Pope Francis wants greater roles for women in the Church.

[livingwordunity]

I understand your argument, but the reality is that the office of the papacy has grown beyond the Holy See. While I would not expect the pope to perfectly reflect the diversity of the Church, I would like to see the electorate more reflective of this diversity in recognition of the realities of his office.

If you mean having women cardinals, the problem (besides that I doubt it can be possible) is that there are too many people who will claim to only want female cardinals but who won’t be satisfied with anything less than so-called “women’s ordination” which the Pope has no authority to do. The Pope only has the authority he has because of Jesus. We aren’t his boss, Jesus is. Therefore, our Pope can’t do anything that contradicts what Jesus has done without undermining and nullifying his own Papal authority in the process. Besides that, being Catholic means believing that the Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from errors such as that.

 

[CrossBro]

I don’t believe that God “calls” laypeople to be sacristans, altar servers, readers, acolytes, lectors, EMsHC, etc. I believe God calls all laypeople to serve His Church (consecrated religious being a special case) and most of us choose how to do so.

You still haven’t articulated a single reason for permanently instituting males as “permanent” lectors and acolytes. I have listed some grave potential downfalls. I think those most serious and devoted to serving God’s Church through a liturgical ministry would be the very last ones concerned about being permanently instituted anyway. Their focus would be to serve, not to gain a title.

There was a fellow in my parish who was an adult altar server and reader. He did adequately in both. He was absolutely obsessed about becoming an instituted lector and acolyte. His big argument (the only one he had) is that he would be able to licitly help with purifying the sacred vessels. He was fanatical about it. While he was technically correct, that alone is no reason to permanently institute anyone. I’m not sure what finally happened to him but he was never instituted to anything. I’m not entirely sure that he was ever re-commissioned for that matter.

I don’t mean to judge you but based on what you have written, I suspect that you are a man that very much wants to be permanently instituted as a lector and acolyte and that you feel a real need to defend your desire.

There is this misconception that Vatican II when it encouraged the people to get involved it meant helping out at the mass when what the Church really meant was to help poor.

God calls people to be lectors, and altar servers, and extraordinary ministers ? Wow, imagine having to spend twenty minutes on a Sunday in Church ! Now we can forget about the corporal works of mercy because we have gone far and above in heroic fashion just by basically attending Church on Sunday.

Forget that tomorrow 3300 babies are going to be killed by abortion, no need to have your life threatened, your liberty threatened, get spit on, or beat up outside a clinic so long as God calls us to help the priest wash his hands in Church on Sunday morning.

Wake up people !

 

[TimothyH]

I don’t believe that God “calls” laypeople to be sacristans, altar servers, readers, acolytes, lectors, EMsHC, etc. I believe God calls all laypeople to serve His Church (consecrated religious being a special case) and most of us choose how to do so.

You still haven’t articulated a single reason for permanently instituting males as “permanent” lectors and acolytes. I have listed some grave potential downfalls. I think those most serious and devoted to serving God’s Church through a liturgical ministry would be the very last ones concerned about being permanently instituted anyway. Their focus would be to serve, not to gain a title.

There was a fellow in my parish who was an adult altar server and reader. He did adequately in both. He was absolutely obsessed about becoming an instituted lector and acolyte. His big argument (the only one he had) is that he would be able to licitly help with purifying the sacred vessels. He was fanatical about it. While he was technically correct, that alone is no reason to permanently institute anyone. I’m not sure what finally happened to him but he was never instituted to anything. I’m not entirely sure that he was ever re-commissioned for that matter.

I don’t mean to judge you but based on what you have written, I suspect that you are a man that very much wants to be permanently instituted as a lector and acolyte and that you feel a real need to defend your desire.

I’m sorry you suspect that of me. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I am a sacristan, altar server and reader and EMHC. I am a committed adorer and hourly coordinator for perpetual adoration. I also lead Bible study in my home. Of these, only Bible study have I sought on my own. I have been invited or asked to do everything else.

You mention having focus on serving. I thought that I might have been called to the diaconate at one time. The word deacon means servant. Maybe I will be a deacon some day but that day is not now. If I can best serve the Church by sitting in the pew then that is what I will do. I am sorry you think that I desire titles but am sure that you would not think this if you knew me in person.

The only reason I can articulate why anyone should do anything has already been articulated by Saint Paul in http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5265190. I hope you will read it. God has given everyone gifts and everyone is called by God to use those gifts for his glory. We shouldn’t get in God’s way.

-Tim-

 

[CatholicHockey7]

If you mean having women cardinals, the problem (besides that I doubt it can be possible) is that there are too many people who will claim to only want female cardinals but who won’t be satisfied with anything less than so-called “women’s ordination” which the Pope has no authority to do. The Pope only has the authority he has because of Jesus. We aren’t his boss, Jesus is. Therefore, our Pope can’t do anything that contradicts what Jesus has done without undermining and nullifying his own Papal authority in the process. Besides that, being Catholic means believing that the Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from errors such as that.

I certainly agree with your view. We are not the “boss.” However, as Christ said, "whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life — a ransom for many.” So while we do not have the power to order the pope around, he has responsibilities as our leader to serve us.

That cannot, as you said, contradict what Jesus has done and I would never ask for anything like that. I would only put forth an idea that in my limited knowledge of sacred Tradition and Scripture could work and leave it to those who know better to determine if it is a) in line with infallibly defined teaching, and b) in the best interest of the universal church.

Let’s say it could be done. This would be the limits of my view:

Take nuns in leadership positions within their order and “ordain” them (for lack of a better word) to serve as female cardinals. Maybe we come up with different labels for them, but they are empowered to serve as members of the College of Cardinals and any position a Cardinal would hold that does not require tasks explicitly reserved to priests (i.e. hearing confessions). They must be of age to vote in conclave to be eligible for this position, and there should not be more than 20 of these positions unless we suddenly and drastically increase the number of Cardinals we currently have. Then maybe we increase “female cardinals” too, but not really something I see happening in my lifetime.

I would not advocate for women to be ordained as priests or to be given any powers reserved for the priesthood. I only put forth this idea because I believe there may be a way for women to serve in larger leadership roles within the Church without contradicting Tradition. I could just as easily be wrong. I’m not a scholar, I just read a lot.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Take nuns in leadership positions within their order and “ordain” them (for lack of a better word) to serve as female cardinals. Maybe we come up with different labels for them, but they are empowered to serve as members of the College of Cardinals and any position a Cardinal would hold that does not require tasks explicitly reserved to priests (i.e. hearing confessions). They must be of age to vote in conclave to be eligible for this position, and there should not be more than 20 of these positions unless we suddenly and drastically increase the number of Cardinals we currently have. Then maybe we increase “female cardinals” too, but not really something I see happening in my lifetime.

One of the many problems with this proposal is illustrated by your words below:

I would not advocate for women to be ordained as priests or to be given any powers reserved for the priesthood. I only put forth this idea because I believe there may be a way for women to serve in larger leadership roles within the Church without contradicting Tradition. I could just as easily be wrong. I’m not a scholar, I just read a lot.

It is difficult to lead in an area one does not have experience with. Such sisters (I think you mean) would not be on equal footing with those who have been priests and bishops. What it means to lead a flock and administer sacraments and live the spiritual life of the ministerial priesthood is not the same as leading a religious congregation (for example), or having other leadership positions allowed to women lay and religious in the Church.

Therefore, I am strongly against the idea of female cardinals. I think it is unrealistic for many reasons, not the least of which is voting for a Pope who needs to guide bishops and priests.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

One of the many problems with this proposal is illustrated by your words below:

It is difficult to lead in an area one does not have experience with. Such sisters (I think you mean) would not be on equal footing with those who have been priests and bishops. What it means to lead a flock and administer sacraments and live the spiritual life of the ministerial priesthood is not the same as leading a religious congregation (for example), or having other leadership positions allowed to women lay and religious in the Church.

Therefore, I am strongly against the idea of female cardinals. I think it is unrealistic for many reasons, not the least of which is voting for a Pope who needs to guide bishops and priests.

This may very well be the case. That is why I submit to the authority of the Church and those who have spent far more time studying the faith than I have.

To clarify my point, the only reason I would suggest having women as part of the College of Cardinals is to give women a stronger voice in the decision-making process of the Church.

But for the reasons you’ve mentioned and others, this may not be possible.

 

[livingwordunity]

Let’s say it could be done. This would be the limits of my view:

Take nuns in leadership positions within their order and “ordain” them (for lack of a better word) to serve as female cardinals. Maybe we come up with different labels for them, but they are empowered to serve as members of the College of Cardinals and any position a Cardinal would hold that does not require tasks explicitly reserved to priests (i.e. hearing confessions). They must be of age to vote in conclave to be eligible for this position, and there should not be more than 20 of these positions unless we suddenly and drastically increase the number of Cardinals we currently have. Then maybe we increase “female cardinals” too, but not really something I see happening in my lifetime.

I would not advocate for women to be ordained as priests or to be given any powers reserved for the priesthood. I only put forth this idea because I believe there may be a way for women to serve in larger leadership roles within the Church without contradicting Tradition. I could just as easily be wrong. I’m not a scholar, I just read a lot.

If we could have “female cardinals” the first thing leftists would protest is that the next Pope would still have to be a man and not one of the “female cardinals”. I think whoever first thought up this theological question was probably trying to cleverly bypass ordination and instead go straight for the goal of getting a female Pope. I’m sure that the protests would be much worse than what we are seeing now. The protests might even turn violent.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

If we could have “female cardinals” the first thing leftists would protest about is the fact that the next Pope would still have to be a man and not one of the “female cardinals”. I think whoever first thought up this theological question was probably trying to cleverly bypass ordination and instead go straight for the goal of getting a female Pope.

The problem is that would contradict Church law and violate the office of the pope as the Bishop of the Holy See.

Although any male can be voted as pope, he must be ordained as a bishop before he can assume the papacy. Since the Church has infallibly decreed the sacrament of Holy Orders can only be received by men, this would forever preclude women from the papacy.

 

[livingwordunity]

The problem is that would contradict Church law and violate the office of the pope as the Bishop of the Holy See.

Although any male can be voted as pope, he must be ordained as a bishop before he can assume the papacy. Since the Church has infallibly decreed the sacrament of Holy Orders can only be received by men, this would forever preclude women from the papacy.

The problem is that there are too many Catholics who think that the Catholic Church is a man-made institution and not divine in origin. They think that whatever the Pope decides is just his opinion. And they think that the Catholic Church should work like a democracy and “get with the times”. If this were not the case they would have accepted it when the Pope said that women can’t be ordained. But they never accepted it. If those Catholics are combined with the rest of the secular world that agrees with them there would be a potential for “might makes right” and them attempting to take the papacy by force and installing the first female anti-pope. I think that’s what is behind the “woman cardinal” idea.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

The problem is that there are too many Catholics who think that the Catholic Church is a man-made institution and not divine in origin. They think that whatever the Pope decides is just his opinion. And they think that the Catholic Church should work like a democracy and “get with the times”. If this were not the case they would have accepted it when the Pope said that women can’t be ordained. But they never accepted it. If those Catholics are combined with the rest of the secular world that agrees with them there would be a potential for “might makes right” and them attempting to take the papacy by force and installing the first female anti-pope. I think that’s what is behind the “woman cardinal” idea.

I’ve read Harry Potter. The “might makes right” crowd loses in the end. They run away scared of a little child. He’s not even pure blooded! lol

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think whoever first thought up this theological question was probably trying to cleverly bypass ordination and instead go straight for the goal of getting a female Pope.

You think correctly. That strategy has been explicitly discussed by the radical feminists who number among the National “Catholic” Report set, as well as among the “womenpriests” crowd. I know because I unfortunately am acquainted with one of the latter.

 

[M-Dent]

The problem is that there are too many Catholics who think that the Catholic Church is a man-made institution and not divine in origin. They think that whatever the Pope decides is just his opinion. And they think that the Catholic Church should work like a democracy and “get with the times”. If this were not the case they would have accepted it when the Pope said that women can’t be ordained. But they never accepted it. If those Catholics are combined with the rest of the secular world that agrees with them there would be a potential for “might makes right” and them attempting to take the papacy by force and installing the first female anti-pope. I think that’s what is behind the “woman cardinal” idea.

That is the underlying problem. When/If a document or title for a position is offered you’ll see any ambiguous word/statement used as a weapon.

 

[ProVobis]

To clarify my point, the only reason I would suggest having women as part of the College of Cardinals is to give women a stronger voice in the decision-making process of the Church.

And this will bring the men back to the Church? How?

 

[KP3243]

Again we have to be careful with Modernism. It is a heresy. Women are the most power people in the Church, most in the West have just rebelled against nature and have placed working outside the home over their family. Look at Mary, she is more important than the apostles.

 

[Memaw]

This is a very utilitarian view of people.

Being a reader, lector, sacristan, acolyte, deacon or priest is not about upside but about vocation.

God’s plan for us is our vocation. We fulfill Gods plan for ourselves, and God’s plan for all of creation when we find and fill our vocation. God’s plan is the perfect plan - we just have to find it. If everyone found and filled their vocation then God’s master plan would work out perfectly and the world would be an entirely beautiful place. 1 Corinthians 12 addresses the idea of vocation specifically.

Instead of thinking about upside or downside - risk/reward or cost/benefit - maybe we should be thinking in terms of vocation. God can call someone to be a reader without being a deacon. God can call someone to be an sacristan or an altar server or an acolyte without being a deacon.

Everyone should forget about males and females for a moment and ask themselves what God’s plan is for us here on earth, why he made us and what his plan is for us, and then go after that. The world would be an amazing place if everyone did that.

Mary and Joseph are the perfect examples. They didn’t think about upside or downsise. They knew what God wanted them to do and they did it.

-Tim-

Sometimes we are sooo busy trying to get a “higher position” that we forget we’re here to serve, not to be served. God Bless, Memaw

 

[johnthebaptist2]

I think what the Pope is saying,is that he wants women to help out the Priest of a parish,so to take the load of his shoulder,but as for women as become priest<i don,t think it will ever happen,for the priesthood is for men only,and always will.

 

[triumphguy]

I think what the Pope is saying,is that he wants women to help out the Priest of a parish,so to take the load of his shoulder,but as for women as become priest<i don,t think it will ever happen,for the priesthood is for men only,and always will.

I don’t think the Pope is saying that at all

Pope Francis: Women called to service, not servitude

(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Saturday spoke about “the vocation and the mission” of women on Saturday when addressing participants of a study seminar organized by the Women’s Section of the Pontifical Council for the Laity on the 25th anniversary of Blessed Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem. The letter was the first in papal teaching dedicated entirely to the theme of the woman, and the study seminar in particular discussed the point which says that God entrusts man, the human being, to woman in a special way.

“What does this ‘special entrusting’…of the human being to woman signify? It seems evident to me that my predecessor is referring to maternity,” said Pope Francis.

“Many things can change and have changed in our cultural and social evolution, but the fact remains that it is the woman who conceives, carries in her womb and gives birth to the children of men,” the Pope continued. “And this is not simply a biological matter, but carries a wealth of implications for the woman herself, for her way of being, for her relationships, for the way in which we lend respect to human life and to life in general. Calling a woman to maternity, God entrusted the human being to her in an altogether special manner.”

**The Pope warned that there are two dangers always present when speaking about this topic, calling them “two extreme opposites that destroy woman and her vocation.”

“The first is to reduce maternity to a social role, to a task, albeit noble, but which in fact sets the woman aside with her potential and does not value her fully in the building of community. This is both in the civil sphere and in the ecclesial sphere,” explained the Holy Father. “And, in reaction to this, there is the other danger in the opposite direction, that of promoting a type of emancipation which, in order to occupy spaces taken away from the masculine, abandons the feminine with the precious traits that characterize it**.”

Text from page en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/10/12/pope_francis:_women_called_to_service,_not_servitude/en1-736720
of the Vatican Radio website

Also:

Pope Francis also spoke about the special gifts given to women in the Church.

“ I would like to underline how the woman has a particular sensitivity for the ‘things of God’, above all in helping us to understand the mercy, tenderness and love that God has for us,” he said. “ And it pleases me to think that the Church is not ‘il Chiesa’ ‘the Church’, masculine]: it is ‘la Chiesa’ [feminine]. The Church is a woman! The Church is a mother! And that’s beautiful, eh? We have to think deeply about this.”

The Pope said the document Mulieris Dignitatem arises in this context and offers a profound, organic reflection, with a solid anthropological base, enlightened by Revelation.

“From here, we must restart that work of deepening and of promoting, for which I have already hoped many times. Even in the Church, it is important to ask oneself: what presence does the woman have?” he said.

“I suffer – speaking truthfully! – when I see in the Church or in some ecclesial organizations that the role of service that we all have, and that we must have - but that the role of service of the woman slips into a role of “servidumbre” [Spanish: servitude]. . . But when I see women that do things out of “servitude” and not out of service,” said Pope Francis. “And that it is not understood well what a woman ought to do. Can she be valued more? It is a reality that is close to my heart and for this I wanted to meet … and bless you and your commitment. Thank you, let us move this forward together! May most holy Mary – a great woman, eh? – the Mother of Jesus and of all God’s children, accompany us. Thank you!”

Text from page en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/10/12/pope_francis:_women_called_to_service,_not_servitude/en1-736720of the Vatican Radio website

 

[edwest2]

One of the many problems with this proposal is illustrated by your words below:

It is difficult to lead in an area one does not have experience with. Such sisters (I think you mean) would not be on equal footing with those who have been priests and bishops. What it means to lead a flock and administer sacraments and live the spiritual life of the ministerial priesthood is not the same as leading a religious congregation (for example), or having other leadership positions allowed to women lay and religious in the Church.

Therefore, I am strongly against the idea of female cardinals. I think it is unrealistic for many reasons, not the least of which is voting for a Pope who needs to guide bishops and priests.

Leadership is just code for power. Let’s get the foot in the door and then force it open the rest of the way. If one is a humble servant then one does look for power or leadership.

Only God through His Holy Spirit guides us, which has been twisted by the womenpriests.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

From CatholicHockey7,

“To clarify my point, the only reason I would suggest having women as part of the College of Cardinals is to give women a stronger voice in the decision-making process of the Church.”

The Church is not the Congress or the Senate or the House of Representatives. Just as these institutions have no say in electing a Pope, then your idea makes no sense. The Church operates from the Bible, Tradition and the words and actions of Jesus Christ.

The decisions made by the Church involve the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Period.

Peace,
Ed

 

[triumphguy]

Leadership is just code for power. Let’s get the foot in the door and then force it open the rest of the way. If one is a humble servant then one does look for power or leadership.

Only God through His Holy Spirit guides us, which has been twisted by the womenpriests.

Peace,
Ed

So if men have the leadership does that mean they have the power?