Pope Francis to wash feet of prisoners in pre-Easter Mass

[JReducation]

My general observations:

I don’t believe the Pope is washing the feet of the inmates for any other reason than he thinks it’s the right thing to do.

I see all kinds of motives imputed to his.recent actions.

I see questions about his real versus apparent humility.

People wondering why he’s changing timeless traditions.

As John Wayne might say: “Sometimes a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do”

I believe the Pope is just being true to himself.

I completely agree with you.

I believe that some people never dreamed that we would have a pope who is not European, who is a member of a religious order with its own customs and worldview, a pope who comes from the world of the poor and not from a university or a wealthy diocese, and a pope who became a priest after Vatican II. It was going to happen sooner or later. It happened now. The man has done nothing that is contrary to the faith or morals.

I’m not sure how some people got the authority to judge another person’s humility. Such judgment is reserved for God.

To those who raise questions about his humility we have to ask

1. How often have you fed a poor person?
2. Would you give up your car for the bus?
3. Can you live without a cell phone and cable TV?
4. Do you show love and affection even for people with whom you strongly disagree?
5. How many hours a day do you spend in prayer?

Jorge Bergoglio has done all the above all of his life. Why do we want to change who he is? With the right to life comes the right to l live free of other people’s prejudices.

 

[Indyann]

That’s characteristic of Romance languages. They always speak in the masculine, even when they mean men and women. For example, if you were to speak about your parents, you would say "My fathers are . . . " ( patres mei or parentibus meis).

If you’re speaking about mankind, there is no such word in Latin or its offspring languages. You have to replace with “man” or “humanity” (humani generis or humanitas). Here’s something interesting about Latin and its offspring. “Man” is written in the masculine. “Humanity” is written in the feminine. Both include both genders.

It’s very hard to nail it down to a gender, unless you know that the document wants a specific gender.

In this case, if I’m not mistaken, they wanted males.

In addition to your very informative posts, I found this post by Dr. Ed Peters to be very interesting and informative.

canonlaw.info/a_footfight.htm

"footfight’

 

[JReducation]

In addition to your very informative posts, I found this post by Dr. Ed Peters to be very interesting and informative.

canonlaw.info/a_footfight.htm

"footfight’

You’re right. It is interesting.

I also have to go back to my canon law professor and tell him that I can still apply the method he gave us to analyze laws. My analysis and that of Dr. Peter coincided. The only part that I was not sure of was if “vir” was being used to mean males. I thought it was, but I was not sure. I have not read anything by those who wrote the law in a very long time. I can’t remember who wrote this law. I’m trying to think who was the Prefect for Divine Worship in 1988. These laws are not written by the Holy Father. They’re written by the cardinals. The Holy Father signs off on them.

 

[Sister_Terese]

Not saying there’s anything wrong with what Pope Francis is doing here, but why do people always asume that doing something “new” or “different” is necessarily good? If you like what he’s doing in this particular case then great, but change for the sake of change is not a good thing.

Well, I can tell you that many Catholics today, including me, have gone through 45+ years of constant innovation and quite frankly, are wary of anything “new” or “different”. I can’t say that I blame them to some degree. Our Church has been decimated by liturgical “innovations” since Vatican II. From clown masses to female altar servers to a parade of EEM every Sunday, to dancing girls dressed provocatively. I have experienced all of this and more. That is why I attend the Tridentine Mass because the Church’s sacred traditions are kept intact. I have nothing against the Novus Ordo if that is what you like. But I prefer the centuries old immemorial Mass of all time. There is nothing as beautiful–as Bishop Sheen once noted.

Please do not read into this that I am criticizing Pope Francis–that is not what I am saying. I think it is a beautiful gesture. I’m just saying that the reason why some people are a little suspicious is because they’ve had to endure so many meaningless innovations over the years.

 

[JustaServant]

Well, I can tell you that many Catholics today, including me, have gone through 45+ years of constant innovation and quite frankly, are wary of anything “new” or “different”. I can’t say that I blame them to some degree. Our Church has been decimated by liturgical “innovations” since Vatican II. From clown masses to female altar servers to a parade of EEM every Sunday, to dancing girls dressed provocatively. I have experienced all of this and more. That is why I attend the Tridentine Mass because the Church’s sacred traditions are kept intact. I have nothing against the Novus Ordo if that is what you like. But I prefer the centuries old immemorial Mass of all time. There is nothing as beautiful–as Bishop Sheen once noted.

Please do not read into this that I am criticizing Pope Francis–that is not what I am saying. I think it is a beautiful gesture. I’m just saying that the reason why some people are a little suspicious is because they’ve had to endure so many meaningless innovations over the years.

I grow so sick of this kind of post.
I have never, repeat, NEVER seen a “clown mass”, “dancing girls”, or a “parade” of EEMs EVER, in my entire life.
You say “I have nothing against the Novus Ordo if that is what you like.”
Only a Protestant would say something like that. Catholic worship is dictated by God, not by “what we like”.
I suggest you stop painting an innacurate picture of the OF

 

[OraLabora]

I grow so sick of this kind of post.
I have never, repeat, NEVER seen a “clown mass”, “dancing girls”, or a “parade” of EEMs EVER, in my entire life.
You say “I have nothing against the Novus Ordo if that is what you like.”
Only a Protestant would say something like that. Catholic worship is dictated by God, not by “what we like”.
I suggest you stop painting an innacurate picture of the OF

Indeed. I attend an OF Mass at a Benedictine monastery. The propers and ordinary are sung in Gregorian chant (Latin & Greek) and the rest, including the readings and proclamation of the gospel, are in French plainchant. The liturgy is very carefully done with processions, incense on Sundays and feasts, moments of deep silence after readings, the homily and communion, in fact exactly the way the Mass is supposed to be, regardless of form, and how the OF Mass is celebrated in many places that I have been to regardless of whether chant is used or not. I also used to regularly attend a very quiet and reverent 7 am weekday Mass when my job was near St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal. Also OF, just a very quiet recited Mass attended by a handful of regulars, given by a faithful priest day in and day out.

With Masses like those within driving distance I feel very blessed.

I too have not yet seen a “clown Mass” or provocatively dressed dancing girls…

 

[JustaServant]

Indeed. I attend an OF Mass at a Benedictine monastery. The propers and ordinary are sung in Gregorian chant (Latin & Greek) and the rest, including the readings and proclamation of the gospel, are in French plainchant. The liturgy is very carefully done with processions, incense on Sundays and feasts, moments of deep silence after readings, the homily and communion, in fact exactly the way the Mass is supposed to be, regardless of form, and how the OF Mass is celebrated in many places that I have been to regardless of whether chant is used or not. I also used to regularly attend a very quiet and reverent 7 am weekday Mass when my job was near St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal. Also OF, just a very quiet recited Mass attended by a handful of regulars, given by a faithful priest day in and day out.

With Masses like those within driving distance I feel very blessed.

I too have not yet seen a “clown Mass” or provocatively dressed dancing girls…

I have heard of a few documented cases, in California back in the 70s. NEVER heard of “dancing girls”.
Trads keep bringing this up as if it epidemic all over the Church. It isn’t, and it’s scandalizing to say it does. It feeds into anti-Catholicism.

 

[Sister_Terese]

I grow so sick of this kind of post.
I have never, repeat, NEVER seen a “clown mass”, “dancing girls”, or a “parade” of EEMs EVER, in my entire life.
You say “I have nothing against the Novus Ordo if that is what you like.”
Only a Protestant would say something like that. Catholic worship is dictated by God, not by “what we like”.
I suggest you stop painting an innacurate picture of the OF

I will be praying for you.

 

[JustaServant]

I will be praying for you.

Nice quick edit to your original response.

Please document for us all these instances that nobody else I know, outside of trads, seem to have expericed.
Identify the parishes that have done this please.

 

[Sirach2]

Well, I can tell you that many Catholics today, including me, have gone through 45+ years of constant innovation and quite frankly, are wary of anything “new” or “different”. I can’t say that I blame them to some degree. Our Church has been decimated by liturgical “innovations” since Vatican II. From clown masses to female altar servers to a parade of EEM every Sunday, to dancing girls dressed provocatively. I have experienced all of this and more.

Tell me, if you will, where in your Detroit area have there been clown “mass(es)” plural? As a religious, how many parishes were you at liberty to attend a liturgy and witness these allegations?
A few isolated cases in California were proselytized all over Youtube and repeated as if this is a norm everywhere else.

Secondly, why are you so against a lawful practice of female altar servers? I would expect that you, in your teaching profession, would be an exemplary example of upholding all that the Church permits.

Third, you make it sound like dancing girls were also the norm. I find your public comments unwarranted and not befitting one of your profession.

Please do not read into this that I am criticizing Pope Francis–that is not what I am saying. I think it is a beautiful gesture. I’m just saying that the reason why some people are a little suspicious is because they’ve had to endure so many meaningless innovations over the years.

Are you insinuating that this is another “innovation?” Ma’am, I’m very sorry to see this witness from you, from whom I would expect much more support of the Pope and the Church.

 

[JustaServant]

Tell me, if you will, where in Detroit area have there been clown “mass(es)” plural? A few isolated cases in California that were proselytized all over youtube and repeated as if this is a norm everywhere else.

Secondly, why are you so against a lawful practice of female altar servers? I would expect that you, in your teaching profession, would be an exemplary example of upholding all that the Church permits.

Third, you make it sound like dancing girls were also the norm. I find your public comments unwarranted and not befitting one of your profession.

Are you insinuating that this is another “innovation?” Ma’am, I’m very sorry to see this witness from you, from whom I would expect much more support of the Pope and the Church.

Yeah, I’m waiting for those documented cases of scantily clad "dancing girls’.

 

[Sister_Terese]

I have heard of a few documented cases, in California back in the 70s. NEVER heard of “dancing girls”.
Trads keep bringing this up as if it epidemic all over the Church. It isn’t, and it’s scandalizing to say it does. It feeds into anti-Catholicism.

I attended a Mass at a parish in south Florida. There were dancing women dressed in costumes so thin you could see through some of them. This is called “liturgical dance”. They came down the aisle holding some kind of purple-ish see-through clothes and swirled around the altar brushing their purple clothes across it. I can assure you that liturgical dance was very popular in the 70’s and 80’s I also taught in a school where the principal had the children dance around the altar too. Do you think I would make this stuff up? In another school I taught in in the midwest, a priest brought stuffed animals and put them on the altar instead of the candles and crucifix. He turned them around so that the children could see the faces. He then had his face made up as a clown and wore a red clown costume. He then invited the children to come up during the Consecration and hold the stuffed animals of their choice while the Blessed Sacrament was on the altar. I attended a Mass in Florida where the priest dressed up as E.T. I attended another Mass in Indiana where the priest had his dog in the sanctuary during Mass and shook it’s paw during the sign of peace. He then sent his dog to shake paws with the rest of the congregation.

I have to tell you that this is the fourth or fifth time I have been attacked on this forum for voicing my opinion. Each time has been in the name of “Catholicism”. I am not going to do this anymore. I am going to leave this forum because if this is what you think Catholicism is all about, then I don’t belong here. I will be keeping you in my prayers.

 

[jesuspsr]

Hey now wait a sec. here. I live in CA. and I’ve never seen this in any of the churches Ive gone to. Tho I do have to say. After mass I help feed the homeless right behind the church were I get to see people going to spanish mass. Now, I can’t believe how the parents let there young doughters go dressed the way they do Tank tops, skimpy short short, shorts.

Any how, I love our new pope and kudos to him for doing this.

God bless

 

[JustaServant]

I attended a Mass at a parish in south Florida. There were dancing women dressed in costumes so thin you could see through some of them. This is called “liturgical dance”. They came down the aisle holding some kind of purple-ish see-through clothes and swirled around the altar brushing their purple clothes across it. I can assure you that liturgical dance was very popular in the 70’s and 80’s I also taught in a school where the principal had the children dance around the altar too. Do you think I would make this stuff up? In another school I taught in in the midwest, a priest brought stuffed animals and put them on the altar instead of the candles and crucifix. He turned them around so that the children could see the faces. He then had his face made up as a clown and wore a red clown costume. He then invited the children to come up during the Consecration and hold the stuffed animals of their choice while the Blessed Sacrament was on the altar. I attended a Mass in Florida where the priest dressed up as E.T. I attended another Mass in Indiana where the priest had his dog in the sanctuary during Mass and shook it’s paw during the sign of peace. He then sent his dog to shake paws with the rest of the congregation.

I have to tell you that this is the fourth or fifth time I have been attacked on this forum for voicing my opinion. Each time has been in the name of “Catholicism”. I am not going to do this anymore. I am going to leave this forum because if this is what you think Catholicism is all about, then I don’t belong here. I will be keeping you in my prayers.

That wasn’t what I asked for.
I asked for documentation, which includes the names of the Parishes you claim these things happened in. I would also like the name of the priests you claim were part of this so we can investigate your charges.
Until you come up with that, I remain skeptical of your story.

If you wanna go cry to Fisheaters, feel free. But YOU are the one who made the claims, and YOU are the one backing off when asked for documentation.

 

[JustaServant]

Hey now wait a sec. here. I live in CA. and I’ve never seen this in any of the churches Ive gone to. Tho I do have to say. After mass I help feed the homeless right behind the church were I get to see people going to spanish mass. Now, I can’t believe how the parents let there young doughters go dressed the way they do Tank tops, skimpy short short, shorts.

Any how, I love our new pope and kudos to him for doing this.

God bless

Must be our eastern prejudice against California.

 

[Sirach2]

That wasn’t what I asked for.
I asked for documentation, which includes the names of the Parishes you claim these things happened in. I would also like the name of the priests you claim were part of this so we can investigate your charges.
Until you come up with that, I remain skeptical of your story.

If you wanna go cry to Fisheaters, feel free. But YOU are the one who made the claims, and YOU are the one backing off when asked for documentation.

She named exactly four incidences. Not a rampant sampling of the universal, world-wide church, is it? BTW, JustaServant, it is against forum rules to identify parishes, specifically. Being that she witnessed a “children’s” liturgy where there is more liberty to bring the liturgy to the level of these young hearts, it is a different story than she led us to believe - that it happens consistently in adult liturgies. I don’t know what the rubrics allow for children’s liturgies, so I cannot say whether or not these were wrongful.

I have been to many parishes in Florida, too, and witnessed the utmost orthodoxy in their liturgies. She has colored the entire church by some chance occurances, as some folks have done with the Youtube mania.

 

[Spudbynight]

I have heard of a few documented cases, in California back in the 70s. NEVER heard of “dancing girls”.
Trads keep bringing this up as if it epidemic all over the Church. It isn’t, and it’s scandalizing to say it does. It feeds into anti-Catholicism.

This was at Liverpool Cathedral earlier this year…

youtube.com/watch?v=DyMYt75toLg

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Sister Teresa I do believe you may have seen these specific things. However it does sound like isolated instances - one mass with purple cloth, one mass with stuffed animals. Also as you say anything like that was happening 30 years ago or so. Just think about clothing fashions in the 70s and you’ll agree that things in general were pretty crazy then.

I’m a little surprised that you didn’t speak to the priest after those masses. You may have been able to help him see the problem with what he was doing. It can happen that in our quest to do one good thing - engage the children at mass - we run into problems without fully intending them.

Nevertheless that was a while ago and that sort of thing genuinely isn’t happening (and happened rarely even then). Certainly if the EF helps in your spiritual development you should assist there. It does no one any good though to bring up past problems each time you say you attend the EF. those things happened years ago and are history now. Do not scandalize people now by discussing them as if they were current events.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I attended a Mass at a parish in south Florida. There were dancing women dressed in costumes so thin you could see through some of them. This is called “liturgical dance”. They came down the aisle holding some kind of purple-ish see-through clothes and swirled around the altar brushing their purple clothes across it. I can assure you that liturgical dance was very popular in the 70’s and 80’s I also taught in a school where the principal had the children dance around the altar too. Do you think I would make this stuff up?

I don’t, because I have seen it often.

I have to tell you that this is the fourth or fifth time I have been attacked on this forum for voicing my opinion. Each time has been in the name of “Catholicism”. I am not going to do this anymore. I am going to leave this forum because if this is what you think Catholicism is all about, then I don’t belong here. I will be keeping you in my prayers.

Sister, I’m really sorry this has happened to you, and I sincerely hope you don’t leave.

Also, whoever talked about not identifying parishes and clergy is correct. It is forbidden by forum rules. Lots of other CAF users can also verify they have seen “liturgical dancing” during Mass, and fairly recently (certainly within the last 5 years). The latter resembles what you see in corny Hollywood sword-and-sandal (Bible) epics, where the fetching women are wearing gauzy chiffon and dancing suggestively to some pagan God (and/or the Emperor ).

 

[Mrs_Sally]

She named exactly four incidences. Not a rampant sampling of the universal, world-wide church, is it? BTW, JustaServant, it is against forum rules to identify parishes, specifically. Being that she witnessed a “children’s” liturgy where there is more liberty to bring the liturgy to the level of these young hearts, it is a different story than she led us to believe - that it happens consistently in adult liturgies. I don’t know what the rubrics allow for children’s liturgies, so I cannot say whether or not these were wrongful.

I have been to many parishes in Florida, too, and witnessed the utmost orthodoxy in their liturgies. She has colored the entire church by some chance occurances, as some folks have done with the Youtube mania.

Thank you. I would hate to see a specific parish or priest called out publicly over what might easily have been a one time deal. On the other hand, I am surprised that a handful of events from 30 years ago is still causing this much strife and duress.