Pope Francis: turn to the Bible to engage in spiritual combat [CWN]

[Duane1966]

Pope Francis in his statement says it contains the Word of God. It must be needed. That is what I am saying.

So the earliest converts to Christianity that were in India, that the Apostle Thomas preached to, they were illiterate and with no bible. Are you saying they had no hope for salvation?

Is the bible the means for how Christ intended the transmission of the faith, or did Christ establish the Church for the transmission of the faith?

If not a single word of the New Testament had ever been written down, would we still have the Church?

 

[commenter]

Is this really a “non-Catholic” matter?

Oh, you mean non Catholics already heard about the Bible anyway? I had heard rumors of that, but I had assumed they were apocryphal. Are there literal dragons, too?


Seriously, it is hard to find another forum in CAF that this would **not **fit into. Traditional? Catholic News? Liturgy and Sacraments? Sacred Scripture? maybe others

This is another example of a Pope Francis theme that is largely ignored by the media. They don’t believe in dogmas about the supernatural. They either believe there is no supernatural, or that each person must define its realities for themselves, with no doctrines. Pope Francis has not only performed exorcisms but has spoken about the reality of the devil; not as a personal opinion but as a universal reality that can influence individuals and societies. No pope since, perhaps, Leo XIII has emphasized the need to confront the devil so much.

 

[Peter_J]

I agree and stated that back there in the thread "Why if you do, don’t you beleive the RCC is the one true Church started by Christ?

In pst 241 Rinnie stated the Bible is not needed and in 268 PJM agreed that her statement was a great post!
**
I don’t believe the CC has ever taught that**.

I don’t have any objection to this post, but I thought the last sentence merited bold facing.

The thing is, in light of that why worry about it?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Pope Francis in his statement says it contains the Word of God. It must be needed. That is what I am saying.

We have had the Church w/o the bible(OT only for first 10 or so years after Christ ascension). But we have never had a bible w/o the Church.

In ACTS 2 it says:

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

So I think people who are saying you don’t need a bible simply mean we have it memorized and can preach it orally if necessary. It by no means diminishes the importance of the Word of God as that is what ultimately saves.

Kudos to the Pontiff for encouraging reading of the Word. We all should be doing it no matter what branch of Christendom you belong to.

 

[Wannano]

I don’t have any objection to this post, but I thought the last sentence merited bold facing.

The thing is, in light of that why worry about it?

I am not worried about it at all. The Bible is needed, period. That was my only point! Seems like I agree with Pope more than some others! But I am not worried about that either!

Edit: I guess one can ask why the Church produced the Bible if it was not needed?.

 

[Duane1966]

I am not worried about it at all. The Bible is needed, period. That was my only point! Seems like I agree with Pope more than some others! But I am not worried about that either!

Ask yourself this: If somehow every copy in existence of the bible were destroyed, and none could be written for centuries, would Christianity survive?

 

[Wannano]

Ask yourself this: If somehow every copy in existence of the bible were destroyed, and none could be written for centuries, would Christianity survive?

Thanks Duane, that is a question more in line with why I was saying it is needed.

 

[Duane1966]

Thanks Duane, that is a question more in line with why I was saying it is needed.

So you don’t believe Christianity would survive without the bible?

I think you misunderstand me. The Church was growing before a single word of the New Testament was ever written. Paul wrote his letters to established churches. There is no reason to believe that the Church Christ founded and said He would be with into perpetuity would not survive without the bible.

That old axiom is true: The Church can survive without the bible, but the bible cannot survive without the Church.

 

[Wannano]

So you don’t believe Christianity would survive without the bible?

It seems like you have a need to put words in my mouth. If I wanted to say the conclusions you insist on jumping to, I would just say it.

 

[Duane1966]

It seems like you have a need to put words in my mouth. If I wanted to say the conclusions you insist on jumping to, I would just say it.

Then please, answer my question. Would Christianity survive without the bible?

 

[Wannano]

Then please, answer my question. Would Christianity survive without the bible?

Well I have not thought about that before, but who knows for sure? It barely survived during the times when Bible reading was withheld from the laity in times past so if we were without it completely …probably not.

 

[Duane1966]

Well I have not thought about that before, but who knows for sure? It barely survived during the times when Bible reading was withheld from the laity in times past so if we were without it completely …probably not.

Really? It was my understanding that just about all of Europe was Christian before the invention of the printing press.

Again, Christianity was growing before one word of the New Testament was ever written down. And it flourished, when statistics show that only 1% of the population could read. There is no reason to believe that She would not have survived without the bible.

The part that I have highlighted, I am sure you know is a false statement. The Church only discouraged the reading by the laity of unauthorized translations of the bible. Authorized bibles were never withheld. I can post quotes from several reputable Protestant historians who will tell you the same thing.

Don’t you find it funny that as literacy has grown, Christianity has waned?

 

[Peter_J]

I am not worried about it at all.

Cool. Maybe you can help me work on some of my other separated brothers/sisters who post on CAF.

 

[Wannano]

Cool. Maybe you can help me work on some of my other separated brothers/sisters who post on CAF.

Just identify them and I will track them down npatrol:

 

[Wannano]

Really? It was my understanding that just about all of Europe was Christian before the invention of the printing press.

Again, Christianity was growing before one word of the New Testament was ever written down. And it flourished, when statistics show that only 1% of the population could read. There is no reason to believe that She would not have survived without the bible.

The part that I have highlighted, I am sure you know is a false statement. The Church only discouraged the reading by the laity of unauthorized translations of the bible. Authorized bibles were never withheld. I can post quotes from several reputable Protestant historians who will tell you the same thing.

Don’t you find it funny that as literacy has grown, Christianity has waned?

Duane, I could enter into so much arguement within the context of your post. But I am choosing not to. It has all been covered before.

I am sure your viewpoint is that true Christianity is only comprised within Roman Catholicism and therefore your question rightly gives you pause…

 

[Duane1966]

I am sure your viewpoint is that true Christianity is only comprised within Roman Catholicism and therefore your question rightly gives you pause…

I believe the fulness of truth is found in Catholicism. BUT I have not said, nor do I believe that one must be Catholic to be a true Christian. That judgment is up to God.

You, on the other hand, have in essence said that Catholics are not Christians.

 

[Wannano]

I believe the fulness of truth is found in Catholicism. BUT I have not said, nor do I believe that one must be Catholic to be a true Christian. That judgment is up to God.

You, on the other hand, have in essence said that Catholics are not Christians.

I have no idea how you arrive at that. I know many Catholics who are Christians. I have numerous friends who are Catholic and I must say I have never had one of them twist my words and put words in my mouth like you try to do. I wonder where it’s is all coming from and why. Forgive me Duane if something I have said has struck a raw nerve for you.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Oh, you mean non Catholics already heard about the Bible anyway? I had heard rumors of that, but I had assumed they were apocryphal. Are there literal dragons, too?


Seriously, it is hard to find another forum in CAF that this would **not **fit into. Traditional? Catholic News? Liturgy and Sacraments? Sacred Scripture? maybe others

This is another example of a Pope Francis theme that is largely ignored by the media. They don’t believe in dogmas about the supernatural. They either believe there is no supernatural, or that each person must define its realities for themselves, with no doctrines. Pope Francis has not only performed exorcisms but has spoken about the reality of the devil; not as a personal opinion but as a universal reality that can influence individuals and societies. No pope since, perhaps, Leo XIII has emphasized the need to confront the devil so much.

I think it would have fit to shove it into traditional since everyone else puts something there that has nothing to do with traditional Catholicism

 

[Duane1966]

I have no idea how you arrive at that. I know many Catholics who are Christians. I have numerous friends who are Catholic and I must say I have never had one of them twist my words and put words in my mouth like you try to do. I wonder where it’s is all coming from and why. Forgive me Duane if something I have said has struck a raw nerve for you.

You have not struck a nerve with me. I do not think you thought out something you stated. Let’s recap:

1.) I asked you if Christianity could survive without the bible.
2.) You stated in post #31:

It barely survived during the times when Bible reading was withheld from the laity in times past so if we were without it completely …probably not.

3.) Now, l know of no historian with any pre-Reformation knowledge who does not admit that Europe was almost totally Catholic, in the time period that you mention. In point of fact, some historians state that Catholicism was at it’s zenith. All this, with what statistics show of about a one percent literacy rate.

4.) So, the only way for what you stated in point #2 to be true, would be if you felt Catholics were not Christians.

 

[Wannano]

you have not struck a nerve with me. I do not think you thought out something you stated. Let’s recap:

1.) I asked you if Christianity could survive without the bible.
2.) You stated in post #31:

3.) Now, l know of no historian with any pre-Reformation knowledge who does not admit that Europe was almost totally Catholic, in the time period that you mention. In point of fact, some historians state that Catholicism was at it’s zenith. All this, with what statistics show of about a one percent literacy rate.

4.) So, the only way for what you stated in point #2 to be true, would be if you felt Catholics were not Christians.

It is almost humorous that you feel the need to point out that I stated something I may not have thought through when I started my response with “I have never thought of this before so who knows for sure.” I guess you missed that part.

Interesting that you have changed the parameters of the spiritual condition of Europe from almost totally Christian to almost totally Catholic. If there is no difference why change the wording to prove your claim? Oh, but in your game of cat and mouse you triumphantly proclaim I now have said Catholics are not Christians! Yep, that is the only way for my point in #2 to have any validity! We’ll in your mind it’s just that simple but in my mind it is not for while I believe all Christians may be Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist etc etc, not all Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists etc etc are truly Christians.

No doubt about it, Catholicism was at it’s zenith when the literacy rate was low, that is a historical fact. To agree with you on that does not say that I think Catholics are not Christians.