Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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**No, but special attention ought to be given to those afflicted with same sex attraction. **While they ought never be rejected, they ought to be properly catechized and instructed in how they should live in accord with the teachings of our Holy Mother Church. If this doesn’t happen, if this special attention and instruction does not occur, they may be led to believe that same sex attraction is morally permissible, which is an error.
For the record, Boston, I don’t recall your posts making me feel unwelcome.

You say that people with SSA need special attention. I agree. In order to give them this, we need to foster an environment where they feel comfortable to speak out and get help. This is a very delicate matter, because THEY often feel like their gayness determines their identity in some way. I know that it shouldn’t determine their identity, of course. But if we wish to draw them into the Church, we need to find a way to not right off the bat reject them, by refusing them the word they use to self-define.

Sure, we’d probably prefer they didn’t self-define that way, but that’s the way it is. And they’re not dead-set against the Church, far from it. They want to belong, like the rest of us. It’s just that they end up feeling the Church is dead-set against them.
 
Nope, We need to make sure that we don’t lead someone with this temptation to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not. But there are a lot of objective disorders in life. This is but one of them. One that a lot of conservative Catholics seem fixated on for some reason.

But we DO NOT condemn a person because they have a temptation. Nor do we make them unwelcome in the Church and the body of Christ. Do you think someone with SSA reading this thread would feel welcome at CAF? No? Then our tone must change.
We’re not talking about SSA here. Did you miss the 24/7 gay marriage propaganda campaign? Did you know the moment gay so-called marriage is legalized in your state, kids in public schools get story books that show two men kissing? That, not SSA, is the appropriate concern.

Peace,
Ed
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

This thread is wandering. Please stay with the topic of the Holy Father’s comments about homosexual clergy. This is not an open thread to discuss homosexuality or gay marriage.
 
Why must they be reminded that the sins they do not commit (despite being tempted) are more severe than other sins? Did they choose their temptations?
I think that many people - myself included - have a problem because this particular temptation to sin is now days understood to be somehow different from other temptations and that this is OK. Because I don’t see organised “tempted to steal” groups of people, or “tempted to cheat on their spouse” groups. They don’t insist on getting special treatment in terms of continual public announcements from the church that it is OK to feel tempted to steal or cheat as long as they don’t actually do it. Yet we have those who are attracted to the same sex in the church who want to proclaim their temptation to the world and a compassionate hug because it is OK to be tempted like that.

I don’t know what to think anymore. Actually, no, I do know. I am sick and tired of it, because these people march to the tune of the secular music whether they want to admit it or not.

Why can’t we Catholics be discreet about our various temptations to sin, seek help when we need it and stop scandalising the faithful with our need to come out and be loud and proud and to stress the temptation to our sin as a kind of identity?
 
Why can’t we Catholics be discreet about our various temptations to sin, seek help when we need it and stop scandalising the faithful with our need to come out and be loud and proud and to stress the temptation to our sin as a kind of identity?
I think Pope Francis’s comments about the wrongness of the gay lobbies were so appropriate. Too many Catholics have been swayed by their message and have bought into it. I hope the world will hear more from our Holy Father on this.
 
Before your side breaks out the champagne and before my side gets our knickers too much in a bunch, why don’t we wait until an actual transcript comes out.

The secular media has been wrong about the Church, in general, and this Pope, specifically, too many times to accept this report at face value.

As Archbishop Chaput said a couple of years ago,

We make a very serious mistake if we rely on media like the New York Times, Newsweek, CNN, or MSNBC for reliable news about religion. These news media simply don’t provide trustworthy information about religious faith—and sometimes they can’t provide it, either because of limited resources or because of their own editorial prejudices. These are secular operations focused on making a profit. They have very little sympathy for the Catholic faith, and quite a lot of aggressive skepticism toward any religious community that claims to preach and teach God’s truth.

I think his admonition would include ABC, as well.
Are there ‘sides’ in matters of the dignity of the human person?
 
“I have yet to find anyone who has a business card that says he is gay,” the pope added

First of all, he was referring to gay priests. Priests are celibate. He seems to be claiming that so-called gay priests (“they say they exist”) amount to more than just their sexual orientation. They are first and foremost men of God. A different approach to the issue than Benedict’s, but no less Catholic.

Ugh. The media. :dts:
Exactly. Heterosexual priests. Homosexual priests. Bisexual priests. As long as they are chaste and celibate there is no problem.
 
Though the media headlines reveal how subconsciously desperate secularists are for the Pope to approve homosexual behavior, this BBC story actually contains much more than a lot of other stories that all but suggest the Pope says homosexual behavior is a-ok.
Even heterosexual ‘behaviour’ is not ok outside of marriage. Homosexual behaviour is not ok outside of marriage (which there cannot be). So where is the problem? Gay or hetero the important thing is chastity.
 
Exactly. Heterosexual priests. Homosexual priests. Bisexual priests. As long as they are chaste and celibate there is no problem.
Exactly. A person’s sexual orientation is not in itself sinful. There is absolutely no reason why the Church cannot have homosexual priests, to pretend that we don’t already is to be blind to reality. There is no reason whatsoever why a homosexual man cannot be just as good a priest as a heterosexual man.

Each and every one of us has temptations that we struggle to avoid acting on.
 
A simple question of charity…

Since no one on this thread is defending homosexual actions, I wonder why people are continually emphasizing how they are exceptionally sinful.

Christ Jesus gives to all of us the power to be sinless, despite any temptations we have. So we don’t need to discuss how severe the SIN is, because there are hundreds of thousands of people in America who have never committed ANY homosexual acts, and yet experience same-sex ATTRACTION.

Why must they be reminded that the sins they do not commit (despite being tempted) are more severe than other sins? Did they choose their temptations?

(Perhaps there is someone else you’re addressing, someone who insists that homosexual actions aren’t seriously sinful because of their object? Or who on this thread is saying that?) :confused:

I’m just not feelin’ the love in this thread. :nope:
Right. What’s happening here on this thread and sometimes in the church, is simply a difference in emphases not in belief, as the church often puts it. Both views are legitimate because they address different concerns. What the two sides of this little debate are failing to do is acknowledge these different concerns/problems that the other is trying to address and simply jumping on to accusations of the other being either untruthful or uncharitable. We should remember that sin constitutes an objective element, the grave matter, and a subjective element, the knowledge and consent or the free will.

Side A: For Fix and the others: the concern is the propaganda that has been used to support this sin in the modern world, which is that homosexuality is a good thing in itself, a normal thing. The point they’re trying to make is that this is, in fact, not a good thing, not a merely harmless thing in itself nor normal, just like the predisposition for depression is not in itself a normal thing. This is the catholic teaching. These posters are not trying to just be mean and unkind to people who suffer from this particular weakness, they’re simply trying to combat the presumptions underlying modern debates that this orientation is ok just as long as you don’t act on it. It’s in fact not ok, it’s a weakness, a disorder that can be corrected gradually by grace like all other disorders we have from the fall. That’s part of the work of sanctification. For some people it will be completed in this world, for others, in the next world. ********************************************************************************************************For the other posters, the side B part of this debate, the focus is more subjective. That is, the concern is the individual sufferer, not the objective condition of SSA. Naturally, the only proper Christian attitude in this case is that of love and mercy. That’s why they’re saying that it doesn’t matter whether its heterosexual/homosexual temptation. This is 100% true. For the particular Christian suffering temptation, it doesn’t matter what class the temptation falls under if it’s leading you to mortal sin. Because you are not the source of that temptation, the devil is, there’s absolutely no need to feel shame about a sin that is being committed against you by a different entity—the Devil. It’s not your sin, not until you cooperate. You have a particular weakness due to the fall that the devil is exploiting. We all have a disordered human nature after the fall, and it doesn’t always look the same in all of us. So for you, it doesn’t matter what class the temptation falls into, The response is the same: prayer, grace, sacraments, and aavoiding near occassions of sin. You can only resist with grace, and the greater the force of temptation, the more grace you have to overcome, and the more merits you gain whenever successful. You have an increase in charity whenever you do. I think this is the same emphases of pope Francis, which the media is wrongly contrasting with the objective statements of the church regarding homosexuality, or those of pope Benedict. The “side B” approach is more pastoral, it is talking directly to the person suffering, it’s the same attitude you will find in the particular saints who write about interior struggles in the spiritual life, though they don’t mention particular sins, but generally, like “sins against chastity” or something like that. Even Pope Benedict also speaks this way when addressing confessors and those who pastor these people, the tone is different even for him in these cases, because at that point, it’s about the individual Christian, the human being, not the particular condition. I sense that Francis in general, is a pastor, more than he’s a teacher, so his approach is always towards the subjective element than the objective. He confuses people because they’re expecting a firm teacher, instead they have a firm pastor. Perhaps at this point in time, the church needs a pastor a tiny bit more than it needs a strong teacher. With that, thank you. I will not be returning.
 
Thanks, Mark.

This is the Church’s stated position. How does the Church show such concern? Only in the confessional? In groups like Courage, where gay people are stunted off together into their own ghetto, like lepers? Is there no hope for more light than this?

I have seen numerous people on these forums advocating that we help people with SSA live chaste and holy lives. The way to do this is for them to build relationships with godly heterosexual men and women, where these men and women know their temptations and love them anyway.

This was Jesus’s way with tax collectors, with prostitutes, with sinners. The Vatican says the Church “is really concerned” about people struggling against their homosexual attractions. We are the Church. Are WE concerned? :confused:
Sorry for the delay in responding.

How does the Church show concern for ANYBODY? More importantly, how should the Church show concern for ANYBODY?

I’m not trying to equate people with same sex attraction with any other sinful tendencies here, but just think about it:
  • If you had a man who made his living by committing identity theft and running other peoples’ credit cards online, how would the Church relate to that person?
  • If you had a woman who made her life as a high-priced escort, how would the Church relate to that person?
  • If you had a man who made his life as a coyote working in trafficking illegal aliens across the border, discarding those who couldn’t keep up, how would the Church relate to that person?
  • How would the Church deal with a crack addict who did any number of unsavory things to raise the funds to support that addiction?
Again,I am not trying to draw a moral equivalence here between any condition…with the exception of the fact that the behaviors are all sinful and will land that person in Hell if not for God’s mercy making repentance possible.

After these people are evangelized, brought back into communion with the Church through the sacraments, and so on, how should the Church deal with these people?

Take, for example, the high-end prostitute. She may have earned $1,000 a day through “plying her trade.” But with a potential arrest record in her background, maybe nothing more than a high school degree and few marketable skills, there could, potentially, be a serious amount of internal pressure on her to return to her old “profession,” particularly when the bills come due.

Perhaps in the larger cities, there might be a particular apostolate to try to help rescue prostitutes from the trade. Perhaps there might be some sort of support group established for former prostitutes to try to help them get their lives back to normal and keep it that way. But would that be the extent of what’s available?

I would imagine that she, at some point, would be encouraged to get involved in normal parish life: the young adult group, the women’s group, working in the soup kitchen, or whatever. But I cannot imagine that, particularly in the weeks and months following her conversion, that she would be encouraged to proclaim “Hi, I’m Mary Ann, and I’m a prostitute. But don’t worry, I don’t actively turn tricks anymore.” (If such a thing would occur, I can imagine the surface reaction would be “good for you” while all the women in the parish whisper in their men’s ears: “stay away from that woman.”)

While at some point in time, it might be appropriate, in certain limited circumstances, for our former prostitute to give a talk about her former life (as a testament to God’s mercy and how His mercy, through the Church, helped deliver her), I think the advice she would likely be given would be to not dwell on her past but to concentrate on the present and look toward the future.

[bibledrb]Phil 3:13[/bibledrb]

And, I’m sure that the same things would apply (in general principle) to our former identity thief, our former coyote, or our recovering crack addict.

I guess what I’m wondering is why would Courage need to be some sort of ghetto? Why would the man who has repented of homosexual behavior and who has made a commitment to live chastely need to ***only ***associate himself with Courage? Why would such a man not get involved in the Knights of Columbus, the men’s Bible study group, the young adult’s group, the soup kitchen, etc.? Because of fear of rejection once they learn he has SSA? Why would that come up? At least in my Knights of Columbus council, we don’t make a habit of going around and asking single members if they are gay. Nor in the men’s Bible study. Nor in the religious education department (the RE dept does ask catechists to certify that they are living in accordance with the teachings of the Church…but not anything more detailed than that).
 
Perhaps at this point in time, the church needs a pastor a tiny bit more than it needs a strong teacher.
I think you well summed up the situation with “Side A” and “Side B” and I think you’re spot on about what the Church needs right now. She had and continues to have a great teacher in Pope Emeritus Benedict. She has a great pastor in Pope Francis.

We have massive volumes of teaching out there. But what we need now is a pastor to lead the flock back towards that teaching. I think Francis is doing that by meeting the world where it is.
 
I think that many people - myself included - have a problem because this particular temptation to sin is now days understood to be somehow different from other temptations and that this is OK. Because I don’t see organised “tempted to steal” groups of people, or “tempted to cheat on their spouse” groups. They don’t insist on getting special treatment in terms of continual public announcements from the church that it is OK to feel tempted to steal or cheat as long as they don’t actually do it. Yet we have those who are attracted to the same sex in the church who want to proclaim their temptation to the world and a compassionate hug because it is OK to be tempted like that.

I don’t know what to think anymore. Actually, no, I do know. I am sick and tired of it, because these people march to the tune of the secular music whether they want to admit it or not.

Why can’t we Catholics be discreet about our various temptations to sin, seek help when we need it and stop scandalising the faithful with our need to come out and be loud and proud and to stress the temptation to our sin as a kind of identity?
:clapping:

The Pope talked about people with homosexual inclinations who sin, go to confession, and try to live a moral life. That is Catholicism 101. It is what the Gospel is all about. The problem is the Pope’s words are hijacked even by self identified Catholics. They will say they agree with Church teaching but then go one to nuance it, equate it to heterosexual married acts, and generally play down the moral evil. They do this through an emotional appeal as we see in this thread. The Pope’s words must be viewed in context and reconciled with all of Church teaching.
 
Exactly. A person’s sexual orientation is not in itself sinful. There is absolutely no reason why the Church cannot have homosexual priests, to pretend that we don’t already is to be blind to reality. There is no reason whatsoever why a homosexual man cannot be just as good a priest as a heterosexual man.

Each and every one of us has temptations that we struggle to avoid acting on.
The Church has spoken on this topic and says differently.
 
Sorry for the delay in responding.

How does the Church show concern for ANYBODY? More importantly, how should the Church show concern for ANYBODY?

I’m not trying to equate people with same sex attraction with any other sinful tendencies here, but just think about it:
  • If you had a man who made his living by committing identity theft and running other peoples’ credit cards online, how would the Church relate to that person?
  • If you had a woman who made her life as a high-priced escort, how would the Church relate to that person?
  • If you had a man who made his life as a coyote working in trafficking illegal aliens across the border, discarding those who couldn’t keep up, how would the Church relate to that person?
  • How would the Church deal with a crack addict who did any number of unsavory things to raise the funds to support that addiction?
Again,I am not trying to draw a moral equivalence here between any condition…with the exception of the fact that the behaviors are all sinful and will land that person in Hell if not for God’s mercy making repentance possible.

After these people are evangelized, brought back into communion with the Church through the sacraments, and so on, how should the Church deal with these people?

Take, for example, the high-end prostitute. She may have earned $1,000 a day through “plying her trade.” But with a potential arrest record in her background, maybe nothing more than a high school degree and few marketable skills, there could, potentially, be a serious amount of internal pressure on her to return to her old “profession,” particularly when the bills come due.

Perhaps in the larger cities, there might be a particular apostolate to try to help rescue prostitutes from the trade. Perhaps there might be some sort of support group established for former prostitutes to try to help them get their lives back to normal and keep it that way. But would that be the extent of what’s available?

I would imagine that she, at some point, would be encouraged to get involved in normal parish life: the young adult group, the women’s group, working in the soup kitchen, or whatever. But I cannot imagine that, particularly in the weeks and months following her conversion, that she would be encouraged to proclaim “Hi, I’m Mary Ann, and I’m a prostitute. But don’t worry, I don’t actively turn tricks anymore.” (If such a thing would occur, I can imagine the surface reaction would be “good for you” while all the women in the parish whisper in their men’s ears: “stay away from that woman.”)

While at some point in time, it might be appropriate, in certain limited circumstances, for our former prostitute to give a talk about her former life (as a testament to God’s mercy and how His mercy, through the Church, helped deliver her), I think the advice she would likely be given would be to not dwell on her past but to concentrate on the present and look toward the future.

[bibledrb]Phil 3:13[/bibledrb]

And, I’m sure that the same things would apply (in general principle) to our former identity thief, our former coyote, or our recovering crack addict.

I guess what I’m wondering is why would Courage need to be some sort of ghetto? Why would the man who has repented of homosexual behavior and who has made a commitment to live chastely need to ***only ***associate himself with Courage? Why would such a man not get involved in the Knights of Columbus, the men’s Bible study group, the young adult’s group, the soup kitchen, etc.? Because of fear of rejection once they learn he has SSA? Why would that come up? At least in my Knights of Columbus council, we don’t make a habit of going around and asking single members if they are gay. Nor in the men’s Bible study. Nor in the religious education department (the RE dept does ask catechists to certify that they are living in accordance with the teachings of the Church…but not anything more detailed than that).
Thank you for saying this. I was going to post a similar analogy. Imagine a married man constantly talking about his attraction to other women. He says he accepts Church teaching and does not give in, but constantly talks about it. He then accuses others of lacking charity for not constantly affirming his denial of temptation. He claims the Church needs to do more to address his disordered desire but does not want anyone to point out it is disordered. That is just a small piece of the puzzle. Add to that the tidal wave of propaganda throughout our society including schools and then we just get a small taste of the inverted way we view this enormous problem.
 
Right. What’s happening here on this thread and sometimes in the church, is simply a difference in emphases not in belief, as the church often puts it. Both views are legitimate because they address different concerns. What the two sides of this little debate are failing to do is acknowledge these different concerns/problems that the other is trying to address and simply jumping on to accusations of the other being either untruthful or uncharitable. We should remember that sin constitutes an objective element, the grave matter, and a subjective element, the knowledge and consent or the free will.

Side A: For Fix and the others: the concern is the propaganda that has been used to support this sin in the modern world, which is that homosexuality is a good thing in itself, a normal thing. The point they’re trying to make is that this is, in fact, not a good thing, not a merely harmless thing in itself nor normal, just like the predisposition for depression is not in itself a normal thing. This is the catholic teaching. These posters are not trying to just be mean and unkind to people who suffer from this particular weakness, they’re simply trying to combat the presumptions underlying modern debates that this orientation is ok just as long as you don’t act on it. It’s in fact not ok, it’s a weakness, a disorder that can be corrected gradually by grace like all other disorders we have from the fall. That’s part of the work of sanctification. For some people it will be completed in this world, for others, in the next world. ********************************************************************************************************For the other posters, the side B part of this debate, the focus is more subjective. That is, the concern is the individual sufferer, not the objective condition of SSA. Naturally, the only proper Christian attitude in this case is that of love and mercy. That’s why they’re saying that it doesn’t matter whether its heterosexual/homosexual temptation. This is 100% true. For the particular Christian suffering temptation, it doesn’t matter what class the temptation falls under if it’s leading you to mortal sin. Because you are not the source of that temptation, the devil is, there’s absolutely no need to feel shame about a sin that is being committed against you by a different entity—the Devil. It’s not your sin, not until you cooperate. You have a particular weakness due to the fall that the devil is exploiting. We all have a disordered human nature after the fall, and it doesn’t always look the same in all of us. So for you, it doesn’t matter what class the temptation falls into, The response is the same: prayer, grace, sacraments, and aavoiding near occassions of sin. You can only resist with grace, and the greater the force of temptation, the more grace you have to overcome, and the more merits you gain whenever successful. You have an increase in charity whenever you do. I think this is the same emphases of pope Francis, which the media is wrongly contrasting with the objective statements of the church regarding homosexuality, or those of pope Benedict. The “side B” approach is more pastoral, it is talking directly to the person suffering, it’s the same attitude you will find in the particular saints who write about interior struggles in the spiritual life, though they don’t mention particular sins, but generally, like “sins against chastity” or something like that. Even Pope Benedict also speaks this way when addressing confessors and those who pastor these people, the tone is different even for him in these cases, because at that point, it’s about the individual Christian, the human being, not the particular condition. I sense that Francis in general, is a pastor, more than he’s a teacher, so his approach is always towards the subjective element than the objective. He confuses people because they’re expecting a firm teacher, instead they have a firm pastor. Perhaps at this point in time, the church needs a pastor a tiny bit more than it needs a strong teacher. With that, thank you. I will not be returning.
Good job and it goes to the main point of this thread about the Pope’s words. There is plenty of interpretation about his words because of what you explain here. His words can be used to defend any agenda and that is why some are disappointed in how he said what he said.
 
In the past, olive branches have been made to other peoples, building bridges with the Eastern Orthodox Faith or the overture to the Muslim faith as we have seen. This strikes me as the same way.
 
I for one do not see why the Pope’s words should be such a shock to anyone: He’s totally right to say that he shouldn’t judge people with SSA, and let’s face it, most people in the world outside of our Catholic bubble do refer to anyone with SSA–whether they act on it or whether they’re as celibate and orthodox as a saintly priest–as gay, because the definition of “gay” (or at least bisexual) in the greater culture is being attracted to the same gender, regardless of what one does about it. For most people, “gay” is interchangeable and synonymous with “has same sex atttractions.” By using the phrase “gays” or “gay people” the Pope is only speaking in a language that the world will understand, regardless of the “mainstream” media’s attempts to twist his meaning, which is probably deliberate and he cannot be blamed for that. Anyone who even really cares what the Catholic Church teaches knows that when the Pope says “IF they’re seeking the Lord and have goodwill” that this would mean they’re trying to seek and live according to Christian teaching, which a genuine seeker would know does not approve of homosexual acts.

Those in the secular world who are automatically assuming the Pope means it’s okay to act on homosexual inclinations are not interested in Truth anyway, and it’s not the Pope’s job to make sure that all the sophists out there have no grounds to twist his words. Those same sophists twisted Pope Benedict XVI’s words to make it seem that he thought people with homosexual sins or temptations were inferior, and that too was wrong, but Pope Benedict XVI was not responsible for that. Neither is this Pope responsible for the opposite assumption. One way or the other, the Pope is going to be misinterpreted as either hating gay people or thinking the gay lifestyle is okay. And a Pope is no more responsible for one misinterpretation than the other, because the people doing the misinterpreting know what they’re doing.

I myself have four younger brothers, two who are upstanding Christian guys but two who are irreligious. One of them has relationships with men, and the other, I am fairly certain, has unwed sex with the opposite gender. And if not for the fact that the brother with SSA was also very anti-Christian and disrespectful compared to the brother who is committing sins in a heterosexual way, I would NOT judge the one brother anymore harshly than the other. Both are committing grave sexual sin. I do not believe that the brother who sleeps with men, for that sin alone, would receive greater time in Purgatory or a greater punishment in Hell–if he should go there, that is, which I pray not–than the brother who sleeps with women would for that sin alone. With the Pope, I do not judge my gay brother anymore than I would judge the straight one. And with the Pope, I would not judge my gay brother as being in any way (personally) out of line if he was being chaste, just as I wouldn’t with my straight brother.

I know, I know that many are concerned that the Pope’s words fail to highlight the evidently oh-so-important fact of “But the Catechism says homosexual acts are intrinsically DISORDERED and that homosexual inclinations are objectively DISORDERD!!! :eek::eek::eek:” I have great problems with the implications of this complaint. Since when does “disordered” equal morally worse?! It could be said that Anorexia is more disordered than Gluttony, as gluttony is just an exaggeration of a God-given survival instinct, and yet Anorexia is nowhere on the list of Deadly Sins, while Gluttony is explicitly there, so I doubt we’re to conclude anorexia is “morally worse” than Gluttony.

So too it is with homosexual inclinations and acts. They are disordered in the sense that they are more incompatible the Natural Order of things, not in the sense that someone tempted by them is tempted by a greater sin, or that someone who commits them is committing a more grave sin. Not to mention that all sin is disordered to some degree, and all temptation to sin is disordered when compared with the non-concupiscent state for which we were originally intended. And conversely, all sin, yes even homosexual sin, usually has some root in a desire for the good–be it the good of intimacy, the good of pleasure, etc.–that is simply aimed in the wrong direction.

And if some here who struggle with SSA are offended when people say SSA and homosexual acts are “disordered” I’d say it’s because that word is thrown around in the moral sense so that “disordered=morally worse than or inferior to other temptations that are more compatible with the Natural Order.” That’s reading far more into the Catechism than it says, and I agree that the people who would use “disordered” in this sense are using it in an offensive way. I myself have Depression, clinically. That’s a disorder. I’m not offended if someone says so. It can even tempt me to the sin of Sloth. However if someone was using that tag, “disorder”, to imply that I was morally inferior (or inferior in any other way) to someone who did not have this disorder, then I would be quite offended.

In short, I see in the Pope’s words–although those with an agenda will see what they want to see and His Holiness ought not be blamed for that–a proclamation that he does not see himself as “holier than thou” when it comes to his regard for people struggling with homosexuality. I think, far too often, we like to look at people who struggle with sins we don’t and we take great comfort in thinking they’re “worse off” than we are, “less holy,” “more disordered,” or what have you. The Pope is simply rejecting that. With Jesus, He is saying “You without SIN, cast the first stone,” instead of “You without that KIND of sin, cast at will!”

I think we need to give His Holiness the benefit of the doubt. 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
But what we need now is a pastor to lead the flock back towards that teaching. I think Francis is doing that by meeting the world where it is.
Which is exactly what Jesus did and it created huge controversies as well. Empowering the unempowered, turning the status-quo upside down, embracing the sinner - this is the radical nature of Christ and Pope Francis understands it quite well.

I don’t think the MSM got it entirely wrong. They finally recognized that Pope Francis and by extension the Catholic Church, does not condemn anyone for being gay. This is the teaching that always seems to get lost in discussions about homosexuality, so you can’t really blame people for being surprised when they hear it. Pope Francis is emphasizing the “Good News” of our faith and for once the news picked up on it!

This is why so many of us are overjoyed! :extrahappy:

The reactions of people who worry that what Pope Francis said will be misunderstood reminds me of the story of Martha and Mary in Luke’s Gospel:

“Martha, burdened with much serving, came to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me by myself to do the serving? Tell her to help me.” The Lord said to her in reply, “Martha, Martha, you are anxious and worried about many things. There is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part and it will not be taken from her.” Luke 10: 40-42

Telling people that their same sex attractions are sinful is a burden. Telling them that the Church does not condemn anyone for being gay is the better part. At this moment, Pope Francis has chosen the better part.

In other parts of the interview, he made it clear that his focus in Rio was not to reiterate well know Church positions on sin. He said people, especially young people, already know what the Church has to say about things like abortion. Instead, his intention was to focus on the Church’s positive messages. Which is what he did.

It is clear to me that Pope Francis is a man who trusts entirely in Divine Providence and will not hesitate to act the moment he is inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is his strategy for rebuilding the Church and its awesome! Truly like a breathe of fresh air.
 
I’m with you Kindred. I don’t understand the near-obsession with “ranking” sins in order of grievance. One mortal sin is enough to break the relationship with God provided that there is no repentance. Surely we all understand that it is worse to actually murder someone than to savagely beat someone but leave the victim alive. We understand that verbally abusing a spouse or child is worse than doing so to a stranger. And likewise it’s understandable that, based purely on the natural design for sex, that homosexual relations are a greater twisting of that design than illicit heterosexual relations.

The bottom line is that this gradation is totally irrelevant. Like I said, one mortal sin is enough. Why play this game that we have to repeatedly point out the disorder involved in same-sex attraction. As the Holy Father said, the world is aware of the Church’s teaching on this matter. People tend to know the “big stuff” as it were. They know the Church teaches that homosexual relations are wrong, that She is against gay marriage, that She is against abortion and She is against divorce.

But do they know the mercy God wants to give us? Do they know that repentance and a clean slate requires only a simple confessing of the sins? Do they know that they can still be good and holy people even if they’ve lived in grave sin for decades? I’m guessing probably not. That’s the real message that’s drowned out in the world. The media plays up what the Church is against. Not what She is for!

And the Holy Father is noting that the Church is for reconciliation. She is for spreading the mercy of Christ! She is for the caring of the poor and downtrodden! She is for raising the lowly! She is for bringing sin into the light and making people whole!

She is for Christ’s chief message: “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”

So many, many people look at the Church and just see strict rules for living that they cannot hope to live up to. This is not true but it is their impression. How should we disabuse them of that impression? By simply shouting “you’re wrong!” or should we instead show mercy and compassion to our neighbors despite their flaws and preach the Gospel to them by our actions? I daresay shouting “we’re right” will not win many souls. And that’s what matters. Winning souls.

We as a people need to stop burying our talents in the ground because we are worried about God’s judgment. We need to take those treasures, bring them into the world and multiply them. We can only do that by meeting people where they are.
 
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