C
Cor_Cordis
Guest
Ah, so those things are just silly trifles eh?
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C
Cor_Cordis
Guest
So the “ultra conservatives” can either lump it or leave it - eh?
And that’s “unifying” in your book?
C
Cor_Cordis
Guest
So, should all the progressive-liberal Catholics just shut up over all of their objections to the faith, as well?
B
Brendan_64
Guest
I live in a normal everyday Catholic parish, and teach in a normal everyday Catholic school. No division or impending schism where I am.
As for any schism, anyone who puts themselves in schism with Rome is guilty of grave sin. Surely that ought to be enough to stop people from going down that road. Is the issue of washing of women’s feet really worth all that?
B
Brendan_64
Guest
Yes.
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Cor_Cordis
Guest
I’m glad you live in such a idyllic world. More power to you.
So all of the liberal progressive Catholics should toe the line or get out, right?
C
Cor_Cordis
Guest
V
vames
Guest
C
Cor_Cordis
Guest
hmmmm. Nothing about women in there.
B
Brendan_64
Guest
It makes no difference. It’s not about ‘sides’, the Church is the Church, the Pope is the Pope. The Church, through the Pope, is guided by the Holy Spirit, we just place our trust in the Church and follow the lead of our Pope. Our own opinions on various matters are not relevant, our role is to trust, follow and serve.Whoa!
I like the cut of your brave jib!
C
Cor_Cordis
Guest
Again, I truly like the cut of your jib!
But, what about all of those truly horrible popes throughout history?
Would you have been absolutely loyal to everything these guys did:
-Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
-Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
-Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who “sold” the Papacy
-Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante’s Divine Comedy
-Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
-Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
-Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors’ reserves on a single ceremony[4]
-Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
B
Brendan_64
Guest
I’m not talking about blogs or websites, I’m talking about the people you meet in parishes. You know, the women who do the flower arranging, the EMHCs, the people in the pews, the guy who locks up the church, the people who organise food-banks and outreach to the poor, the ladies who organise the tea and coffee at parish social events, the people who stay and pray the rosary after Mass, the lady who runs around doing all the ecumenical work with neighbouring Christian Churches, the person who does the rotas for the Readers and EMHCs etc. Those sort of people, ordinary Catholics, most of whom have never read an online blog in their lives. Those are the people who really count.
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Cor_Cordis
Guest
Yeah, and how many of those people differ with the moral doctrines of the Church on: Birth control, masturbation, divorce, same-sex attraction, abortion, or euthanasia?
V
vames
Guest
Luigi Daniele’s logic was that if the foot-washing ceremonies are not an exact reenactment, then the Pope is free to choose whom he wants to have their feet washed. The poor referenced in Catholic Encyclopedia were simply lay people - they weren’t sub-deacons, let alone priests or bishops. Women are lay people too.
C
Cor_Cordis
Guest
Oh and, women ordination and papal infallibility?
C
Cor_Cordis
Guest
But does it first require a formal declaration per canon law or a papal directive or whatever like the Seventeenth Synod commanded?
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Cor_Cordis
Guest
If the pope is free to chose whomever by that decree, then why did the Seventeenth Synod of Toledo specify “twelve sub-deacons after his Mass and of thirteen poor men after his dinner”?
And why does The “Caeremoniale episcoporum” specifically direct that the bishop is to wash the feet either of thirteen poor men or of thirteen of his canons.
Why the specifics?
M
Moore11
Guest
Outside of CAF? You mean outside of the largest website for Catholics thousands of Catholics talk about Catholic things you have not heard about this from other Catholics…
I would say that CAF is a pretty good indicator of what Catholics are talking about!!!
Unless you are part of some think tank with thousands of Catholics in it…
M
Mrs_Sally
Guest
Probably not the people Brendan talked about.
There are definately plenty of people confused about those topics, or who don’t know what the Church actually teaches, but only what they read in the secular media. They may be misled by some things the Pope does, but they weren’t clear even when Benedict was the pope. What they need is someone to reach out in charity and patience and teach them.
The people who are aggitating for women’s ordination or sex same marriage or contraception, have been at that for awhile. The Pope washing a young woman’s feet may indeed give them “ammunition” for a brief while, but his words and his other actions aren’t going to support them. He doesn’t support their positions. He is focused on something else entirely.
If his actions make any of those people (even Brendan’s “good” Catholic) look up for a moment and reconsider their own thoughts and actions, he will have the opportunity to teach them more. We pray that the hostile have their hearts softened, the confused come to understanding, and the good become better Christians - saints even!
M
Mrs_Sally
Guest
Those men were wretched sinners. Their actions were not right, but none of them taught against the faith and morals of the church! And none of their sinful acts had anything to do with liturgy or the live of the Church, but with the temporal, political power that the Popes at the time had.Again, I truly like the cut of your jib!
But, what about all of those truly horrible popes throughout history?
Would you have been absolutely loyal to everything these guys did:
-Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
-Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
-Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who “sold” the Papacy
-Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante’s Divine Comedy
-Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
-Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
-Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors’ reserves on a single ceremony[4]
-Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
The ordinary person in their ordinary parish, even at the time that those men were popes, went about their lives participating in the sacraments and hopefully gaining the grace to reach heaven without being affected by the actions ofthose popes.
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