Pope Francis wants Church to be poor, and for the poor

[Elizabeth502]

Again, there seems to be a disconnect, or a denial, or both, between what you allege you mean and what you do in fact say, as here:

But I do think that protecting the poor and needy will be the key issue Pope Francis’s papacy.

You have no evidence for that outside of his inaugural homily and your own subjective preference. He has not said, or suggested, he will be a leader with “the” (singular) “key issue” (singular). He has indicated, in his own words and in his own actions, many key issues, plural, and that probably Third World poverty will be included as “a” key issue.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Again, there seems to be a disconnect, or a denial, or both, between what you allege you mean and what you do in fact say, as here:

You have no evidence for that outside of his inaugural homily and your own subjective preference. He has not said, or suggested, he will be a leader with “the” (singular) “key issue” (singular). He has indicated, in his own words and in his own actions, many key issues, plural, and that probably Third World poverty will be included as “a” key issue.

Come on. The semantics is dizzying. If there is a ‘key’ issue, doesn’t it signify other issues?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Come on. The semantics is dizzying. If there is a ‘key’ issue, doesn’t it signify other issues?

He didn’t say “a” key issue, sir. He said one: the key issue. Look at his posts, and his insistence on indicating exclusivity.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

He didn’t say “a” key issue, sir. He said one: the key issue. Look at his posts, and his insistence on indicating exclusivity.

‘A’ or ‘the’, it signifies other issues. Then we have to understand that grammatical errors, or them being pointed out, is not true context and does not place one side superior over the other. The Pope has also spoke on mercy and love.

There are people who read through and I think some ‘debates’ give scandal to Catholics. Reading through a few of these type threads suggests that Catholics can’t agree on anything, including the Pope, or what he says. We should give him time and listen to all he has to share with us.

 

[Brendan_64]

He didn’t say “a” key issue, sir. He said one: the key issue. Look at his posts, and his insistence on indicating exclusivity.

So you are arguing that is one issue is regarded as the key issue, that means there are no other issues?

Dear oh dear. OK let me make my position crystal clear - I do not think that poverty will be the only issue that will characterise Pope Francis’s papacy, but I do think that it will be the key issue (although there will be other important issues).

Is that clear enough for you?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Please, I would like to ask all those who have positions of responsibility in economic, political and social life, and all men and women of goodwill: let us be “protectors” of creation, protectors of God’s plan inscribed in nature, protectors of one another and of the environment. Let us not allow omens of destruction and death to accompany the advance of this world! But to be “protectors”, we also have to keep watch over ourselves! Let us not forget that hatred, envy and pride defile our lives! Being protectors, then, also means keeping watch over our emotions, over our hearts, because they are the seat of good and evil intentions: intentions that build up and tear down! We must not be afraid of goodness or even tenderness!
Here I would add one more thing: caring, protecting, demands goodness, it calls for a certain tenderness. In the Gospels, Saint Joseph appears as a strong and courageous man, a working man, yet in his heart we see great tenderness, which is not the virtue of the weak but rather a sign of strength of spirit and a capacity for concern, for compassion, for genuine openness to others, for love. We must not be afraid of goodness, of tenderness!

-Pope Francis

 

[fix]

It sounds like certain CA members expect Pope Francis, the Cardinals, and Bishops to don brown robes and sandals and take to the streets for the gathering of alms. Vatican treasures, basilicas, and cathedrals in First World lands will be sold and all proceeds distributed to Third World poor. Under our newly impoverished Church, we will be forced to gather in hovels or grottoes for the celebration of Holy Mass. Finally, we will have a “poor Church” bathed in humility and free of decadence and corruption…

True. How long before the libs turn on him?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I do not think that poverty will be the only issue that will characterise Pope Francis’s papacy, but I do think that it will be the key issue (although there will be other important issues).

Is that clear enough for you?

It was always clear, which is what I said repeatedly, but until this post you refused to admit it, despite my direct questions. You just have. Thank you.

And I respectfully disagree that we know one way or the other whether poverty will be “the key issue,” given that he has talked about much else, in addition to poverty, and recently, as a Cardinal.

So just as the poster petronus overconfidently predicted (twice) that Cardinal Tagle, not Cardinal Bergoglio, would “be the next pope, without a doubt,” we’ll just have to see whether Brendan 64’s prophecy will also come to pass.

(Be careful of predictions.)

Stay tuned…

 

[BackToTheRock]

This debate reminds me of arguing with my brother over who was my mother’s “favorite” child.

Why do we have to limit Pope Francis to confirm our own views?

No matter which direction Pope Francis moves, I believe the Holy Spirit chose him, and I’m 100% on board.

I find it hard to believe that I’ve followed this thread for 24 pages but having done so it’s my considered opinion (or at least as considered as possible before downing my first cup of coffee) that Scipio’s is the salient post. Is the Pope deeply concerned about poverty? Of course. Is he deeply concerned about issues of faithfulness to Catholic doctrine? Of course. Might his primary focus become an issue that no one has yet considered? Of course (look at the gospels and note the significant exchanges that took place when Jesus was “interrupted” on his journey by something or someone that needed to be addressed). *“No matter which direction Pope Francis moves, I believe the Holy Spirit chose him, and I’m 100% on board.” *Amen

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Fighting poverty, both material and spiritual, building peace and constructing bridges: these, as it were, are the reference points for a journey that I want to invite each of the countries here represented to take up. But it is a difficult journey, if we do not learn to grow in love for this world of ours. Here too, it helps me to think of the name of Francis, who teaches us profound respect for the whole of creation and the protection of our environment, which all too often, instead of using for the good, we exploit greedily, to one another’s detriment.

-Pope Francis

 

[Mrs_Sally]

James Chater 2

14What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: 16And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

18But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Ephesians 2

1And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins, 2Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief: 3In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: 4But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) 6And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. 7That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9Not of works, that no man may glory. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

The Church is all of us, not just the Vatican. I see our Holy Father (like those before him) calling us to true faith which is manifested in our good works.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

If you liquidate current Church assets for a one-time payout to the impoverished, you barely dent global poverty and you leave nothing for the future poor of the world. What does that accomplish? I do not see Pope Francis unilaterally disposing of Vatican assets.

The mission of the Church is not to operate strip malls, sports centers, apartment buildings, and luxury resorts devoid of any religious function. These are things which distract the Church from its mission. Solving the problem of material poverty is also not the role of the Church. It doesn’t need $15 billion worth of secular property and stock options to minister to the poor. Not to mention that, as of last year, these properties are now a tax liability. To suggest that the Church would go broke and be unable to provide services to the poor without those things just isn’t true. It still receives over $1 billion in tax receipts from the citizens of Italy as part of a mandatory “church tax” and who knows how much in proceeds from tourism. Besides many, if not most, of the efforts of Catholic charitable organizations are funded by governments and private donations.

 

[pete_29]

The mission of the Church is not to operate strip malls, sports centers, apartment buildings, and luxury resorts devoid of any religious function. These are things which distract the Church from its mission. Solving the problem of material poverty is also not the role of the Church. It doesn’t need $15 billion worth of secular property and stock options to minister to the poor. Not to mention that, as of last year, these properties are now a tax liability. To suggest that the Church would go broke and be unable to provide services to the poor without those things just isn’t true. It still receives over $1 billion in tax receipts from the citizens of Italy as part of a mandatory “church tax” and who knows how much in proceeds from tourism. Besides many, if not most, of the efforts of Catholic charitable organizations are funded by governments and private donations.

I was under the impression that the Church was solely funded by private donations.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

I was under the impression that the Church was solely funded by private donations.

Church donations are referred to as “Peter’s Pence” in Vatican financial disclosures. These Church collections comprise only 27% of the Vatican’s revenue.

 

[stellina]

People make such an issue over the cardinals having drivers. I would have too until I spent a week in Rome last spring. I would never drive in that city. True story - I was actually helped across the street to St. John Lateran by an old man with a cane - he’d hold his cane up and people would stop (or at least slow down). And all the people zipping around on scooters? Beyond this we’ve all seen the cardinals on tv. Do any of us really think the local population would be safer by having them drive cars or scooters? No thank you. Let them keep their drivers and get on with the real business of being the Church.

I’ve spent a lot of time in Rome (I still have relatives there) and boy, do I agree! If you’re a foreigner, you have to be certifiably insane to even entertain the thought of driving in that city, or any of the others in Italy. I’ve been a passenger many times with an Italian at the wheel and it’s quite an experience. They’re absolutely fearless & they have the reflexes of wildcats.

I’ve said it before & I’ll say it again: some people are getting really looney about our new Holy Father & reading way too much into everything he says or does.

 

[Brendan_64]

It seems that Pope Francis has chosen not to live in the Papal apartments in the Apostolic Palace, but will instead live in the Vatican guesthouse; the first Pope for 110 years not to live in the Apostolic Palace. His accommodation will consist of a bedroom, sitting room and bathroom with a shower.

It seems Pope Francis means to carry on, as far as is possible, with the humble life-style he lived when he was a cardinal in Buenos Aires.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/03/26/pope-francis-to-live-in-guesthouse-rather-than-papal-apartments/

 

[onmyknees]

I have been to Rome too and I had a hard time getting a cross the streets because the cars and scooters do not stop for you or anybody else. You have to just start going out into the sidewalk to make them stop! So scary! My husband and son were braver than I and they would just walk out there, yelling at me to come with!

Loved all the rest of Rome!!! Beautiful Catholic churches practically everywhere you went!! We stayed in a really small room with an outdoor space and it was wonderful! I would not mind living there at all. Hope to get there again some day.

 

[Brendan_64]

I have been to Rome too and I had a hard time getting a cross the streets because the cars and scooters do not stop for you or anybody else.

Of course they won’t, they have right of way. I can’t think of any city I’ve been in where cars and scooters would stop to give way to pedestrians. Do cars in the USA actually stop to give way to pedestrians? I’ve been to Rome and, as a pedestrian I didn’t find it all that bad, just pick you moment and dash to a point of safety.

You think Rome is bad? I’ve driven in Naples, Rome is very mild compared to Naples. You just have to get into mentality of, ‘See a gap and go for it,’ when you’re driving. You might get the odd little knock and scrape on your car, but that’s about it really.

Anyway pope Francis is from Buenos Aires. I’d imagine it’s no better there either so he’d be well used to it.

 

[Brendan_64]

Loved all the rest of Rome!!! Beautiful Catholic churches practically everywhere you went!! We stayed in a really small room with an outdoor space and it was wonderful! I would not mind living there at all. Hope to get there again some day.

I got married in Rome, a wonderful city. The whole place is like an open air museum.

We had a ‘low-key’ wedding (as we had no money back then). We took a taxi from our hotel to the Church (St Patrick’s Church on Via Boncompagni) on our wedding day, and there were cigarette butts on the floor of the taxi and cigarette ash on the seat, as the driver weaved through the morning traffic beeped his horn constantly. It was wonderful, it just added to what was a beautiful day. We were married by a wonderful tall, red-cheeked, Irish priest called father Tom Hunt. Just our immediate close family there at the wedding and we all went out for a simple meal in a restaurant afterwards. An amazing day. Then to top it all off, Father Tom got us tickets to the Papal audience (John Paul II) a couple of days later.

Sorry to reminisce like this, and go off topic, but I find it hard not to think of that whenever anyone talks about the city of Rome.

 

[onmyknees]

Of course they won’t, they have right of way. I can’t think of any city I’ve been in where cars and scooters would stop to give way to pedestrians. Do cars in the USA actually stop to give way to pedestrians? I’ve been to Rome and, as a pedestrian I didn’t find it all that bad, just pick you moment and dash to a point of safety.

You think Rome is bad? I’ve driven in Naples, Rome is very mild compared to Naples. You just have to get into mentality of, ‘See a gap and go for it,’ when you’re driving. You might get the odd little knock and scrape on your car, but that’s about it really.

Anyway pope Francis is from Buenos Aires. I’d imagine it’s no better there either so he’d be well used to it.

Well, here in the U.S. people are a lot more polite I guess. In the cities here we have cross walk lights so when it is green everyone crosses and the cars wait. Imagine that!