Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

[clem456]

Pope Francis cannot condemn the sin of homosexual acts to a higher degree than other sins of a sexual nature; fornication and adultery. They, too, are an abomination !

Unfortunately, yours is a common misunderstanding.
…

While it is true that a homosexual action, seen in a vacuum devoid of all other considerations, is disordered, while sexual intercourse devoid of all other considerations is not disordered, what Kat is saying is well considered. What part of “gravely” or “Christ condemns” or “injustice” or “immoral” are we going to parse here by degrees of separation from God? If the Pope is the pastor of the whole Church, why would he emphasize the consequences of one grave or disordered sin over another?
The CCC vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

Offenses against chastity

2351 **Lust is disordered desire **for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "…

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is **gravely contrary **to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a **grave scandal **when there is corruption of the young.

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties… It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

2355 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. The one who pays **sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.140 …While it is always gravely sinful **to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 **Homosexuality **refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142
…
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

IV. OFFENSES AGAINST THE DIGNITY OF MARRIAGE

Adultery

2380 Adultery refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire.171 …

2381 Adultery is an injustice. …

Divorce

2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law…

2385 **Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder **into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

It is clearly difficult to condemn one sin to a greater (whatever that means?) degree than another. The words “Christ condemns” do a fine job of putting this in perspective.

 

[kozlosap]

WHAT??!! The pope says it’s not up to him to pass judgment? Good thing he doesn’t post on CAF!

 

[njlisa]

Quite true, hopefully this may lead to highlighting the church’s true position, more clearly.

I have read it.

 

[livingwordunity]

WHAT??!! The pope says it’s not up to him to pass judgment? Good thing he doesn’t post on CAF!

Gotta love it when people JUDGE us here on CAF for judging.

 

[maklavan]

I’ll wait for the Vatican statement just incase this turns out to be the sensationalism driven media twisting a theological talk to create a front page news.

I have nothing against the BBC. They’ve got excellent reporting. But they fall victims of the same drive to sensationalism like any other leading news service.

Pope Francis made this comment to reporters on the plane to Rome. I doubt that there will be any communique!

 

[Neofight]

threads like these make me wonder about the spiritual health of us all.

Lord have mercy
Christ have mercy
Lord have mercy

 

[fix]

True, I guess. But what significance does it hold? If one priest is successfully resisting a bad inclination and another is sacrificing a real good, is one priest better than the other? That’s the part of this discussion that confusses me.

It is a a true sacrifice to give up a real good. That distinction is not some legalistic minimal nicety, but goes to a deep theological understanding of what marriage is and what celibacy is.

My issue is with the modern notion of comparing unequal items and drawing conclusions. It is not fair to compare these issues as if they are similar.

 

[simpleas]

Ultimately it boils down to the fact that some people find homosexuality icky and so rather than actually sit down and discuss human sexuality and God’s plan for it like adults, they just stick to preconceived notions that those with same-sex attraction are somehow lesser people. That’s the message I’m hearing.

News flash people. We’re all disordered and broken in some way. We all have sinful tendencies. For some it’s same-sex attraction. For others, it’s deception. For others, substance dependency. For still others it’s ill temper and tendencies towards violence.

Is same-sex attraction disordered? Yes. It is in and of itself a moral wrong? No, no, no, a thousand times no and people who have that attraction are just as much children of God as anyone else. Stop saying things that make them feel marginalized or that they are somehow lesser people.

 

[njlisa]

Maybe the Holy Father is using his gift for speaking off the cuff to explain in simple language what the Church’s teaching is. There’s nothing wrong with making the Gospel more accessible to all.

 

[livingwordunity]

Maybe the Holy Father is using his gift for speaking off the cuff to explain in simple language what the Church’s teaching is. There’s nothing wrong with making the Gospel more accessible to all.

The Vatican will clear up the media caused confusion later in an official statement that will be ignored by the media.

 

[njlisa]

If you want to know what the Pope thinks about homosexuality read his encyclical.

I have.

 

[fix]

While it is true that a homosexual action, seen in a vacuum devoid of all other considerations, is disordered, while sexual intercourse devoid of all other considerations is not disordered, what Kat is saying is well considered. What part of “gravely” or “Christ condemns” or “injustice” or “immoral” are we going to parse here by degrees of separation from God? If the Pope is the pastor of the whole Church, why would he emphasize the consequences of one grave or disordered sin over another?
The CCC vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

It is clearly difficult to condemn one sin to a greater (whatever that means?) degree than another. The words “Christ condemns” do a fine job of putting this in perspective.

The CCC clearly mentions:

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

St. Thomas clearly shows how different types of lust are more or less grave.

 

[RKO]

Gotta love it when people JUDGE us here on CAF for judging.

Well, I don’t judge the state of your soul, nor do I judge your faith compared to my own. Nor do I say that I don’t pass judgment when I know that I do, and THAT, I think is where we differ. …But I guess it’s true that if actually living by the Jesus words “Judge not…” were to be required on religious forums, they would all close down.

 

[fix]

Gotta love it when people JUDGE us here on CAF for judging.

Like how that works?

 

[livingwordunity]

If you want to know what the Pope thinks about homosexuality read his encyclical.

I have.

Did you see this part of his encyclical?

“The first setting in which faith enlightens the human city is the family. I think first and foremost of the stable union of man and woman in marriage.” - Pope Francis, Lumen Fidei

.

 

[KrazyKat]

Is having an opinion judging ? We all have an opinion and often they are different.

 

[clem456]

Ultimately it boils down to the fact that some people find homosexuality icky and so rather than actually sit down and discuss human sexuality and God’s plan for it like adults, they just stick to preconceived notions that those with same-sex attraction are somehow lesser people. That’s the message I’m hearing.

News flash people. We’re all disordered and broken in some way. We all have sinful tendencies. For some it’s same-sex attraction. For others, it’s deception. For others, substance dependency. For still others it’s ill temper and tendencies towards violence.

Is same-sex attraction disordered? Yes. It is in and of itself a moral wrong? No, no, no, a thousand times no and people who have that attraction are just as much children of God as anyone else. Stop saying things that make them feel marginalized or that they are somehow lesser people.

Yep, revulsion for other sinners when we ourselves offend God.

12 pages of posts in a couple of hours?? It’s gotta be a thread on homosexuality. When people get this wired up about the other things you mention, we’ll know we are making progress.

 

[njlisa]

The Vatican will clear up the media caused confusion later in an official statement that will be ignored by the media.

I wonder why everything has to be scripted and why the Holy Father can’t speak in the moment as led by the Spirit. Further, the media did follow up on his points about atheism. See this article from the Huffington Post.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Did you see this part of his encyclical?

“The first setting in which faith enlightens the human city is the family. I think first and foremost of the stable union of man and woman in marriage.” - Pope Francis, Lumen Fidei

.

Who here is denying the beauty and sanctity of Christian marriage?

 

[liturgyluver]

What is there not to love about this pope. He is the biggest evangeliser the Church has seen in decades. This statement will certainly have some people on CAF reaching for the smelling salts!