Pope Francis wants greater roles for women in the Church.

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1AugustSon7 said:
Now that is an absolutely beautiful image: the little child Mary dancing before her God, Maker, Redeemer and Saviour. This is worthy of the finest artist; though they, I think - if humble - would not feel worthy of it.

I am reminded of …

Proverbs 8:30-31 (D-R):
I [Wisdom] was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

Playing in the world: and my delights were to be with the children of men.

This sort of imagery - oddly radical in a certain sense (certainly for the Puritans at least, but then again everything scandalizes them) - is perhaps my favorite sort in Christianity and Catholicism: A little girl dancing for joy for and about her God, and amusing herself at the children of men: like a kid in a candy store rejoicing at the sheer abundance of possible joys, delights and goodness about her; or daddy’s little girl bubbling-up from the simple joy and happy security of and in being loved.

Just beautiful.
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I’ll touch the subject once more and then let it rest and ask the moderators to forgive my zeal for Our Lady. 🙂

It is beautiful and wonderful. Many have written about that verse in Proverbs and about Psalm 45 in this context.

with all kinds of wealth.
The princess is decked in her chamber with gold-woven robes;
in many-colored robes she is led to the king,
with her virgin companions, her escort, in her train.
With joy and gladness they are led along
as they enter the palace of the king.
Instead of your fathers shall be your sons;
you will make them princes in all the earth.
I will cause your name to be celebrated in all generations;
therefore the peoples will praise you for ever and ever.
(Psalm 45:13-17)

I did not mention that the Eastern Tradition holds that Mary entered the Temple with an escort of virgins.

There are many icons of the Entrance of the Theotokos. You can google for the icons and they are very interesting. Mary is in this icon twice, once being greeted by Zecharia and again sitting on the mercy seat.

http://spiritualpaintings.com/images/06.12.15.98.jpg

-Tim-
 
Elizabeth502 said:
Again, that is discipleship, not apostleship. All women and all men are called to discipleship.
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Well, like the Apostles she was sent by Jesus, she didn’t follow him into her village.

She brought the village to Him.
 
CB_Catholic said:
Your Eastern tradition, while appreciated, is not relevant to this. Ordination is not the determining factor to those who object. Sex is.
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I am very much interested in Easter Spirituality and theology but after repeated attempts at engaging with Eastern Catholics and Orthodox both here on CAF and out in the world I’ve all but given up.

As soon as I mention that I’m Roman Catholic they roll their eyes and conversation ends. It is very tiring to be corrected constantly for not using the exact terminology. I hear “This is why you are wrong” from Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox more than I do from Southern Baptists. With all due respect to MorEphram, who I am sure is a very nice person, the condescending attitude for me has more than worn thin.

Eastern spirituality and theology is fascinating to me. It is a shame that there can’t be a more adult dialog.

-Tim-
 
Memaw said:
Please do. I have heard more than one priest on EWTN say that it wasn’t said by St. Francis. God Bless, Memaw
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Here are the Saint’s own words:

Quote:The Earlier Rule:
Chapter XVII Preachers
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  1. All the brothers, however, should preach by their deeds…
  2. Therefore, in the love with is God, I beg all my brothers - those who preach, pray, work, whether cleric or lay - to strive to humble themselves in all things.*
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Quote: The Later Rule
Chapter IX Preachers
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  1. I also admonish and exhort these brothers that, in their preaching, their words be well chosen and chaste… in a discourse that is brief, because it was in few words that the Lord preached while on earth.*
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Quote: The Admonitions of Saint Francis:
XXI: The Frivolous and Talkative Religious
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  1. Blessed is the servant who, when he speaks , does not reveal everything about himself in the hope of receiving a reward, and who is not quick to speak, but wisely weighs what he should say and how he should reply. 2. Woe to that religious who does not keep in his heart the good things the Lord reveals to him and who does not manifest to others by his actions, but rather seeks to make such good things known by his words. 3. He thereby receives his reward while those who listen to him carry away but little fruit.*
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What do you think - is it accurate to paraphrase these by saying that St. Francis said “Preach the Gospel - use words ONLY if necessary”?

*Quotes from Regis Armstrong OFM Cap, Ignatius Brady OFM, Francis and Clare: the Complete Works, Paulist Press, 1982
 
Elizabeth502 said:
Again, that is discipleship, not apostleship. All women and all men are called to discipleship.
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Just for clarity’s sake Elizabeth, what post specifically are you addressing that claimed Mary was ordained? It’s an assertion that I am not able to find here. Help please?
 
Memaw said:
Please do. I have heard more than one priest on EWTN say that it wasn’t said by St. Francis. God Bless, Memaw
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Br. JR here on CAF also says St. Francis didn’t say that. While I love the quote – and it is how we should live – I’ll take his word for it.
 
clem456 said:
Just for clarity’s sake Elizabeth, what post specifically are you addressing that claimed Mary was ordained? It’s an assertion that I am not able to find here. Help please?
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I don’t know if you’re trying to be sarcastic, but I think you know well that there was no such “post addressing that Mary was ordained?” Rather, another poster once again introduced an off-topic reply to discussions of women’s roles beyond the call, opportunity, and welcome to discipleship that existed from Jesus’ ministry to today.

And every time someone continues to bring up examples of commitment to Jesus and spiritual leadership as equivalent to the ministerial priesthood (or the “right” to participate in that, or some kind of “need” for a path into that), I’m going to call that poster on it.

Ancient Mediterranean: women proclaiming the Gospel in word and deed,following the Master, evangelizing and witnessing in various roles and to various degrees.
2013: women proclaiming the Gospel in word and deed, following the Master, evangelizing and witnessing in various roles and to various degrees.

**That **^ is the fullness of participation in the life of the Church. And it will be true for true for the vast majority of men as well. Few men are called to the priesthood, but they also participate fully in the life of the Church if, as lay men, they

proclaim the Gospel in word and deed, following the Master, evangelizing and witnessing in various roles and to various degrees, and becoming a Saint.

No man calls himself. No man is capable of overriding a community’s decision that he is or is not fit for the priesthood. His sex does not, in itself, qualify him. Nor does the sex of a woman qualify her for admission to any order or congregation of religious women, active or contemplative. She is called by God also, and approved only by a community.

No man and no woman has any intrinsic “right” to any specific role in the Catholic Church including any clerical role. The seeking of “position” does not intersect with

proclaiming the Gospel in word and deed, following the Master, evangelizing and witnessing in various roles and to various degrees, and becoming a Saint

because Jesus had no use for those who sought after “position.”
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I don’t know if you’re trying to be sarcastic, but I think you know well that there was no such “post addressing that Mary was ordained?” Rather, another poster once again introduced an off-topic reply to discussions of women’s roles beyond the call, opportunity, and welcome to discipleship that existed from Jesus’ ministry to today.

And every time someone continues to bring up examples of commitment to Jesus and spiritual leadership as equivalent to the ministerial priesthood (or the “right” to participate in that, or some kind of “need” for a path into that), I’m going to call that poster on it.

Ancient Mediterranean: women proclaiming the Gospel in word and deed,following the Master, evangelizing and witnessing in various roles and to various degrees.
2013: women proclaiming the Gospel in word and deed, following the Master, evangelizing and witnessing in various roles and to various degrees.

**That **^ is the fullness of participation in the life of the Church. And it will be true for true for the vast majority of men as well. Few men are called to the priesthood, but they also participate fully in the life of the Church if, as lay men, they

proclaim the Gospel in word and deed, following the Master, evangelizing and witnessing in various roles and to various degrees, and becoming a Saint.

No man calls himself. No man is capable of overriding a community’s decision that he is or is not fit for the priesthood. His sex does not, in itself, qualify him. Nor does the sex of a woman qualify her for admission to any order or congregation of religious women, active or contemplative. She is called by God also, and approved only by a community.

No man and no woman has any intrinsic “right” to any specific role in the Catholic Church including any clerical role. The seeking of “position” does not intersect with

proclaiming the Gospel in word and deed, following the Master, evangelizing and witnessing in various roles and to various degrees, and becoming a Saint

because Jesus had no use for those who sought after “position.”
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The community does not determine whether a man is fit or unfit for the priesthood. In the diocese that decision is the bishops alone. In a religious community that falls to the superior.

-Tim-
 
Elizabeth502 said:
And every time someone continues to bring up examples of commitment to Jesus and spiritual leadership as equivalent to the ministerial priesthood (or the “right” to participate in that, or some kind of “need” for a path into that), I’m going to call that poster on it.
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For the sake of charitable and clear dialogue, which post exactly are you calling out, which equates discipleship to the ministerial priesthood?
 
Memaw said:
Only a priest or deacon are allowed to give a Homily, or even part of one. If that continues to happen one should report it to the Bishop, God Bless, Memaw
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I don’t think anyone there even realizes that things aren’t right. If the priest forgets his lines, they laugh. If the priest cracks a joke, they laugh. That’s not even my parish but I attend out of convenience. It wouldn’t bother me if the bishop closed the parish but I’m not going to be the one to call them out on it. I’ve done that for too long, I put a lot of money on promoting Latin and the old Mass, and it’s only getting worse to the point is that I feel maybe I’m to blame for it.
 
triumphguy said:
Here are the Saint’s own words:

Quote:The Earlier Rule:
Quote: The Later Rule
Quote: The Admonitions of Saint Francis:

What do you think - is it accurate to paraphrase these by saying that St. Francis said “Preach the Gospel - use words ONLY if necessary”?

*Quotes from Regis Armstrong OFM Cap, Ignatius Brady OFM, Francis and Clare: the Complete Works, Paulist Press, 1982
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When you put something in quotation marks, people think it is an actual quote. It isn’t. So many things that Francis did explicitly say are ignored today. That “quote” gets misused by people. If someone proposes more emphasis on doctrine in a parish or school, someone else will invariably throw that paraphrase in as if it’s a quote. One time a person opposed to doctrine added, “what’s more important, dogma or love?” using that “quote” from St Francis as if he said that.
Ironically, Pope Francis will talk for an hour, and the secular media will pull 1 minute worth out of context, spin the translation, and ignore what he said and emphasized in the other 59 minutes.
 
ProVobis said:
I don’t think anyone there even realizes that things aren’t right. If the priest forgets his lines, they laugh. If the priest cracks a joke, they laugh. That’s not even my parish but I attend out of convenience. It wouldn’t bother me if the bishop closed the parish but I’m not going to be the one to call them out on it. I’ve done that for too long, I put a lot of money on promoting Latin and the old Mass, and it’s only getting worse to the point is that I feel maybe I’m to blame for it.
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My last church they sang happy birthday after communion which on the surface seems harmless but if you put in context of the sacrificial offering and not allowing people to properly thank the Lord after communion is bad we also never said any of the creeds which bothered me and we always started mass at like 10 after 9:00AM and no one prepared themselves for mass either everyone was allowed to talk before mass. My last priest used to make fun of the Bishop that is when I had enough.
 
KP3243 said:
My last church they sang happy birthday after communion …
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I’ve heard happy birthday also, and I usually wonder if its some liturgical committee which plans these “small” events. But if we go far enough back, we’d probably see that Vatican II appointed committees which would appoint subcommittees and so forth so it all basically becomes “allowed” under the “spirit” of Vatican II. At least it seems that can justify it that way.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I’m not sure what Pope Francis is thinking in the more ecclesiastical view, but on the local level, overwhelmingly there are far too many women in leadership roles already, and far too few men – anywhere except in places like ICKSP parishes, etc.

In point of fact (also), local parishes, have, i.m.o., too much “bureaucracy” on their own. Committees, Schemittees. This “council,” this “committee,” this “ministry.” (I love how someone’s random pet project is allowed to attach the word “ministry” to itself) And invariably, women are directing those, as well.

The most traditional parishes are about one thing: bringing those parish members closer to Our Lord. (What a concept. :D) That effort is led by the pastor and any associated priests, is carried out with frequent Masses, devotions, Confession, spiritual direction provided by the ordained, and music which supports all of that and is under the jurisdiction of the pastor, not anyone with separate or overriding power.

When the lines of leadership are clearly drawn like that, and when you have men visibly in those leadership roles, you tend to get well-attended Masses, with approximately even numbers of both sexes. (You don’t get fewer women; you do get more men.) To my knowledge, women are still only about half of the human race. 😉
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Yes, we are “only” half of the human race, or we are all of half of the human race! No other member’s posts in this thread sound purely dismissive of women to the benefit of men, for no clear reason. Are there really too many women involved in the Catholic Church? Are there just too many women?
 
commenter said:
When you put something in quotation marks, people think it is an actual quote. It isn’t. So many things that Francis did explicitly say are ignored today. That “quote” gets misused by people. If someone proposes more emphasis on doctrine in a parish or school, someone else will invariably throw that paraphrase in as if it’s a quote. One time a person opposed to doctrine added, “what’s more important, dogma or love?” using that “quote” from St Francis as if he said that.
Ironically, Pope Francis will talk for an hour, and the secular media will pull 1 minute worth out of context, spin the translation, and ignore what he said and emphasized in the other 59 minutes.
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St. Francis himself said a lot of words. He even talked to Creation ,so I doubt he would tell us not to sing God’s praises, or talk about them. God Bless, memaw
 
Novila said:
Yes, we are “only” half of the human race, or we are all of half of the human race! No other member’s posts in this thread sound purely dismissive of women to the benefit of men, for no clear reason. Are there really too many women involved in the Catholic Church? Are there just too many women?
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In the U.S. the ratio is 97% (men to women). Over 65 it’s 75% and below 15 years it’s 104%.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_sex_ratio
 
commenter said:
When you put something in quotation marks, people think it is an actual quote. It isn’t. So many things that Francis did explicitly say are ignored today. That “quote” gets misused by people. If someone proposes more emphasis on doctrine in a parish or school, someone else will invariably throw that paraphrase in as if it’s a quote. One time a person opposed to doctrine added, “what’s more important, dogma or love?” using that “quote” from St Francis as if he said that.
Ironically, Pope Francis will talk for an hour, and the secular media will pull 1 minute worth out of context, spin the translation, and ignore what he said and emphasized in the other 59 minutes.
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What I quoted were in fact the actual written words of St. Francis.
 
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