Pope Francis to visit Sweden for Reformation commemoration

[Genesis315]

Well, the Lutherans commemorate Pentecost, so I guess it’s only fair we commemorate their day of foundation

Seriously, though, it all depends what is actually said and done. The Pope would be wrong to praise the foundation of Protestantism in any way, shape, or form. The sins of separation cannot be praised.

However, there can be good ways to jointly commemorate it. Back for the 400th anniversary in 1917, there were joint activities in Germany. Rather than being antagonistic like past celebrations, it was mostly focused on removing unnecessary enmities between Catholics and Protestants in the new German republic. For example, a joint commission was established made up of Protestant and Catholic church historians who worked to overcome polemical stereotypes and exaggerations about both sides of the Reformation.

Ah yes, unity through having a common enemy. Seems to work.

This was basically St. Thomas More’s hope in his day (sadly, it did not come to fruition). In context, the “common enemy” was the invading Turks.
St. Thomas More:

And it is a right heavy thing to see such variousness in our belief rise and grow among ourselves, to the great encouragement of the common enemies of us all, whereby they have our faith in derision and catch hope to overwhelm us all. Yet do three things not a little comfort my mind. The first is that, in some communications had of late together, there hath appeared good likelihood of some good agreement to grow together in one accord of our faith. The second is that in the meanwhile, till this may come to pass, contentions, disputations, and uncharitable behaviour are prohibited and forbidden in effect upon all parties–all such parties, I mean, as fell before to fight for it. The third is that in Germany, for all their diverse opinions, yet as they agree together in profession of Christ’s name, so agree they now together in preparation of a common power, in defence of Christendom against our common enemy the Turk. And I trust in God that this shall not only help us here to strengthen us in this war, but also that, as God hath caused them to agree together in the defence of his name, so shall he graciously bring them to agree together in the truth of his faith. Therefore will I let God work, and leave off contention. And I shall now say nothing but that with which they who are themselves of the contrary mind shall in reason have no cause to be discontented.

 

[Pulvis]

You’re right. The philosophies clash. But the Anglican Ordinariate only brought back those opposed to anything opposed by the church. Could have been by individual conversions but Pope Benedict made it easier as individual parishes.

That I understand and fully support. A return to the One Church, while maintaining their identity. But to openly accredit a branch of Protestantism which in so many ways is diverting from the Teachings of the Church seems counterproductive. Especially given the culture wars ongoing within The Church. Not to mention a seeming approval of the Reformation itself, which was not a reform, but a destruction. Reformers fix what is wrong or broken. As Trent did. Revolutionaries destroy what was and create something anew from their own likes and dislikes. We did not have a Protestant reformation so much as a Protestant revolution which quickly devolved into many different branches each with their own interpretation of how the Church should be designed and operated. I fail to see what is to be celebrated in that.

 

[Genesis315]

I fail to see what is to be celebrated in that.

There’s nothing to be celebrated in that. It did provoke the Church to get its act together, but that was about it. As an aside, when Luther tried to justify himself by saying his actions were helping the Church clean herself up, St. Thomas More responded to him that that’s not necessarily something to be contented about: sometimes, he noted, after a mother gets done whipping her misbehaving son with a stick (Luther was essentially claiming to be God’s stick), she throws the stick into the fire as a sign of renewed peace. Being the stick is not necessarily a good thing.

Anyway, celebration would be a bad thing. But commemoration does not have to be. We can both acknowledge the event and learn from it and an anniversary can provide an opportunity for that. We’ll see how the Pope handles it.

 

[LongingSoul]

The problem is that you’re trying to attract people to the same religion and its papacy they once revolted against. Truths would be a secondary issue IMO. They may like Pope Francis and all but is it possible to (re)convert those to the faith who don’t hold to papal primacy?

OTOH, ecumenism seems to be more about respect than conversion, or at least the way I understand it.

The Pope has said several times that we are not about proselytising but evangelising. Evangelising is about living Christs truths as our way of spreading the Word rather than trying to make the other accept the doctrines to be part of our relationship as Christians.

 

[ProVobis]

That I understand and fully support. A return to the One Church, while maintaining their identity. But to openly accredit a branch of Protestantism which in so many ways is diverting from the Teachings of the Church seems counterproductive. Especially given the culture wars ongoing within The Church. Not to mention a seeming approval of the Reformation itself, which was not a reform, but a destruction. Reformers fix what is wrong or broken. As Trent did. Revolutionaries destroy what was and create something anew from their own likes and dislikes. We did not have a Protestant reformation so much as a Protestant revolution which quickly devolved into many different branches each with their own interpretation of how the Church should be designed and operated. I fail to see what is to be celebrated in that.

I agree.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Reading many posts here and elsewhere, I understand the strong feelings. I can empathize with those feelings. I pick up the “He’s OUR Pope” feeling. Perhaps a bit of jealousy. After all we’ve never had to share our Pope so much before. Pope Francis is unique in that, while Catholics are his focus, he has a way of speaking to all Christians, and even to all humans. So, now he wants to go where many Christian Lutherans are gathering together. Why would he be attending this celebration of the genesis of separation within the Church?

But he isn’t going to celebrate the separation. He’s going to ignite the reunification. He is going to welcome them back to the fold. He has done this many times, in many ways. I suppose we should be used to it by now. Jesus, while on earth, didn’t restrict himself to those that walked with him. He went into the presence (repeatedly) of those who disagreed with him, even at his own peril. In this case, these modern Lutherans are not persecuting anyone. In fact, most have friendly feelings towards the Catholic Church. They are anxious for reconciliation as well. So, why would our Pope stay away? That would be like shunning other Christians. Do we do that as Catholics? I think he is loving his neighbors and I think we should follow his example.

There have also been comments about the Pope offering the Eucharist after meeting with people. How do we know what was said in these private meetings? How do we know a confession and acknowledgement of shared belief in God’s presence (and transubstantiation) wasn’t accomplished? There is a difference between doctrine and individual beliefs. Why would we question anyone who is welcomed by our Holy Father? I wouldn’t even question my local parish priest, let alone the Holy Father.

I think too often, we think in shorter time frames and fail to see the long term goals. Perhaps neither Pope Francis, nor any of us, will see reunification between Lutherans and Catholics, but if it happens somewhere down the line, and this was a major hurdle overcome, the Church will be closer to what we pray for at every Mass: the Church as one Body of Christ.

 

[LongingSoul]

I think too often, we think in shorter time frames and fail to see the long term goals. Perhaps neither Pope Francis, nor any of us, will see reunification between Lutherans and Catholics, but if it happens somewhere down the line, and this was a major hurdle overcome, the Church will be closer to what we pray for at every Mass: the Church as one Body of Christ.

The other really significant thing to remember is that Pope Francis has instituted this Jubilee Year of Mercy to be taken full advantage of seriously. This is a blessed gift of being unshackled by the limits of usual law. There is such emphasis on only extending forgiveness when the other has repented. But most of us have seen at sometime or heard of a case of mercy shown unconditionally, transforming the heart of the unrepentant.

We are in a God blessed season of experiencing that side of our Father.

 

[irishpatrick]

The other really significant thing to remember is that Pope Francis has instituted this Jubilee Year of Mercy to be taken full advantage of seriously. This is a blessed gift of being unshackled by the limits of usual law. There is such emphasis on only extending forgiveness when the other has repented. But most of us have seen at sometime or heard of a case of mercy shown unconditionally, transforming the heart of the unrepentant.

We are in a God blessed season of experiencing that side of our Father.

Yes, the Pope has been emphasizing Divine Mercy for most of his Pontificate, and those actions follow rather shortly after Saint JPII instituted Divine Mercy Sunday. It seems over the last 15 years a major push to have people access God’s Mercy has been a central theme. Perhaps that is because the world so very much needs God’s Mercy, yet I cannot help but think of Saint Faustina and our Lord’s Words to her, as follows:

*You will prepare the world for My final coming. (Diary 429)

Speak to the world about My mercy … It is a sign for the end times. After it will come the Day of Justice. While there is still time, let them have recourse to the fountain of My mercy. (Diary 848)

Tell souls about this great mercy of Mine, because the awful day, the day of My justice, is near. (Diary 965).

I am prolonging the time of mercy for the sake of sinners. But woe to them if they do not recognize this time of My visitation. (Diary 1160)

Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588)

He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice. (Diary 1146).*

ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/coming.htm

 

[Genesis315]

The Pope has said several times that we are not about proselytising but evangelising. Evangelising is about living Christs truths as our way of spreading the Word rather than trying to make the other accept the doctrines to be part of our relationship as Christians.

Not sure where you got these definitions. Proselytism, taken in the negative sense, is defined as such by the Church : “the promotion of a religion by using means, and for motives, contrary to the spirit of the Gospel; that is, which do not safeguard the freedom and dignity of the human person.”

Christ defined evangelization: “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”

Our duty to Christ is to teach others to observe all that Christ taught. Doctrine is teaching–the point of evangelization is for all to “accept the doctrines” as you put it–it is to convert every soul in the world to the truth. As Scripture says, God “wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.” Sometimes we forget the second part of that verse. Yes, we can’t “make” someone do it. Coercing someone would be proselytism in the bad sense above. But we can teach and work with God’s grace to convince other souls of the truth by the refutation of error and the proclamation and defense of truth.

Note, ecumenism, as defined by the Church, specifically has to do with those means taken to reunite corporate bodies of baptized Christians to the unity of the Catholic Church. It is distinct from seeking the conversion of individuals, but both are good. As the Vatican II decree on ecumenism says, "there is no opposition between the two, since both proceed from the marvelous ways of God.”

 

[LongingSoul]

Not sure where you got these definitions. Proselytism, taken in the negative sense, is defined as such by the Church : “the promotion of a religion by using means, and for motives, contrary to the spirit of the Gospel; that is, which do not safeguard the freedom and dignity of the human person.”

Christ defined evangelization: “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”

Our duty to Christ is to teach others to observe all that Christ taught. Doctrine is teaching–the point of evangelization is for all to “accept the doctrines” as you put it–it is to convert every soul in the world to the truth. As Scripture says, God “wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.” Sometimes we forget the second part of that verse. Yes, we can’t “make” someone do it. Coercing someone would be proselytism in the bad sense above. But we can teach and work with God’s grace to convince other souls of the truth by the refutation of error and the proclamation and defense of truth.

Note, ecumenism, as defined by the Church, specifically has to do with those means taken to reunite corporate bodies of baptized Christians to the unity of the Catholic Church. It is distinct from seeking the conversion of individuals, but both are good. As the Vatican II decree on ecumenism says, "there is no opposition between the two, since both proceed from the marvelous ways of God.”

Basically I’m getting my definitions from Pope Francis who is developing those from St JPII and Pope Benedict in most recent times. From Evangelii Gaudium…

1. Pastoral ministry in a missionary style is not obsessed with the disjointed transmission of a multitude of doctrines to be insistently imposed. When we adopt a pastoral goal and a missionary style which would actually reach everyone without exception or exclusion, the message has to concentrate on the essentials, on what is most beautiful, most grand, most appealing and at the same time most necessary. The message is simplified, while losing none of its depth and truth, and thus becomes all the more forceful and convincing.
2. All revealed truths derive from the same divine source and are to be believed with the same faith, yet some of them are more important for giving direct expression to the heart of the Gospel. In this basic core, what shines forth is the beauty of the saving love of God made manifest in Jesus Christ who died and rose from the dead. In this sense, the Second Vatican Council explained, “in Catholic doctrine there exists an order or a ‘hierarchy’ of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith”.[38] This holds true as much for the dogmas of faith as for the whole corpus of the Church’s teaching, including her moral teaching.
3. Saint Thomas Aquinas taught that the Church’s moral teaching has its own “hierarchy”, in the virtues and in the acts which proceed from them.[39] What counts above all else is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6). Works of love directed to one’s neighbour are the most perfect external manifestation of the interior grace of the Spirit: “The foundation of the New Law is in the grace of the Holy Spirit, who is manifested in the faith which works through love”.[40] Thomas thus explains that, as far as external works are concerned, mercy is the greatest of all the virtues: “In itself mercy is the greatest of the virtues, since all the others revolve around it and, more than this, it makes up for their deficiencies. This is particular to the superior virtue, and as such it is proper to God to have mercy, through which his omnipotence is manifested to the greatest degree”.[41]

 

[LongingSoul]

Just reading further into Evangelii Gaudium regarding evangelising…

1. In her ongoing discernment, the Church can also come to see that certain customs not directly connected to the heart of the Gospel, even some which have deep historical roots, are no longer properly understood and appreciated. Some of these customs may be beautiful, but they no longer serve as means of communicating the Gospel. We should not be afraid to re-examine them. At the same time, the Church has rules or precepts which may have been quite effective in their time, but no longer have the same usefulness for directing and shaping people’s lives. Saint Thomas Aquinas pointed out that the precepts which Christ and the apostles gave to the people of God “are very few”.[47] Citing Saint Augustine, he noted that the precepts subsequently enjoined by the Church should be insisted upon with moderation “so as not to burden the lives of the faithful” and make our religion a form of servitude, whereas “God’s mercy has willed that we should be free”.[48] This warning, issued many centuries ago, is most timely today. It ought to be one of the criteria to be taken into account in considering a reform of the Church and her preaching which would enable it to reach everyone.

 

[Pulvis]

Just reading further into Evangelii Gaudium regarding evangelising…

1. In her ongoing discernment, the Church can also come to see that certain customs not directly connected to the heart of the Gospel, even some which have deep historical roots, are no longer properly understood and appreciated. Some of these customs may be beautiful, but they no longer serve as means of communicating the Gospel. We should not be afraid to re-examine them. At the same time, the Church has rules or precepts which may have been quite effective in their time, but no longer have the same usefulness for directing and shaping people’s lives. Saint Thomas Aquinas pointed out that the precepts which Christ and the apostles gave to the people of God “are very few”.[47] Citing Saint Augustine, he noted that the precepts subsequently enjoined by the Church should be insisted upon with moderation “so as not to burden the lives of the faithful” and make our religion a form of servitude, whereas “God’s mercy has willed that we should be free”.[48] This warning, issued many centuries ago, is most timely today. It ought to be one of the criteria to be taken into account in considering a reform of the Church and her preaching which would enable it to reach everyone.

The Holy Father seems to prefer a minimalist approach to the Faith and Traditions. That is his right to do so. But so long as said Traditions are still deemed to be fruitful and approved, we are allowed to continue in their practice.
For what its worth, I have seen protestants use these same quotes to argue against the Traditions and Sacramentals used and approved by holy mother Church. When I first read Evangelii i thought that the inclusion of those quotes were troublesome.

 

[Third_Day]

In October Pope Francis will participate in a Reformation ceremony at a Lutheran Church. This is the prayer that is to be read by a presider during the ceremony.

“Thanks be to you O God for the many guiding theological and spiritual insights that we have all received through the Reformation. Thanks be to you for the good transformations and reforms that were set in motion by the Reformation or by struggling with its challenges. Thanks be to you for the proclamation of the gospel that occurred during the Reformation and that since then has strengthened countless people to live lives of faith in Jesus Christ

lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/dtpw-lrc-liturgy-2016_en.pdf

What theological and spiritual insights were received from the Reformation which denied the Mass is a sacrifice, denied the priesthood, denied the doctrines on purgatory and much more. Isn’t this prayer a slap in the fact to the Canons of the Council of Trent?

Help me make sense of why the Pope would participate in this prayer?

 

[ProVobis]

In October Pope Francis will participate in a Reformation ceremony at a Lutheran Church. This is the prayer that is to be read by a presider during the ceremony.

“Thanks be to you O God for the many guiding theological and spiritual insights that we have all received through the Reformation. Thanks be to you for the good transformations and reforms that were set in motion by the Reformation or by struggling with its challenges. Thanks be to you for the proclamation of the gospel that occurred during the Reformation and that since then has strengthened countless people to live lives of faith in Jesus Christ

lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/dtpw-lrc-liturgy-2016_en.pdf

What theological and spiritual insights were received from the Reformation which denied the Mass is a sacrifice, denied the priesthood, denied the doctrines on purgatory and much more. Isn’t this prayer a slap in the fact to the Canons of the Council of Trent?

Help me make sense of why the Pope would participate in this prayer?

I wish I knew. The Pope praised the documents of Trent some time ago.

 

[Pulvis]

In October Pope Francis will participate in a Reformation ceremony at a Lutheran Church. This is the prayer that is to be read by a presider during the ceremony.

“Thanks be to you O God for the many guiding theological and spiritual insights that we have all received through the Reformation. Thanks be to you for the good transformations and reforms that were set in motion by the Reformation or by struggling with its challenges. Thanks be to you for the proclamation of the gospel that occurred during the Reformation and that since then has strengthened countless people to live lives of faith in Jesus Christ

lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/dtpw-lrc-liturgy-2016_en.pdf

What theological and spiritual insights were received from the Reformation which denied the Mass is a sacrifice, denied the priesthood, denied the doctrines on purgatory and much more. Isn’t this prayer a slap in the fact to the Canons of the Council of Trent?

Help me make sense of why the Pope would participate in this prayer?

It is no secret that some of the documents from Vatican Council II were designed to roll back what some saw as harsh, closed rulings from the council of Trent. There were, and still are, some who see Trent as too strict. Too totalitarian against the protestants. And the attempts to ease those feelings seem to be behind much of what transpired at Vatican II. The opening of the windows allowed a softening of relations with our separated brethren, supposedly. I will not argue this, but i do know that what we have seen in apologies and openings toward the protestants, jews and muslims is part of this agenda.

 

[zz912]

In October Pope Francis will participate in a Reformation ceremony at a Lutheran Church. This is the prayer that is to be read by a presider during the ceremony.

“Thanks be to you O God for the many guiding theological and spiritual insights that we have all received through the Reformation. Thanks be to you for the good transformations and reforms that were set in motion by the Reformation or by struggling with its challenges. Thanks be to you for the proclamation of the gospel that occurred during the Reformation and that since then has strengthened countless people to live lives of faith in Jesus Christ

lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/dtpw-lrc-liturgy-2016_en.pdf

What theological and spiritual insights were received from the Reformation which denied the Mass is a sacrifice, denied the priesthood, denied the doctrines on purgatory and much more. Isn’t this prayer a slap in the fact to the Canons of the Council of Trent?

Help me make sense of why the Pope would participate in this prayer?

That’s a pretty offensive prayer.

 

[SWolf]

In October Pope Francis will participate in a Reformation ceremony at a Lutheran Church. This is the prayer that is to be read by a presider during the ceremony.

“Thanks be to you O God for the many guiding theological and spiritual insights that we have all received through the Reformation. Thanks be to you for the good transformations and reforms that were set in motion by the Reformation or by struggling with its challenges. Thanks be to you for the proclamation of the gospel that occurred during the Reformation and that since then has strengthened countless people to live lives of faith in Jesus Christ

lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/dtpw-lrc-liturgy-2016_en.pdf

What theological and spiritual insights were received from the Reformation which denied the Mass is a sacrifice, denied the priesthood, denied the doctrines on purgatory and much more. Isn’t this prayer a slap in the fact to the Canons of the Council of Trent?

Help me make sense of why the Pope would participate in this prayer?

All it’s missing is a victory lap. Sheesh.

 

[Pulvis]

All it’s missing is a victory lap. Sheesh.

Oh and let us not forget confiscation of Church property, Priests, monks and Nuns run out of European countries, atrocities committed against religious and laity, and millions of believers deceived by charletans posing as clergy. Yea, beautiful thing that reformation.

 

[LongingSoul]

All it’s missing is a victory lap. Sheesh.

Time as it inevitably does, brings clarity and softened hearts to the reconciliation table. It is rightly acknowledged today that there were some entrenched practices happening in the Church around that time which needed to be addressed. The reformation had the effect of the Church doing some necessary theological housecleaning. To that end it did some good.

 

[SWolf]

Time as it inevitably does, brings clarity and softened hearts to the reconciliation table. It is rightly acknowledged today that there were some entrenched practices happening in the Church around that time which needed to be addressed. The reformation had the effect of the Church doing some necessary theological housecleaning. To that end it did some good.

Housecleaning does not include burning the house down.