Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

[MyMy123]

Just read all your posts. Are you a TROLL, or do you just enjoy bashing Pope Francis?

I do not enjoy bashing any Pope. But there is nothing more disappointing to me than seeing a Pope who makes the same type of comments I hear from people who refuse to stand up against Gay marriage or any other sort of atrocities i.e. WHO AM I TO JUDGE? So excuse me for not feeling so attracted to commend the Pope on this one.

 

[The_Bucket]

As a man with same-sex attraction, I disagree. Men with SSA are more likely, in the priesthood, to violate their vows. Why? Because they are told to hide their attractions even from close friends, and what is hidden breeds sin. There is a reason that gay men “hook up” FAR more than heterosexual men. It is because they do not live in the light. Shame creates an environment where sin grows.

That is, until a hero like Francis turns on the light!

(Caveat: I don’t think a gay man living in the light is more likely to violate his vows than any other man. All the more reason for us to allow these men to be unashamed of their temptations).

I concur heartily with you. I’m saying that one is not more likely than the other to violate them all else being equal. Your point about the culture is quite salient. We need to stop dismissing the realities in which we all live. Same-sex attraction is real and is not a sin on its face. No matter how often the Church says that in her teachings, actions by her leaders and even members of the rank and file send a different message. That message is “We don’t want to deal with this because it’s sticky. Go away.”

Sexuality is powerful and can be confusing. It can be a source of great good and great evil. It can cause even those with the strongest of faith question why God’s will is X and not Y when Y is what they want. Bringing these issues into the light will not further confuse people; it will actually provide clarity.

 

[PhoenixRider]

Yeah. Alot of the guys covering the trip aren’t veteran religion correspondents (LOLZ! like those exist anymore). John Allen from the NCR once accurately observed how many of the reporters sent to cover the Vatican would be rookies who’s only experience are covering local news like traffic accidents and burglaries.

So imagine how they’ll jump at something like this without really analysing what the Pope said.

As far as I’m concerned, no one can really comment on this since the most we have ATM are summaries and clips from news agencies and no real explanation or discussion on the comments.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Now, if you are a faithful Catholic (which you should and most likely would be if you want to become a priest), you wouldn’t value SSA, would you? How then, would that fit the sacrifice? (cf. “experienced sacrifice”)

Can we control the things we value?

I am a man attracted to other men (though happily married to a stunningly beautiful woman). Do I value the bodies of other men? Yes. Not only do I believe that an attractive man’s body is objectively valuable (which is true), but I also feel instinctively that there is something to be gained in me enjoying a sexual relationship with another man. This feeling is false; it is a lie from the devil. But the feeling does not go away, simply because I don’t encourage it.

Anything that we feel to be good, we value. To be tempted is to experience the object of some sin as good. (No one is ever tempted by the perceived badness of something). So gay priests are giving up something they value – otherwise they wouldn’t be tempted by it.

 

[PaulinVA]

It does when one is considering the priesthood.

The priesthood, at it’s nature’ is sacrificial. It involves sacrifice.

When a heterosexual priest gives up the Natural Good of marriage for the sake of the priesthood, that is a sacrifice. Something Good is given up to in exchange for a life of service to others.

But, celibacy is a discipline. There is no exchange. Say a heterosexual priest has no desire to marry - he is not giving up anything he wants. Where does he fit in?

In the case of a homosexual priest, there is no Natural Good given up in choosing to be celibate, there is not the level of sacrifice that is entailed with the heterosexual priest.

But, his priesthood is just as valid.

There really IS a difference in celibacy in a heterosexual priest and a homosexual one. One gives up a Natural Good in order to serve, the other is doing what they are called to do anyway.

But, is that sacrifice required for valid orders?

 

[triumphguy]

The left wing must accept the pope is Catholic. The truth of the moral teachings will never change. Never.

We cannot make off the cuff remarks into Church teaching or doctrine.

And the right wing must accept that that the pope is Catholic too.

I think the Holy Father is going to challenge us all. And rightly so.

 

[The_Bucket]

I do not enjoy bashing any Pope. But there is nothing more disappointing to me than seeing a Pope who makes the same type of comments I hear from people who refuse to stand up against Gay marriage or any other sort of atrocities i.e. WHO AM I TO JUDGE?

Pretty sure he affirmed the Church’s teachings on female ordination and homosexual acts. So… what’s wrong here? That he refuses to sit in the place of God and issue judgments? Good! I would hope that someone given the sacred honor and duty to lead the Church on Earth would know where his responsibilities and powers end. And they end with the ability to judge a soul either worthy of eternal life or deserving of damnation. That is reserved for the Lord alone.

 

[MyMy123]

Can we control the things we value?

I am a man attracted to other men (though happily married to a stunningly beautiful woman). Do I value the bodies of other men? Yes. Not only do I believe that an attractive man’s body is objectively valuable (which is true), but I also feel instinctively that there is something to be gained in me enjoying a sexual relationship with another man. This feeling is false; it is a lie from the devil. But the feeling does not go away, simply because I don’t encourage it.

Anything that we feel to be good, we value. To be tempted is to experience the object of some sin as good. (No one is ever tempted by the perceived badness of something). So gay priests are giving up something they value – otherwise they wouldn’t be tempted by it.

Priesthood is not about giving up some subjective good i.e. “I happen to value gay sex but I am gonna give it up”.

Priesthood is about giving up an OBJECTIVE GOOD i.e. Marriage.

So please stop making invalid comparisons.

 

[PhoenixRider]

Yeah… Everyone should just take a chill pill and wait for the Vatican to make an official statement. Can we do that before launching a debate about the Pope’s views on homosexuality?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I concur heartily with you. I’m saying that one is not more likely than the other to violate them all else being equal. Your point about the culture is quite salient. We need to stop dismissing the realities in which we all live. Same-sex attraction is real and is not a sin on its face. No matter how often the Church says that in her teachings, actions by her leaders and even members of the rank and file send a different message. That message is “We don’t want to deal with this because it’s sticky. Go away.”

Sexuality is powerful and can be confusing. It can be a source of great good and great evil. It can cause even those with the strongest of faith question why God’s will is X and not Y when Y is what they want. Bringing these issues into the light will not further confuse people; it will actually provide clarity.

 

[fix]

Can we control the things we value?

I am a man attracted to other men (though happily married to a stunningly beautiful woman). Do I value the bodies of other men? Yes. Not only do I believe that an attractive man’s body is objectively valuable (which is true), but I also feel instinctively that there is something to be gained in me enjoying a sexual relationship with another man. This feeling is false; it is a lie from the devil. But the feeling does not go away, simply because I don’t encourage it.

Anything that we feel to be good, we value. To be tempted is to experience the object of some sin as good. (No one is ever tempted by the perceived badness of something). So gay priests are giving up something they value – otherwise they wouldn’t be tempted by it.

They are not giving up a good. Period. They could give up a temptation. That is not morally equal to the marital act which is a true good.

 

[fix]

Priesthood is not about giving up some subjective good i.e. “I happen to value gay sex but I am gonna give it up”.

Priesthood is about giving up an OBJECTIVE GOOD i.e. Marriage.

So please stop making invalid comparisons.

Exactly.

 

[ThinkTwice]

I do not enjoy bashing any Pope. But there is nothing more disappointing to me than seeing a Pope who makes the same type of comments I hear from people who refuse to stand up against Gay marriage or any other sort of atrocities i.e. WHO AM I TO JUDGE? So excuse me for not feeling so attracted to commend the Pope on this one.

Some just want to take the church to where sin does not matter and pretend they cannot control there actions.

Proverbs 21:3
(KJV)
To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Priesthood is not about giving up some subjective good i.e. “I happen to value gay sex but I am gonna give it up”.

Priesthood is about giving up an OBJECTIVE GOOD i.e. Marriage.

I don’t disagree. I was simply saying that giving up a subjective good is a REAL SACRIFICE.

If you have ever been freed from an addiction, you will understand that it is a real sacrifice. If not, take my word for it: I hope you never have to learn for yourself.

 

[fix]

But, celibacy is a discipline. There is no exchange. Say a heterosexual priest has no desire to marry - he is not giving up anything he wants. Where does he fit in?

But, his priesthood is just as valid.

But, is that sacrifice required for valid orders?

None of these are the issue though. The issue is falsely, and unjustly, comparing giving up marriage with avoiding grave sin. The priesthood is not about running away or avoiding something.

 

[MyMy123]

Pretty sure he affirmed the Church’s teachings on female ordination and homosexual acts. So… what’s wrong here? That he refuses to sit in the place of God and issue judgments? Good! I would hope that someone given the sacred honor and duty to lead the Church on Earth would know where his responsibilities and powers end. And they end with the ability to judge a soul either worthy of eternal life or deserving of damnation. That is reserved for the Lord alone.

We can make something called judgements on course of action. So when someone says that I judge that this dress inappropriate to wear in public, that is a prudent assessment. Similarly, one can make an intelligent judgement whether to allow a homosexual to be a priest. ALSO, one can JUDGE homosexual acts as sinful. Yes, that is an act of judgement. Maybe someone should give the Pope a dictionary.

Anyway, the problem with what he said is

1. He disregarded the obligation that everyone has to make intelligent JUDGEMENTS on avoiding occasions of sin
2. He made a confusing statement that can easily lead many to misinterpret him as saying “if you intend well, its ok to be Gay”. All you need to do is take a peak in the comment sections.

So for these reasons, what he did was unacceptable. (oh and not to mention that he spit in the face of the previous Popes).

 

[Prodigal_Son]

They are not giving up a good. Period. They could give up a temptation. That is not morally equal to the marital act which is a true good.

(1) You cannot give up temptations. Temptations are not directly under our control.

(2) I agree that the sacrifices are not objectively comparable, since the one thing is a real good and the other is a counterfeit good. But both are sacrifices.

 

[Neofight]

** According to the Wall Street Journal, the Pope’s comments about homosexuality came in the context of a question about gay priests.**
huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/pope-francis-gays_n_3669635.html

If the catholic church is accepting Gay priest but not heterosexual priest they are becoming a joke. I know that’s not the case in public but in private its appearing that way.

As far as just gay acts the bible to me just saying its a abomination to have such fleshy acts and then still the mind and pray.Its just not the way to the kingdom of God but we all have sins and most grow out of the abundance of sex.

Herein lies the problem…there is nothing anymore wrong with gay priests as heterosexual priest. Same sex and opposite sex attraction is not a sin.

What is a sin is sex (straight or gay) outside of sacramental marriage.

If a priest honors his vow of celibacy, the is no sin .

Period.

The Holy Father is right, therefore in saying what he said.

Now, if only we were to echo, “Who are WE to judge”.

 

[MyMy123]

I don’t disagree. I was simply saying that giving up a subjective good is a REAL SACRIFICE.

If you have ever been freed from an addiction, you will understand that it is a real sacrifice. If not, take my word for it: I hope you never have to learn for yourself.

Well it does not matter if the sacrifice is real. The issue here is whether it is an objectively good end that is sacrificed or some subjective desire. With gay priests its the latter.

Also, giving up just any objective good is not qualification to be a priest as well. It has to be the giving up of the objective end of a human being (to have a family and reproduce) that is given up for the sake of God’s kingdom (a greater end).

 

[The_Bucket]

I don’t disagree. I was simply saying that giving up a subjective good is a REAL SACRIFICE.

If you have ever been freed from an addiction, you will understand that it is a real sacrifice. If not, take my word for it: I hope you never have to learn for yourself.

As someone who deals with an addiction, or at the least very poor impulse control and a propensity towards the sin of pornography… I’m with you.

I know pornography is sinful. I know it’s a lie. I also can’t deny that it is attractive to me. I’m a heterosexual male who likes the female form… and used pornography as an escape from anxiety issues from my early teens. Some people are immediately turned off by pornography and find viewing it to be sickening. There is nothing that will ever make it appear repulsive to me on a visceral level.

But so what? Just because it’s attractive to my eye doesn’t mean my mind and my spirit, if well disposed before God, can’t over come it. It can and is, one day at a time. That’s a sacrifice. It’s a sacrifice to do what is right. There is nothing wrong with admitting that. The Lord called us all to sacrifice our very lives for Him.