t yet know if it is good or not - it was, after all, the question by the journalist: “if condoms are good for prevention, shouldn’t the Church change its stance on its use?”
I know I probably missed something; I usually like his answers, but this one was just too vague to my taste
G
gilliam
Guest
Francis also faced a question about the church’s teaching prohibiting use of artificial contraception from a journalist who asked if the church should consider changing its stance on the issue – particularly on the use of condoms – given the continuing spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa.
“The question seems too small to me,” the pontiff responded. “It seems to me also like a partial question.”
“The morality of the church is found on this point, I think, in front of a perplexity,” he said. “Fifth or Sixth commandment? Defend life, or that sexual relations be open to life? This is not the problem. The problem is bigger.”
“This question makes me think of what they asked Jesus one time: ‘Tell me, master, is it licit to heal on the Sabbath?’” Francis continued.
“Malnutrition, exploitation of persons, slave work, lack of drinking water,” he said. “These are the problems.”
“I do not like to descend into reflections that are so casuistic when people are dying,” he continued. “I would say to not think if it is licit or not licit to heal on the Sabbath. I say to humanity: Make justice, and when all are healed, when there is not injustice in this world, we can speak of the Sabbath.”
ncronline.org/news/vatican/francis-world-close-suicide-over-climate-change
“The question seems too small to me,” the pontiff responded. “It seems to me also like a partial question.”
“The morality of the church is found on this point, I think, in front of a perplexity,” he said. “Fifth or Sixth commandment? Defend life, or that sexual relations be open to life? This is not the problem. The problem is bigger.”
“This question makes me think of what they asked Jesus one time: ‘Tell me, master, is it licit to heal on the Sabbath?’” Francis continued.
“Malnutrition, exploitation of persons, slave work, lack of drinking water,” he said. “These are the problems.”
“I do not like to descend into reflections that are so casuistic when people are dying,” he continued. “I would say to not think if it is licit or not licit to heal on the Sabbath. I say to humanity: Make justice, and when all are healed, when there is not injustice in this world, we can speak of the Sabbath.”
ncronline.org/news/vatican/francis-world-close-suicide-over-climate-change
G
gilliam
Guest
He basically said to worry about the big issues first and then when we have fixed them, worry about things like contraception. “Malnutrition, exploitation of persons, slave work, lack of drinking water,” he said. “These are the problems.”Honestly, I don’t think I understand what Pope Francis wanted to say here.
N
NovusFidem
Guest
Yes. But what do we do about contraception? Do we use it? Do we fight against it? He didn’t say.
The journalist wanted to know: “considering all STDs, teen pregnancies, overpopulation issues, shouldn’t the Church change it’s stance on contraception (condom use)?”
“There are bigger problems” is not an answer here, and we often say that in the apologetic forum. “Just because people are at war, or dying of starvation, it is no excuse to ignore abortion”, isn’t that what we often say? (and just because we have abortion to worry about, doesn’t mean we need to ignore all the other problems in the world). That said, in the case of condoms: what should we do?
What would be an answer to the journalist? I can think of two:
- Yes, we need to change the teaching, as contraception has become a good alternative to social problems (such as STDs), specially considering people do not see value in Chastity anymore; or
- No, we don’t need to change the teaching. There is an underlying problem, in that people are not making a good, oriented use of their God-given sexuality. But just because people are erring on this, doesn’t mean it is right to err again by using contraception. (and then he could explain why chastity is awesome, and why contraception causes more problems than it solves).
I am not doubting him, I just think he didn’t word his answer well enough…
G
gilliam
Guest
We fight the big battles first; people are dying all around the place in Africa.
N
NovusFidem
Guest
Aren’t they dying of AIDS as well?
I don’t think that, to the secularized world and specially to Africans, HIV and AIDS are a minor issue. They have malnutrition? Yes, but HIV spread is a truly big issue over there. (and they often blame the Church for being against condom use)
Here on the West, people with HIV can live rather well. We have medicine and treatment, and not many transmissible diseases (by water or air) to worry about. But in Africa? With malaria, malnutrition, yellow fever, and so many intestinal parasites? An infection by HIV quickly develops into AIDS, and quickly kills a person.
So, we either change the teaching, or explain the alternative. Do we have an alternative to condoms? Yep, a great one in fact: chastity. Why didn’t the Pope focus on it? Why didn’t he just answer the journalist with a yes or no?
J
JimG
Guest
It might have been mentioned that, to the extent that condom use encourages extramarital sex, it also increases HIV and other STD’s.
P
phil19034
Guest
Yes, the Pope could have said this, but everyone knows that the abstinence and chastity are is the Church’s position.
Those answers do not work well on people who do not view fornication as a mortal sin.
In those situations, it is helpful sometimes to focus on the larger issues. The focus on the Church’s stance on condoms is ridiculous because there are plenty of non-Catholic charities that give condoms or could give more. People are not going to stop dying if the Catholic Church allowed condoms.
People die from malaria, malnutrition, yellow fever, and so many intestinal parasites in Africa everyday without HIV/AIDS. Allowing condoms isn’t going to solve that. However, if you eliminate (greatly reduce) malaria, malnutrition, yellow fever, intestinal parasites, etc; then less HIV/AIDS infected Africans will die. Also, if you increase education and economic opportunities, less Africans will become infected.
Plus, how many people are receiving HIV/AIDS over there from non-sexual contact? I don’t know, but I would guess that it’s much higher than in the Western World.
This is what the non-Catholic pagan or secularist understands.
However, we all know that if they become devout Catholics who are chaste, their risks of HIV/AIDS goes way down too.
God Bless
M
marymary1975
Guest
Don’t you see that the journalist question is a trick question to make the Pope.shake and slid? His question is like when anti life people.bring the rape argument when 99% of abortions have absolutely nothin to do with rape. The pope was very smart in answering as he didn’t allow himself to fall into the journalist trap. There are bigger problems in Africa for a journalist to be pushing his first world agenda into a place that has very different needs.
P
phil19034
Guest
A
Art321
Guest
I agree with your sentiment; there are many important issues on the table. I completely understand this and we must do everything within our power to change these complex problems that often leave people in terrible conditions or sadly dead.
Yet, we must also do everything to proclaim the Truth with clarity as well. Even though the world knows what we teach, they have completely become deaf in this regard. Perhaps a new way of proclaiming the Truth must be done, yet it must be done as well. Just my thoughts…
J
JimG
Guest
I agree. Chastity saves lives and prevents disease.
N
NovusFidem
Guest
Thank you all for the answers, and thank you, Art, for the understanding. To be honest, my irritation with the Pope’s answer is purely on an intellectual level: his answer was practically a non-answer, and that irks me.
That it was a tricky question, or that it was an already (tiredly) discussed issue, those are all facts. But if he didn’t want to answer (or discuss it again), it would have sounded more candid if he simply said (as he said before): “I don’t want to focus on those issues; the stance of the Church is already known”.
Otherwise, I’ll stand on the opinion that it would have been better if he used the moment to talk about chastity…
A
Art321
Guest
Yes, that could have been a great response! He would have been respectable to the journalist while reaffirming Church Teaching!
L
LongingSoul
Guest
Honestly, I can imagine that people were irritated by Jesus for not answering questions with direct yes/no or clear prohibitions. There are so many instances where he is asked a question and His answer is basically another question that requires the asker to look inside himself.
G
gilliam
Guest
Pope Francis on Monday described condoms as a “Band-Aid” solution to what he sees as the continent’s larger and more urgent humanitarian challenges.
The pontiff said questions about condom use are “too small” in the context of hunger, a lack of access to drinkable water, slave labor, environmental degradation, and war.
“When we no longer have these problems,” the pontiff said, then the conversation can turn to condoms. In the meantime, he said, “I don’t like doing casuistry,” meaning complicated moral reflections, “when people are dying for a lack of water and hunger.”
The pontiff said he felt “pain” in his encounters with the continent’s poor over the past week, including a visit to a Kenyan slum and a pediatric hospital in the Central African Republic, where a female doctor told him children routinely die of both malaria and malnutrition.
“If humanity doesn’t change course, misery, tragedies, [and] wars will continue, children will keep dying from hunger and injustice,” he said, pointedly asking what the small percentage of elites “that has in its hands 80 percent of the world’s wealth” thinks about the situation.
“This isn’t Communism,” the pope insisted. “It’s the truth.”
cruxnow.com/church/2015/11/30/pope-calls-condoms-a-band-aid-given-africas-bigger-problems/
The pontiff said questions about condom use are “too small” in the context of hunger, a lack of access to drinkable water, slave labor, environmental degradation, and war.
“When we no longer have these problems,” the pontiff said, then the conversation can turn to condoms. In the meantime, he said, “I don’t like doing casuistry,” meaning complicated moral reflections, “when people are dying for a lack of water and hunger.”
The pontiff said he felt “pain” in his encounters with the continent’s poor over the past week, including a visit to a Kenyan slum and a pediatric hospital in the Central African Republic, where a female doctor told him children routinely die of both malaria and malnutrition.
“If humanity doesn’t change course, misery, tragedies, [and] wars will continue, children will keep dying from hunger and injustice,” he said, pointedly asking what the small percentage of elites “that has in its hands 80 percent of the world’s wealth” thinks about the situation.
“This isn’t Communism,” the pope insisted. “It’s the truth.”
cruxnow.com/church/2015/11/30/pope-calls-condoms-a-band-aid-given-africas-bigger-problems/
N
NovusFidem
Guest
Which is why I came here asking for explanation, as I admitted to not understanding.
Bu we, as Catholics, have to admit: the Pope is not perfect. He is allowed mistakes, and this might just be one - which is why I came here to ask and clarify.
L
LongingSoul
Guest
I think it’s avoiding the particular message of the Pope, to dismiss his lack of articulation as a mistake though. He said early on that we have to stop putting so much emphasis on abortion, contraception and gay marriage as being ‘signature sins’… and start focusing on the basics of the gospels like poverty and exclusion and judgement. He often says go read Evangelii Guadium or now Laudato si for the official Church teaching… but he continues to stay strictly in St Francis mode of just ‘being with’ people on the journey.
The Church is in an eschatological phase of theology now and you see the word popping up everywhere now in scripture studies and homilies. It’s basically the study of the end times. The last four things… death, judgement, heaven and hell. So those gospel verses that refer to those things are more urgently contemplated. Ones such as Matthew 25…
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
It’s those key issues that are going to separate the sheep and goats. How did we treat our suffering fellow man? Did we help to relieve their suffering in a practical sense or did we preach law to them so they know why they are suffering?
Pope Francis seems determined to stop the train of thought that’s so focused on rules and to push us towards being non judgemental and going out to others in their need.
G
gilliam
Guest
I really don’t think it was a mistake. Read what he said again, he meant to say what he said and we need to take his words to heart. People are dying over there every day of starvation, war and mistreatment by other humans, stopping that is a much higher priority than going into theological debates about condoms.
- Status