Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

[opus101]

Why is it so impossible to accept that while some (perhaps even many) Christians and Catholics are not uncharitable, there are those who are?

That is not hard to accept, and no one said it was. What seems highly improbable is that anything can be done about the very few who fall short in their responses and reactions. We live in a fallen world. Forgive others as you would like them to forgive you.
The answer is not to publicize the foibles of a few (there will always be those few) and expect everyone to be perfect. Nor is it to provide even more avenues for sharing and healing (unless one’s particular diocese does not have support in this area).

People simply cannot be forced to take interest in the aims of a particular group…we all have problems, we all have our interests, we all have others with special needs to take care of, whether it be children, elderly parents, friends, relatives , neighbors… And many of us have particular humanitarian/religious/political/educational/economic/environmental issues that we are actively participating in and are not forcing others to agree with us or support us in these endeavors! Some people aren’t nice to us. Some disagree. Some mischaracterize our intentions…but there is no point in whining about it! As Garfield says, “Big Fat Hairy Deal!”

In my experience, most people are nice, most people have good will, mostpeople respond in a helpful way…what more can we expect this side of heaven?

 

[Julian_Bashir]

Respectfully, you don’t know me or my motivation for sharing news articles. Please stop assuming you do. I did not claim that “we do not condemn such attacks.” This is a definite mischaracterization.

And I was present when another poster chastised you for referring to “the gays.” Unless you comfortably describe “the blacks,” for example, I would encourage you to drop the definite article. It’s unnecessary and it leads people to think you’re describing a non-human group is a pejorative way.

Maybe you missed this portion of my earlier post?

I was not generalizing about all Catholics here. I was not trying to identify a “precedent.” I was noting that unlike the poster to whom I was responding, I have come across uncharitable Catholics. It’s just that simple.

Then I agree. I come across Catholics who sin all the time, and encounter far more Catholics who ignore or don’t know the Church’s teaching on contraception, homosexual marriage, and abortion. Is there a need to address those issues as well, and render a statement of non-judgement against them as well? For in his own words, who is the Pope to judge?

Therein lies the problem. The Pope appears to be a bit glib with reporters on issues that require anything but glibness. They are issues of spiritual life and death. If the Pope was as clear as some have claimed, we would be discussing his quotes in as many topics on a Catholic forum where we know the truth.

And if indeed the Pope was clear, and also at the same time said nothing the Church already doesn’t teach and has said, then by definition, the previous papacies of the past 50 years or so have been equally clear, and yet, we are told there is a need for clarity? Now that’s confusing…

 

[Julian_Bashir]

And I’ll restate it again for the new crowd, I said before and Prodigal Son said the same… no one is advocating for everyone to walk around and talk about how sinful they are and broadcast their flaws to the rest of the world ad nauseam. St. Faustina is quite right to say that such an environment would be disruptive to the interior lives of others.

But look, we can’t live in our own little bubbles. And that’s Francis’ biggest point. Not just on this issue or in that one statement, but in everything. Francis has been a huge advocate for getting the Church and its members (particularly the clergy) outside of itself. His message is a pastoral one that I’m sure it’s mostly aimed at the clergy but is important for us all.

It is a delicate balance, though. We are told to come out of our bubbles, evangelize, live our lives and strong committed Catholics, preaching the good news.

You cannot do that in the era with live without confronting (everyone has a different manner in which they confront, of course) some of the more prominent ills that go after society. Pornography, the breakdown of family, and homosexual-legimacy rank at the top. You can trace all of them to the acceptance of contraception, and perhaps battling that would get to the root of our problems. But we were not put on this earth to not spread Christ’s teachings, and not battle back the devil when he seeks to spread his lies and destroy God’s creation.

Again, there are few movements or parades that celebrate pornography or masturbation on a large scale. Pornography is not taught in schools as a normal hobby. The same cannot be said of homosexuality, and therein lies the rub. We are all our brothers’ keepers.

So Bucket, without resorting to sarcasm such as we find in Posts #656 and #689, and in which I also used in my post which was a generalization based upon the many threads on this board, what would you suggest we do to show compassion? I ask this with all sincerity because your words above need to be heeded. You see, there are those of us who are really weary of being accused of homophobia even when only implied and in addition, are now being told that we must also embrace the new openness by listening to those who need to talk about their disordered condition. I am not a trained therapist and being sensitive goes both ways. There are those who have no clue as to how to respond to some of the rather embarrassing and glaringly graphic posts contained in this very thread. It is not a conversational topic to most Christians and their need to tell it like it is whether we want to hear it or not, is rather disconcerting. It also serves to aid the gay lobby agenda because by talking about it we’ll become so used to it we’ll think it quite commonplace and therefore, normal. It is being used to undermine the traditional family. This is fact. Another factual point made by others is that it is totally inappropriate to expose innocence to this.

How are Christians in general not honoring the human dignity of gays? What would you have us do? You will not hear me saying, “I’m okay - you’re okay” while discussing this specific topic - that would be a lie according to the Church’s own definition, but at the same time I will tell you this. We had a gay couple right next door to us for a short while. After we got to know them, every time I saw one of them, I would give them a hearty handshake and actually found their company quite charming because they, in turn, never pushed their orientation in our faces. It was mutual respect because they knew quite well we were Christians.

For many, we will not be showing true compassion until we accept the homosexual lifestyle as the norm and legitimate. It is that simple. Speaking as the Pope did in terms of lobbies, I personally don’t think the lobbies want our love. They don’t want our prayers. They want us to accept and condone that which we cannot, and that is why there will always be an impasse with anyone who wishes to continue in their own sins. It applies to adulterers, thieves, and a myriad of other activities of ill repute.

The difference main difference of course is, there is no thieves guild lobbying for acceptance. Most adulterers skulk around under the cloak of secrecy. Even most people who look at pornography don’t flaunt it. The homosexual lobby is a powerful, and not for good. They have parades to flaunt their supposed legitimacy. They politicians declaring months be celebrated in their honor. They demand equal footing in terms of adoption and lifestyle teaching in our schools.

Some individuals want compassion. They certainly need it, as you or I do. The ground swell that we seeking legitimacy in society see does not. They want Catholics to get out of their way.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Statement of Most Reverend Salvatore Cordileone

The whole Church owes a debt of gratitude to Pope Francis for reiterating the Church’s love and welcome to all people, especially those who experience same-sex attraction, who often feel alienated from the Church. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, these brothers and sisters of ours “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith issued a Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons in 1986 that stated this principle even more strongly: “It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.” It is, indeed, a sign of a weakening of civilization when it is deemed acceptable to treat any segment of the population with anything less than the love and respect all deserve as children of God.

Of course the Church must be a place of welcome for people who experience same-sex attraction. The Church must be a safe place where they can feel secure and loved in revealing their orientation to others. No one has ever denied this, but we need to do a better job at making this known and following through on it. The Church must also be a community that assists her members in responding to the call to holiness. This is why the Church has support groups for people who can benefit from such help in living virtuously in their relationships. While the Church does not judge individuals, the Church does judge actions, for we know that some acts violate human dignity while others make us more truly human according to the image in which God originally made us. With regard to sexual acts, the Church has always faithfully taught, and always will, the teaching she has received from her Lord, namely, that they find their proper order and purpose within the marital union of husband and wife, and outside of the bond of marriage they are sinful. Both natural and revealed law teach us this truth. While everyone struggles with this to some degree, healthy societies encourage and support people to live in accordance with it.

With regard to priests, the call to the Priesthood is one of spiritual paternity. The same kind of qualities required for a man to be a successful husband and father of a family are required of the priest; renouncing marriage and his own family must be a sacrifice for the priest if he is going to be effective and truly happy in his Priesthood. This is the gauge by which we must measure whether or not a man has a call to the Priesthood. I am deeply grateful to so many wonderful priests I have known and have been privileged to work with in my many assignments who serve the Church with such great generosity and spiritual paternal affection.

Most Reverend Salvatore J. Cordileone

(July 29, 2013) SAN FRANCISCO

 

[_Abyssinia]

Statement of Most Reverend Salvatore Cordileone

The whole Church owes a debt of gratitude to Pope Francis for reiterating the Church’s love and welcome to all people, especially those who experience same-sex attraction, who often feel alienated from the Church. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, these brothers and sisters of ours “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith issued a Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons in 1986 that stated this principle even more strongly: “It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.” It is, indeed, a sign of a weakening of civilization when it is deemed acceptable to treat any segment of the population with anything less than the love and respect all deserve as children of God.

Of course the Church must be a place of welcome for people who experience same-sex attraction. The Church must be a safe place where they can feel secure and loved in revealing their orientation to others. No one has ever denied this, but we need to do a better job at making this known and following through on it. The Church must also be a community that assists her members in responding to the call to holiness. This is why the Church has support groups for people who can benefit from such help in living virtuously in their relationships. While the Church does not judge individuals, the Church does judge actions, for we know that some acts violate human dignity while others make us more truly human according to the image in which God originally made us. With regard to sexual acts, the Church has always faithfully taught, and always will, the teaching she has received from her Lord, namely, that they find their proper order and purpose within the marital union of husband and wife, and outside of the bond of marriage they are sinful. Both natural and revealed law teach us this truth. While everyone struggles with this to some degree, healthy societies encourage and support people to live in accordance with it.

With regard to priests, the call to the Priesthood is one of spiritual paternity. The same kind of qualities required for a man to be a successful husband and father of a family are required of the priest; renouncing marriage and his own family must be a sacrifice for the priest if he is going to be effective and truly happy in his Priesthood. This is the gauge by which we must measure whether or not a man has a call to the Priesthood. I am deeply grateful to so many wonderful priests I have known and have been privileged to work with in my many assignments who serve the Church with such great generosity and spiritual paternal affection.

Most Reverend Salvatore J. Cordileone

(July 29, 2013) SAN FRANCISCO

 

[kelvinf]

You wrote this earlier:
kelvinf;11064282:

A gay person on this forum once told me this:

I told him that I didn’t know that, because it is a term other gay people use. Just like in “gays and lesbians”. So I never would have imagined that the word “gays” could be offensive.

So you didn’t refer to “the gays”? Why include this quote, then?

So why did you claim that you were there when I made reference to “the gays” when I never said that? This is what you said:

And I was present when another poster chastised you for referring to “the gays.”

I have proven that your accusation was false.

You ask why I included the quote. Well, I wasn’t even addressing you. That was just to let people know that, sometimes, no matter what we say, some people will always complain and accuse us of offending them even when what was said was not in any way offensive.

If the other poster shows up here and brings her post into this thread, I’ll be happy to engage with it. I’m going to gently suggest that you dial it down a notch. Again, all I did was note that in my experience, I’ve heard from uncharitable Catholics regarding homosexuality. If others say they haven’t, great! I appreciate that you have taken such an interest in my posts that you apparently follow me from thread to thread. But as you have misrepresented my comments on more than one occasion now, perhaps there are others who merit your time and attention instead.

All I did was to give a concrete example of some of the claims you have made before.
It has also been proven here that those supposedly “scary” threads weren’t scary.

You said you were on the thread where I used the term “the gays” (and I have proven that claim to be false and haven’t accused you of following me around ). I have been on several of such threads just like you have been on many of such threads as well.
Now, you accuse me of following you around? Bravo! :clapping: Continue to make assumptions about people and false accusations.

FYI, I will certainly will not forget this thread and could make referene to it in future. So you could well accuse me again of following you around if I one day make reference to any of your posts on this thread.

 

[The_Bucket]

It is a delicate balance, though. We are told to come out of our bubbles, evangelize, live our lives and strong committed Catholics, preaching the good news.

You cannot do that in the era with live without confronting (everyone has a different manner in which they confront, of course) some of the more prominent ills that go after society. Pornography, the breakdown of family, and homosexual-legimacy rank at the top. You can trace all of them to the acceptance of contraception, and perhaps battling that would get to the root of our problems. But we were not put on this earth to not spread Christ’s teachings, and not battle back the devil when he seeks to spread his lies and destroy God’s creation.

Quite frankly I don’t see the normalization of homosexual acts being any more disturbing than contraception or shacking up between heterosexuals. And certainly not as grave an ill as abortion or even institutionalized racism and bigotry. And no, I don’t mean racism in America, I mean elsewhere in the world where being the wrong ethnicity or religion gets you shot.

Pornography has been around for millenia and so has contraception in at least some form. True enough that the pace has accelerated since the Lambeth Conference in 1930, but keep in mind that our protestant brothers and sisters tend to be reactionary. That is, they only embraced contraception because the teaching was already being ignored. There’s the big difference with the Church. The Catholic Church refuses to bend just because Her flock is going astray. In fact, Her wisdom is spot on in that the flock mimicking the world is all the more reason for Her to hold firm to the Truth.

Again, there are few movements or parades that celebrate pornography or masturbation on a large scale. Pornography is not taught in schools as a normal hobby. The same cannot be said of homosexuality, and therein lies the rub. We are all our brothers’ keepers.

Right, and that’s my point as far as people like me, porn addicts, don’t face pressure to “come out and accept it.” My disorder is reinforced by society. Homosexual individuals no longer face such reinforcement, which actually makes it more difficult to fight the sin.

For many, we will not be showing true compassion until we accept the homosexual lifestyle as the norm and legitimate. It is that simple. Speaking as the Pope did in terms of lobbies, I personally don’t think the lobbies want our love. They don’t want our prayers. They want us to accept and condone that which we cannot, and that is why there will always be an impasse with anyone who wishes to continue in their own sins. It applies to adulterers, thieves, and a myriad of other activities of ill repute.

You are absolutely right on this. However that should not keep us from showing love as Christ did and accepting the rebukes if they come our way. The Holy Father wants us all to summon up the courage of Christ, and the courage of St. Francis of Assisi, to go naked before the world, empty ourselves of all fear and preach the Gospel.

Remember that despite the depictions, Christ didn’t have that loincloth. He died naked and nailed to wooden beams for us. Why shouldn’t we do the same for our fellows?

Some individuals want compassion. They certainly need it, as you or I do. The ground swell that we seeking legitimacy in society see does not. They want Catholics to get out of their way.

We’re in agreement then. But their hatred should only inspire us to love more.

 

[gracepoole]

So why did you claim that you were there when I made reference to “the gays” when I never said that? This is what you said:

I have proven that your accusation was false.

You ask why I included the quote. Well, I wasn’t even addressing you. That was just to let people know that, sometimes, no matter what we say, some people will always complain and accuse us of offending them even when what was said was not in any way offensive.

First, got it – in a subsequent post, you identified the specific thread in which this series of comments took place and I was not a part of that thread. I must have been part of a different thread, then, in which I was lucky enough to witness someone referring to “the gays.” My apologies. Second, I don’t see the word “gay” as offensive but for the reason I provided earlier, I do see “the gays” as offensive. If you don’t use that phrase, great! One complaint down.

All I did was to give a concrete example of some of the claims you have made before.
It has also been proven here that those supposedly “scary” threads weren’t scary.

To you. Obviously others disagree.

You said you were on the thread where I used the term “the gays” (and I have proven that claim to be false and haven’t accused you of following me around ). I have been on several of such threads just like you have been on many of such threads as well.
Now, you accuse me of following you around? Bravo! :clapping: Continue to make assumptions about people and false accusations.

See above. And again, your tone indicates that there is far too much emotional investment here. I responded to your inclusion of a quote about “the gays” but had you not included it, it would have been a non-issue. You seem excited to label me, which is not the purpose of this thread. If you’d like to continue this chat via PM, so be it. Otherwise, I’m sure others here would prefer we get back to the thread’s subject.

FYI, I will certainly will not forget this thread and could make referene to it in future. So you could well accuse me again of following you around if I one day make reference to any of your posts on this thread.

You’re certainly free to obsess, as we all are.

 

[clem456]

The problem with terms like “the gays” is, they can separate people. It’s like saying “those people”. “Us” is the better way. Or “you and I”, “our”. This is the beauty of the Pope’s statement. He identifies with his people. He is one with them in their struggle, He does not separate them into groups by their sins, Yet he acknowledges the clear Church teaching in his talk.

As Bucket said earlier, tone is very important. Tone is substantial to loving someone, which involves bringing them closer to Christ, not reminding them how wrong they are. I personally struggle greatly with this. Words said in various ways at different times can mean very different things to wives, children, any person we speak to. It’s hard to hide behind “the truth” if we do not have charity in our hearts. The same words spoken at different times with different motivations can welcome someone, or they can separate them off into groups according to “their” sin. And the truth of our laws becomes a death sentence instead of an invitation to know Christ.
(Is there any such thing as “their” sin, except in the eyes of our God who has none?)

 

[clem456]

Statement of Most Reverend Salvatore Cordileone

Wow. Thanks for posting that.

 

[Tigg]

For many, we will not be showing true compassion until we accept the homosexual lifestyle as the norm and legitimate. It is that simple.

It is truly the bottom line and the contention exists because they know we can never capitulate. For those struggling with chastity I will say that I am also discerning that some want sympathy. Now sympathy, as recognizing another’s pain and wanting to console, is godly. OTOH, sympathy can be twisted into a demand for approval of that which we simply know is against the good. I have often wondered if those who wrongly accuse us of hate and judgment aren’t confusing the two.

As far as their need to announce their condition to the world I would think that could also serve a dark purpose by simply emphasizing it. Doesn’t constant and candid talk about something unacceptable to society and the natural law serve to neutralize the rancor and the inner struggle and make the subject less objectionable?

 

[clem456]

It is truly the bottom line and the contention exists because they know we can never capitulate. For those struggling with chastity I will say that I am also discerning that some want sympathy. Now sympathy, as recognizing another’s pain and wanting to console, is godly. OTOH, sympathy can be twisted into a demand for approval of that which we simply know is against the good. I have often wondered if those who wrongly accuse us of hate and judgment aren’t confusing the two.

As far as their need to announce their condition to the world I would think that could also serve a dark purpose by simply emphasizing it. Doesn’t constant and candid talk about something unacceptable to society and the natural law serve to neutralize the rancor and the inner struggle and make the subject less objectionable?

Sympathy may not be as useful in this context as is the word empathy. Empathy involves a deeper commitment to enter into the suffering of another person, rather than just have distant feelings for their situation. Empathy implies that a person is involved with and listening to someone, and identifies with them, is willing to find a common bond. In empathy, compassion moves beyond feelings of sympathy to a common suffering. Compassion means “to suffer with” rather than to have just feelings for like pity or shock or disappointment.
Christ models compassion for us, in that he became human to suffer everything that we suffer, including our sins. He became one with us in our humanity.
A tough example for us to follow.

 

[opus101]

Quite frankly I don’t see the normalization of homosexual acts being any more disturbing than contraception or shacking up between heterosexuals. And certainly not as grave an ill as abortion or even institutionalized racism and bigotry.

This is quite evident from all of your posts. Some will disagree strongly with your take on the benignity of the normalization of homosexualty. The normalization of such a thing would bring about the end of society as we know it and spell disaster for Christian civilization.
11068479:

The BucketRight, and that’s my point as far as people like me, porn addicts, don’t face pressure to “come out and accept it.” My disorder is reinforced by society. Homosexual individuals no longer face such reinforcement, which actually makes it more difficult to fight the sin.

THIS is your biggest contradiction on the whole thread!!! On the one hand, in order to overcome,you want even more support for those with SSA than is very generously offered by the Church , and on the other hand you are saying that the lack of reinforcement of the sinfulness of homosexuality makes it more difficult to fight it.

Which one is it?

By your statement above, it should actually be helpful that others focus on the unacceptable and sinful nature of it all… and to the contrary, by your other statements, it would be more helpful if others create an environment where it is publicly acceptable to have and discuss homosexuality in a public manner, and expect everyone to be sympathetic.

 

[opus101]

The Holy Father wants us all to summon up the courage of Christ, and the courage of St. Francis of Assisi, to go naked before the world, empty ourselves of all fear and preach the Gospel.

Please to not abuse the intentions of the Holy Father and of St. Francis.
St. Francis stripped himself naked as a renunciation of the world and sin, not as a self-revelatory gift to the world.

 

[opus101]

Well, vacation is just about over, and there are many things to attend to before everything hits the fan.

To all of those with SSA who have been offended by innapropriate remarks or actions in their parishes, I apologize on behalf of all Catholics. Things should not be that way.

Hopefully those who suffer this condition will find the support that they need in groups such as Courage, in spiritual direction, counseling, prayer groups and close friendships, and most importantly, through the Sacraments which are the wondrous things instituted by Christ Himself to aid us on our journey.

God bless us everyone!

 

[Lucianus]

And I’ll restate it again for the new crowd, I said before and Prodigal Son said the same… no one is advocating for everyone to walk around and talk about how sinful they are and broadcast their flaws to the rest of the world ad nauseam. St. Faustina is quite right to say that such an environment would be disruptive to the interior lives of others.

But look, we can’t live in our own little bubbles. And that’s Francis’ biggest point. Not just on this issue or in that one statement, but in everything. Francis has been a huge advocate for getting the Church and its members (particularly the clergy) outside of itself. His message is a pastoral one that I’m sure it’s mostly aimed at the clergy but is important for us all.

I can say “I’m a recovering pornography addict” on this forum as much as I like because it’s anonymous and it doesn’t really disrupt anyone’s lives. I would never do that in real life. That’s relegated for my in-person S-group and that’s it. However, there’s still a pretty strong stigma attached to habitual pornography use, especially when there’s a spouse involved, so there’s no real reason for me to feel pressured to get this out in the world.

There’s an opposite phenomenon when it comes to homosexuality. There are people that basically demand that anyone and everyone with same-sex attraction come out and proclaim it to the world so that the stigma is erased, everyone can “evolve” and those who continue to stand at the bulwarks of our faith are the ones that are pressured. I’m serious. You would not believe the amount of people who are incensed that people like Ed Koch did not come out as gay when he was alive. Anderson Cooper was also targeted for awhile for refusing to disclose his personal sexual proclivities in a public fashion. It’s ridiculous. There’s widespread sentiment out there that anyone who delays or refuses to “come out of the closet” is directly hurting other homosexuals. Again, I am not kidding.

So that’s what people with same-sex attraction are dealing with. They not only have these temptations but they are pressured to “come out” by others with similar proclivities and pressured to stay silent by what I hope are actually just well-meaning fellow Christians. It’s got to be enough to make someone scream.

It might behoove us all to recognize that it is harder than it has been in centuries, possibly millenia, for even good Catholic men and women to not act on same-sex attraction. There’s pornography everywhere, there’s a culture that celebrates homosexuality (being gay sort of makes you a celebrity), there’s gay marriage and there’s huge amounts of hostility thrown at the Church for “standing in the way of progress” on this issue.

All I’d suggest is to just let them talk and to ease up on the throttle of being so “burdened” by the sins or occasions of sin of others.

This thread is what prompted me to register, so I could join into the conversation. I particularly like the way you explained the situation, Bucket. I struggle with sexual sin myself (ephebophilia, masturbation and pornography), and I have met chaste men (and those trying to be chaste) who struggle with a wide variety of sexual desires. There are only a couple of close friends who know. As you mention, I generally only share/discuss in-person, when it is in an S-group…which I no longer attend. Anonymous fora are a different situation.

I don’t understand why those who struggle with same sex attraction believe their struggle is more noble or more acceptable than other sexual desires. What is it about homosexuality that makes it different? Why must people identify themselves in that manner?

I don’t know the genesis of my disordered sexual desires, but I have had them in adulthood as long as I can remember. I wouldn’t identify myself as ephebophile. I’m a Catholic man, working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[kelvinf]

See above. And again, your tone indicates that there is far too much emotional investment here. I responded to your inclusion of a quote about “the gays” but had you not included it, it would have been a non-issue. You seem excited to label me, which is not the purpose of this thread. If you’d like to continue this chat via PM, so be it. Otherwise, I’m sure others here would prefer we get back to the thread’s subject.

Can you never make a post without making a claim? Now it’s too much emotional investment? Sigh

Oh please, you charged me with following you around. When I brought that up, you say I seem excited to label you? Always very easy to find fault with others.

Yeah, PM, your typical way of shutting down a discussion.

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

Please charitably discuss the issues, not other members

 

[simpleas]

I have only talked extensively about my struggles with lust to people I have come close to in two bible studies, and on this forum here with people who are likewise struggling.

That being said, it is probably part of my cross to carry, that God is calling me to discuss this at men’s retreats etc…which I have already done on a small scale. There is a time and a place for everything. The question I have to ask is…“Is what I do for the greater glory of God?”

Good Question…

 

[The_Bucket]

This is quite evident from all of your posts. Some will disagree strongly with your take on the benignity of the normalization of homosexualty. The normalization of such a thing would bring about the end of society as we know it and spell disaster for Christian civilization.

Good gracious. It’s already normalized and I don’t think society is ended as we know it. In some ways it’s better than it’s been. In other ways, it’s worse. This isn’t breaking news. In the Middle Ages, Jews were routinely harassed and murdered in the public square during the lead up to Eastertide. Leaders of the Church endorsed wars, got ourselves into sticky political issues, ordered the execution of heretics and all kinds of nasty stuff.

Here in America we spent a good two centuries enslaving people based on race and another century treating those people as second-class citizens and lynching them if they stepped out of line.

Just forty years ago there were broad-based movements to ban homosexuals from getting housing in what now is hotbed of liberalism California!

So good. We’re not discriminatory and we’re not just randomly murdering people we don’t care for. Of course, we’ve also got the matters of contraception, abortion and yes, illicit sexual activity to deal with. These are all problems. They’re also not really new problems.

THIS is your biggest contradiction on the whole thread!!! On the one hand, in order to overcome,you want even more support for those with SSA than is very generously offered by the Church , and on the other hand you are saying that the lack of reinforcement of the sinfulness of homosexuality makes it more difficult to fight it.

Which one is it?

By your statement above, it should actually be helpful that others focus on the unacceptable and sinful nature of it all… and to the contrary, by your other statements, it would be more helpful if others create an environment where it is publicly acceptable to have and discuss homosexuality in a public manner, and expect everyone to be sympathetic.

I think I’ve been clear. I think homosexual individuals need to be met where they are and then brought into environments where it is acceptable to talk about it in a semipublic manner, have folks be sympathetic… and never retreat from the truth that the acts themselves are sinful. You can’t get people into those environments without meeting them where they are first. Let’s reach out, draw who we can towards us, give them freedom to talk about their struggles and support them without resorting to the false wisdom of the world that “everything is OK if you’re true to yourself.” That’s bunk. Folks need to know that sinful tendencies are not shameful, that we all have them, that we all fall down and that God is always there to pick us back up if we ask for His help.