Pope Francis wants Church to be poor, and for the poor

  • Thread starter Thread starter liturgyluver
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Not at all. All I’m saying is that there is no need for the Cardinals to be driven around in chauffeur driven cars. There is nothing whatsoever disdainful in that.

The disdain comes through because you seem to think their is something wrong if they are…
Or do you think that chauffeur driven cars ought to be given as a reward for a person’s devotion to God? As a ‘perk’ for service given?
Yes, with qualification. A chauffer driven car is an appropriate part of the “package” for someone of a certain rank in the Church, spending his days (usually long after other clergy have retired) in constant service to the Church. It’s not for service given (past tense). It’s for service being given (present tense).
 
I am a Republican conservative Catholic in the Burkean tradition. I have no love for soulless capitalism (aka corporate capitalism). I have no problem at all with anything that the Holy Father is saying. What he is saying is the teaching of the Church, after all. I am listening with complete respect. I wonder if the left can say the same?
:amen:
 
Not at all. All I’m saying is that there is no need for the Cardinals to be driven around in chauffeur driven cars. There is nothing whatsoever disdainful in that.



:confused: What has this got to do with it?

Or do you think that chauffeur driven cars ought to be given as a reward for a person’s devotion to God? As a ‘perk’ for service given?
Maybe you should sell what you have and give to the poor before you talk about others compassion. 🤷
 
I agree, especially seeing the children living in slums and eating garbage. I don’t think the Pope is thinking about selling all the art in the Vatican though, but I do believe that some of our Bishops and Cardinals could be living a more simple life, and that the Church could do more in eliminating poverty there but I do hope that He will not a “social reformer” or anti-capitalist. Many of these countries have their governments to blame for such squalor. The answer is not “redistribution of wealth” but the wealthier people and politicians there giving more to help these people, and if Bishops and priests lived a simpler life so they could set an example for them.

And for the poster that wondered about how we’d feel if Obama would be flying coach to meet various dignitaries, given how much it costs to run Air Force One, I think that would be an excellent idea.
 
Have you ever heard of Pope Benedict or Pope John Paul II shunning someone who was not dressed up?

To judge all Catholics by what is discussed most on CAF is to demonstrate that you don’t know how internet forums work.
I remember reading something once on CAF about some kind of dress code instituted in or around the Vatican or St Peter’s Square.

I do think a difference with CAF compared to other private internet forum businesses is because of the forum’s name, if they don’t know any better, people can perhaps have the impression it is Church affiliated or sponsored.
 
Holy week is drawing near , and the faithful have been tossed about by these epic winds of change , so the last thing Pope Francis is trying to do is politicize these momentous , and solemn times.

Our new Holy Father is coming at us with pure gospel truth. He is preaching our religion to us. Jesus Christ wasn’t speaking metaphorically regarding the " poor " , and the " least " among us , he was speaking in the literal sense , just as he was when he gave us the Eucharist. He is present , truly present , in both the poor and the Eucharist. We encounter His Holy Person in each instance.

It has always saddened me that Joe Osteen sells people a distorted version of Jesus Christ when he presents Him minus His Passion…Christ without the Holy Cross. I think Pope Francis is reminding his flock about the core truths of our religion , namely the crucified reality of our Redeemer , and the poor in whom He dwells. Pure gospel preaching mean’t to edify and inspire , not political rhetoric at all. Inspiration from the Holy Spirit. I find it moving.

I can’t wait for Holy Week. Pope Francis will lead us all on a great journey of praise and worship. We should all be ablaze right now. Our Church is renewing Herself right before our eyes.
 
It seems to be self moderation, and not a ‘cry’ from the people; even though the article does speak about ‘made nervous, by the public example of the new Pope.’

Self-reform has started’ as Vatican officials catch cabs
Vatican officials, made nervous by the public example of the new pope, have already begun to moderate their lifestyle, taking taxis around Rome rather than using the large fleet of luxury sedans, Italian newspapers have reported, according to The Sydney Morning Herald.
“The pope, who is used to taking the minibus with his Cardinal brethren, standing in line for breakfast at the self-service restaurant in the Domus Sancta Martha (the Vatican hotel) and settling his hotel bill in person, could look out of the window and see that he is surrounded by people who are not getting the drift and not following suit,” reported La Stampa. “Self reform has started.”
 
I remember reading something once on CAF about some kind of dress code instituted in or around the Vatican or St Peter’s Square.
The dress code applies to all the Churches in Rome, although it is probably more enforced at the Sistine Chapel and other Vatican chapels. It has existed through many popes and unlikely to change now. I seriously doubt Pope Francis is going to get involved in chaning the dress code for the Churces of Rome. A suit and tie is not part of the requirement.
 
I was peeved reading this “news” story also. What about Pope Benedict’s encyclical Caritas in Veritate?

Also on the environment and caring for creation, Pope Benedict spoke out many times about this. The Vatican enacted many “green” projects during his pontificate.

The description of Pope Benedict as being “rigid” is getting on my nerves. By numerous accounts, he was sweet and shy.

Pope Francis is advancing the work begun by his predecessors, not coming up with a new Catholicism.
Here’s a quote from Pope Benedict XVI, which I believe helps to make your point:

“The external deserts in the world are growing, because the internal deserts have become so vast. Therefore the earth’s treasures no longer serve to build God’s garden for all to live in, but they have been made to serve the powers of exploitation and destruction. The Church as a whole and all her Pastors, like Christ, must set out to lead people out of the desert, towards the place of life, towards friendship with the Son of God, towards the One who gives us life, and life in abundance.”

~~ Pope Benedict XVI

MASS FOR THE INAUGURATION
OF THE PONTIFICATE OF POPE BENEDICT XVI

HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI

St. Peter’s Square
Sunday, 24 April 2005

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20050424_inizio-pontificato_en.html



How quickly we forget, eh?



:highprayer:
 
Exactly. We have a charismatic (personality, not movement…I don’t believe) pope after a more reserved one (who suffered a bit in comparison with his predecessor , I think, because he has a quieter personality).

I love all three:)
I would add Pope John Paul I to the list …
the smiling pope …
🙂 🙂 🙂
 
The dress code applies to all the Churches in Rome, although it is probably more enforced at the Sistine Chapel and other Vatican chapels. It has existed through many popes and unlikely to change now. I seriously doubt Pope Francis is going to get involved in chaning the dress code for the Churces of Rome. A suit and tie is not part of the requirement.
That dress code is in effect in every “tourist” church in Italy (that I’ve visited). And a good many of the others.
 
That dress code is in effect in every “tourist” church in Italy (that I’ve visited). And a good many of the others.
Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament in Hanceville, Alabama, has a dress code. 😉
Perpetual Adoration over a 24-hour period is observed by rotating nuns at the shrine. A dress code is enforced in the shrine, banning sexually-inciting clothing, as well as mini-skirts, shorts, tank tops, or sleeveless shirts for pilgrims who come and visit.
Seems like they frown on some t-shirts, and jeans have to be in good condition, if I remember correctly. Been a few years since I went there.
 
I remember reading something once on CAF about some kind of dress code instituted in or around the Vatican or St Peter’s Square.
This is true. They check before going into St. Peter’s basilica. I was there last spring and saw a couple of women turned away for being dressed way too revealingly. It’s by no means oppresive; people just can’t go in dressed disrespectfully.
Here’s one of the signs:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
I agree, especially seeing the children living in slums and eating garbage. I don’t think the Pope is thinking about selling all the art in the Vatican though, but I do believe that some of our Bishops and Cardinals could be living a more simple life, and that the Church could do more in eliminating poverty there but I do hope that He will not a “social reformer” or anti-capitalist.
The whole issue of selling the Vatican art comes up pretty frequently. John Allen has an interesting column in the NCR today. Here’s the first of his points and I think he puts the issue to rest pretty handily (highlights are mine):
1. The myth and reality of Vatican wealth
Given the magnificence of St. Peter’s Basilica and the Apostolic Palace, the Vatican may seem a counterintuitive place to pursue the dream of a poor church. Some may expect the new pope to hold a fire sale in St. Peter’s Square – in a metaphorical sense following his namesake, Francis of Assisi, by stripping the place naked before starting anew.
Such a program is, in truth, easier to applaud than to accomplish.
To begin with, the legendary wealth of the Vatican is to some extent more myth than reality. The Vatican has an annual operating budget of under $300 million, while Harvard University, arguably the Vatican of elite secular opinion, has a budget of $3.7 billion, meaning it’s 10 times greater. The Vatican’s “patrimony,” what other institutions would call an endowment, is around $1 billion. In this case, Harvard’s ahead by a robust factor of 30, with an endowment of $30.7 billion.
The Vatican bank controls assets estimated at more than $6 billion, which is nobody’s idea of chump change, but most of that isn’t the Vatican’s money. It belongs to religious orders, dioceses, movements and other Catholic organizations, and is managed by the Institute for the Works of Religion to facilitate moving it around the world.
Of course, these figures don’t include the value of masterpieces of Western art housed in the Vatican, such as Michelangelo’s “Pietà.” The Vatican considers itself custodians of these items, not their owners, and it’s a matter of Vatican law that they can never be sold or borrowed against. As a result, they have no practical value and are listed on the Vatican books at a value of 1 euro each.
Aside from selling off the papal limo, which Pope Francis doesn’t seem inclined to use, and baubles such as the crimson-lined mozetta, which he doesn’t seem inclined to wear, it’s hard to see immediately what he could jettison that would dramatically alter perceptions.
Moreover, Francis was elected in part on a platform of overhauling the Vatican’s bureaucracy in the direction of greater transparency, accountability and efficiency. Assuming he assembles a team of reformers, he’ll need to make sure they have the tools to do the job. At least initially, that might require more money for Vatican operations rather than less.
On the other hand, Paul VI famously decided to retire the papal tiara, or crown, and asked that proceeds from its sale go to the poor. Perhaps Francis can do the same, renouncing a few items associated with the Vatican’s regal past as a further step toward modesty.
In any event, it might help matters if the outside world could see the relatively Spartan settings in which most Vatican officials actually live and work as opposed to the resplendent backdrops used to stage public rituals. Simply by lifting some of the veils of secrecy, Francis might move a long way toward recalibrating impressions.
 
The whole issue of selling the Vatican art comes up pretty frequently. John Allen has an interesting column in the NCR today. Here’s the first of his points and I think he puts the issue to rest pretty handily (highlights are mine):
I think that is a strange assessment considering the fact that the Vatican owns vast amounts of commercial and residential properties in Italy, most of which don’t serve any Church function, valued at between $9-14 billion in addition to 15% of all stock in the Italian market valued at $1.6 billion. The Vatican has a TON of assets so its wealth isn’t really a myth even though it may be comparatively cash-poor. These assets are probably what Pope Francis would target if he does such a thing at all.
 
I think that is a strange assessment considering the fact that the Vatican owns vast amounts of commercial and residential properties in Italy, most of which don’t serve any Church function, valued at between $9-14 billion in addition to 15% of all stock in the Italian market valued at $1.6 billion. The Vatican has a TON of assets so its wealth isn’t really a myth even though it may be comparatively cash-poor. These assets are probably what Pope Francis would target if he does such a thing at all.
A few quick responses. First, John Allen is a very insightful and knowledgeable writer on issues in the Vatican and has been for years. He’s respected by a wide variety of people because of his professional integrity and is considered to be a straight shooter in his reporting. In other words, due to his well established and respected track record I’m willing to trust his reporting.

Second, even if your numbers are accurate, they don’t approach the number of assets accumulated by private institutions such as Harvard. Yet no one, including their alumni, is publically calling for them to liquidate those assets in order to alleviate sufferring in the world. The singular scrutinizing of the Catholic Church raises some obvious questions about the veracity of the concern.
 
A few quick responses. First, John Allen is a very insightful and knowledgeable writer on issues in the Vatican and has been for years. He’s respected by a wide variety of people because of his professional integrity and is considered to be a straight shooter in his reporting. In other words, due to his well established and respected track record I’m willing to trust his reporting.

Second, even if your numbers are accurate, they don’t approach the number of assets accumulated by private institutions such as Harvard. Yet no one, including their alumni, is publically calling for them to liquidate those assets in order to alleviate sufferring in the world. The singular scrutinizing of the Catholic Church raises some obvious questions about the veracity of the concern.
No one is calling for the Church to liquidate all it’s assets. Some here are speculating on what the Holy Father’s words might mean. Until further explanation, it’s speculation. The sad thing is, for me, is to see that whatever the Holy Father says is going to be immediately weighed through ‘political’ lenses. I don’t believe the Popes are political. They preach the Gospel and if it fits a political view partisans take it and proclaim righteousness for their secular affiliation. No political party is perfect is their views. There is some truth in all political parties. Because each have some truth, the next political step is to weigh truths and wrongs against each other; and that seems to be for the sake of other political views.

As Christians, we should recognize the truths spoken to us as Gospel. The Gospel message is not so legalistic that we need to interpret the intent. Because of the legalistic dissections of the Gospel, the Church leaders have had to explain to a depth that a new Christian has to really concentrate to understand the simple message, if they can understand it at all. It’s not about what we can do for ourselves in this life, it’s about what we will receive eternally for what we do for others in this life; from their conception until natural death, with none excluded.

The Gospel is not prudential. It only becomes prudential to fit it to a political view. The Pope leads, and we are to follow.

Harvard is a secular institution that has no obligation to set a moral example.
 
I wonder if some people want the Church to sell any wealth it has so that It will become bankrupt and have less power in the world? Not saying that it would, but maybe they think it might destroy the Church?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top