Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

[McCall1981]

“We are proud to have recently been nominated for Best Catholic News Satire, narrowly losing out to the National Catholic Reporter.”

I’ve been having a very bad couple of days, but this made me smile, thanks for posting

 

[The_Bucket]

And as I challenged the other poster, if you have specific theology that says homosexual inclinations or actions will send you to hell more hastily than disordered heterosexual, please post it.

This attitude is scandalous. It drives people away from the Church who might otherwise approach confession, or try to understand Church teaching on homosexuality. That is not a process you should be involved in.

Disordered sexuality is primarily a condition of the heart, not which body parts go where, per the words of Christ himself.

All of this is tremendous. And B16 said nothing different by the way. He was speaking from a common sense standpoint about how homosexual seminarians could be a problem because they might be hooking up the seminary. Just like it would be a problem if your average heterosexual guy in his early to mid 20s was dropped into a school with a bunch of women.

Plus, as Prodigal Son pointed out, religious people with homosexual tendencies tend to be extremely secretive out of shame. So there’s a greater chance that such seminarians would go to great lengths to hide their attraction, their sexual activity and pretty much everything. That kind of deception leaks into every aspect of one’s life. Trust me. I know first hand. Not from SSA, but from being hooked on porn.

I don’t blast my porn addiction to the world in general, that’s why these accounts are anonymous, but I certainly find strength from meeting with others who have similar struggles. Bringing sin out into the light destroys it. Ostracizing sinners based on which particular sin they struggle with makes no sense. We’re all sinners. Why should we be more afraid to discuss sexual sins than say, greed, envy, violence, inattentiveness to the poor or anything else the Church teaches?

 

[fix]

You see what you want to see.

I see what is posted.

Lust is disordered, in every instance, always, forever. That’s the clear and consistent teaching of the Church. You and others are obsessed with sodomy as specially subject to God’s wrath over and above all the other disordered sexual practices.

No, we counter the gay propaganda that is part and parcel of the “gay” condition apparently. That is the need for a persecution complex and the need for constant reinforcement and identification with one’s disordered sexual inclinations. Do we see this with other sexual disorders?

This is wrong, and it’s not just treatment of SSA persons. And this is what the Pope expressed the other day. One disordered action or desire does not cast one into immorality any more than another.

The Pope did not say that.

Most of us have sexual sin, homo or hetero. And as I challenged the other poster, if you have specific theology that says homosexual inclinations or actions will send you to hell more hastily than disordered heterosexual, please post it.

You start from a false premise. The theological point, which the CCC makes, is that not all grave sin is of equal gravity. Now, this is part of Catholic theology. The question is why does this bother you so much?

This attitude is scandalous. It drives people away from the Church who might otherwise approach confession, or try to understand Church teaching on homosexuality. That is not a process you should be involved in.

No, your false charge is scandalous and drives people away from the Church who see false compassion and lukewarmness and laxism. You go from arguing theology to falsely accusing others because you cannot prove your position without emotion and rash judgment.

Disordered sexuality is primarily a condition of the heart, not which body parts go where, per the words of Christ himself.

This is your theology burnished onto Scripture.

 

[livingwordunity]

I just found this on the Vatican’s website (I used Google Translate):

**PRESS CONFERENCE OF POPE FRANCIS IN RETURN FLIGHT FROM BRAZIL **

Sunday, July 28, 2013

Patricia Zorzan:

[Speaking on behalf of the Brazilians. Society has changed, young people have changed and you see so many young people in Brazil. She did not mention abortion, marriage between persons of the same sex. **In Brazil, a law was passed that extends the right to abortion and allowed marriage between persons of the same sex. Why did not talk about this?]

Papa Francesco:

The Church has already expressed this perfectly. It was not necessary to go back, as I have not even talked about the fraud, deceit or other things which the Church has a clear doctrine!]

Source

 

[vames]

There are a lot of grey areas here it seems and one would really have to go through everything, what we know is he didn’t contradict Catholic teaching, as some headlines have said “Shift in tone not in substance” and that I go along with.

Of course he didn’t contradict Catholic teaching.
Like I said in another thread, I think the comment of Fr James Martin was correct: “Lots of pushback about the Pope’s comments about gays today. This should not surprise. Mercy is frightening. It was in Jesus’s time too.”
I understood what he meant when I saw a blog post by an Italian-speaking Catholic (SSPX) who accused the Pope of being “Pope Gay the First”, “the man of the gay mafia” and who criticized Jimmy Akin for “trying to defend the indefensible” and “the Neo-conservative press” for “desperately trying to spin the immense stupidity or evil intent” of Pope Francis. The blogger had said that even SSA chaste men are perverts, in the same league as inactive pedophiles, and adds that “I wouldn’t want either as neighbour”. So to me it’s pretty clear that even if ALL the press would have explained the Pope’s speech as Jimmy Akin did, people like that blogger would still use this speech as another proof that the last good pope was Pius XII.

 

[Tigg]

I understand this, and agree with both of you. What I don’t understand is that, given that this is the situation, why would Pope Francis continue to choose to make these kinds of statements?

I have to think that either: A) he doesn’t realize how these statements are going to be taken, or B) he knows how they will be taken, and chooses to say them anyway because he thinks there will be some good that will come of it.

For option A, I don’t think he could be that naieve, so it must be B. But what is the good that comes from these statements?

I want to understand because I feel so frustrated each time it seems like he plays right into the media’s hands and damage is done to the Church’s message. What’s his purpose here that I’m not seeing?

Do not lose heart…God understands all and justice and understanding will come upon the earth in His good timing.

 

[liturgyluver]

You see what you want to see.
Lust is disordered, in every instance, always, forever. That’s the clear and consistent teaching of the Church. You and others are obsessed with sodomy as specially subject to God’s wrath over and above all the other disordered sexual practices. This is wrong, and it’s not just treatment of SSA persons. And this is what the Pope expressed the other day. One disordered action or desire does not cast one into immorality any more than another. Most of us have sexual sin, homo or hetero. And as I challenged the other poster, if you have specific theology that says homosexual inclinations or actions will send you to hell more hastily than disordered heterosexual, please post it.

This attitude is scandalous. It drives people away from the Church who might otherwise approach confession, or try to understand Church teaching on homosexuality. That is not a process you should be involved in.

Disordered sexuality is primarily a condition of the heart, not which body parts go where, per the words of Christ himself.

Excellent post.

 

[fix]

What’s the point of repeating that message though? We know what the Church’s teaching is. Blasting “HOMOSEXUAL ATTRACTION IS DISORDERED” is not going to, you know, bring homosexuals back to the faith. Francis is trying to meet people where they are. You know who else did that? Jesus.

The context is not exclusively about evangelization. We are talking theology here. Why must the truth be separated from all else? Blasting that it is wrong to speak the truth will not bring back anyone. This entire thread is about misreading the Pope’s words by those with an agenda. The posts here bear that out well.

St. Thomas Aquinas was a brilliant man. He is quite right to carry the title of doctor of the Church. He was also wrong on a number of matters.

This is your position? Does the Church agree with you that he is wrong about the gravity of Lust? I think not. I think that when the truth is shown to some people they prefer to deny it for various reason.

B16 said it might evoke moral concern because of a) a misunderstanding of what leads to child sexual abuse and b) a proper understanding that putting a person with homosexual inclinations into close community with a bunch of other men might not be a great idea. It would be like placing a 22-year-old heterosexual man in community with a bunch of young women. Yes, that might be cause for moral concern.

His words apply to all types of situations. Do we have evidence he said heterosexual evokes moral concern? Please show us.

Why discuss human sexuality at all? You have people in this thread who are married with children and have same-sex attraction. It’s an issue very much in the fore of the cultural mainstream. Asserting the Church’s position as clearly as possible while also providing a pastoral approach to helping those with homosexual inclinations is a pretty important thing. If you don’t think so, go look at all the young-to-middle aged people who either simply ignore the Church’s teaching on this issue or abandon Her altogether.

And your point is what? That everyone must hold to your position?

We need to get out in front of it and we need to do it yesterday. Jesus didn’t feel the need to tell prostitutes “well you know, what you’re doing is wrong.” No. He said that prostitutes and tax collectors were getting into the kingdom before allegedly good Jews. What hope that must have given those great sinners and what scandal that caused in His time! Imagine if the Holy Father said “there are surely homosexuals getting into heaven before people who worship in the extraordinary form and observe three-hour Eucharistic fasts.” I think this forum would literally implode.

This is misplaced and a type of deflection. I will let your words stand for others to see. They reveal much.

 

[njlisa]

I just found this on the Vatican’s website (I used Google Translate):

**PRESS CONFERENCE OF FRANCIS POPE IN RETURN FLIGHT FROM BRAZIL **(Sunday, July 28, 2013)

Patricia Zorzan:

Hablando en nombre de los brasileños. The sociedad has cambiado, los jóvenes han cambiado, vemos en Brasil y muchos jóvenes. Usted has no hablado sobre el abortion, marriage el mismo sexo entre personas of. En Brasil han aprobado a ley que el derecho Upgrade to abortion has permitido y el mismo sexo of marriage entre personas. ¿Por qué no hablado has sobre esto?

[Speaking on behalf of the Brazilians. Society has changed, young people have changed and you see so many young people in Brazil. She did not mention abortion, marriage between persons of the same sex. **In Brazil, a law was passed that extends the right to abortion and allowed marriage between persons of the same sex. Why did not talk about this?

]

Papa Francesco:

La Iglesia if he expresado perfectly New sobre eso ya. Not been necessary to volver sobre eso, still less Hable como sobre la estafa or mentira, or otras cosas, la iglesia en las cuales holds a doctrine clara.

The Church has already expressed this perfectly. It was not necessary to go back, as I have not even talked about the fraud, deceit or other things which the Church has a clear doctrine!]

Source

Thanks for posting the transcript. I’ll have to wait for this to come out in English.

 

[fix]

Are you going to backup the assertions you made earlier or not? I requested that you provide solid theology that demonstrates the comparative gravity of sodomy, fornication, adultery, etc etc etc. in Catholic Church teaching.

Can you do that or not? You should, as you have pointed out that other posters are incorrect on various items. You should provide solid backup if you are going to position yourself as arbiter of theology here, in light of a Pope’s statement.

The Pope commented on the Church’s moral theology tradition in the off the cuff interview? You are joking I hope?

 

[McCall1981]

Do not lose heart…God understands all and justice and understanding will come upon the earth in His good timing.

Thank you.

I’m hoping that over time these kinds of controversies will die down as Pope Francis learns what kinds of things set off the media. I don’t know how much more of this I can take

 

[CHRISTINE77]

When it comes to eating disorders, or drug addiction, or gossip, or self-hated, people are not encouraged to “bear these temptations in patient silence”. Nor to complain. But to talk, and in talking to receive help.

I’m not sure how homosexuality is different.

That’s how this society works, but it isn’t how a Christian is supposed to deal with his/her sins.

An eating disorder or drug addiction is actually the sin of gluttony.

When I stopped smoking, I prayed to God to help me over the addiction. I didn’t go to self-help groups and complain how I needed to be accepted as a smoker. And God did help me quit.

Same sex attraction is really the sin of lust. You should pray to God that you can stop lusting after men.

Gay pride is actually two sins - lust and pride.

As for bearing the cross in silence, that is what we are called to do as Christians, even though is is hard for us to do. Jesus did it for us.

 

[The_Bucket]

The context is not exclusively about evangelization. We are talking theology here. Why must the truth be separated from all else? Blasting that it is wrong to speak the truth will not bring back anyone. This entire thread is about misreading the Pope’s words by those with an agenda. The posts here bear that out well.

No, the context has shifted to that of evangelization. Aside from a couple of people many pages ago chiming in with some nonsense, you’ll see that no one here is disputing the notion that homosexual acts that are immoral and that the attraction, while not evil in and of itself, is indeed disordered.

This is your position? Does the Church agree with you that he is wrong about the gravity of Lust? I think not. I think that when the truth is shown to some people they prefer to deny it for various reason.

Am I disagreeing that lust is wrong? I’m saying that assigning degrees of sinfulness to what is already grave matter is pointless and not actually in the catechism.

His words apply to all types of situations. Do we have evidence he said heterosexual evokes moral concern? Please show us.

Why would heterosexuality in and of itself evoke moral concern? Other issues surrounding one’s sexuality could cause such concern though! Attachment to pornography, a long history of promiscuity, etc. Exercising caution because one is sexually disordered is fine. It’s not the same as saying such a person is committing evil or cannot be placed in a position of responsibility or is a second-class Christian.

This is misplaced and a type of deflection. I will let your words stand for others to see. They reveal much.

I stand on my words. And I stand by the fact that such a statement would probably be accurate. There’s plenty of examples to choose from of those who lived public lives of what appeared to be holiness when there was great evil simmering underneath. Marcial Maciel is a fine example of that.

 

[clem456]

The Pope commented on the Church’s moral theology tradition in the off the cuff interview? You are joking I hope?

Please don’t distort my comments. Thank you.

Can you post the theology, or can you not? Otherwise all you are doing is arguing.
Where is the Church’s comparison of the relative gravity of homosexual vs heterosexual sins?
Which brand of sexual sins causes my flesh to burn in hell to a greater degree, according to the Church? Which sin is going to cause the collapse of society more, in your opinion. (Actually we know your opinion on that already, can you back it up, or can you not?) Let’s talk seriously here, let’s not throw any more one line dismissives out.

Can you, or can you not, do it.

 

[McCall1981]

I just found this on the Vatican’s website (I used Google Translate):

**PRESS CONFERENCE OF POPE FRANCIS IN RETURN FLIGHT FROM BRAZIL **

Sunday, July 28, 2013

Patricia Zorzan:

[Speaking on behalf of the Brazilians. Society has changed, young people have changed and you see so many young people in Brazil. She did not mention abortion, marriage between persons of the same sex. **In Brazil, a law was passed that extends the right to abortion and allowed marriage between persons of the same sex. Why did not talk about this?

]

Papa Francesco:

The Church has already expressed this perfectly. It was not necessary to go back, as I have not even talked about the fraud, deceit or other things which the Church has a clear doctrine!]

Source

Yes this is great, thank you!

Here is the rest of the answer to the question:

Patricia Zorzan:

“But it is a topic that interests the young …”

Papa Francesco:

“Yes, but there was no need to talk about this, but the positive things that open the way to the boys. Is not it? In addition, young people know exactly what is the position of the Church!”

Patricia Zorzan:

“What is the position of Your Holiness, we can talk about it?”

Papa Francesco:

“That of the Church. I am the son of the Church!”

I love the last part there!

 

[livingwordunity]

PRESS CONFERENCE OF POPE FRANCIS IN RETURN FLIGHT FROM BRAZIL (Translation by Google Translate)

Sunday, July 28, 2013

Patricia Zorzan:

Speaking on behalf of the Brazilians. Society has changed, young people have changed and you see so many young people in Brazil. She did not mention abortion, marriage between persons of the same sex. In Brazil, a law was passed that extends the right to abortion and allowed marriage between persons of the same sex. Why did not talk about this?

Papa Francesco:

The Church has already expressed this perfectly. It was not necessary to go back, as I have not even talked about the fraud, deceit or other things which the Church has a clear doctrine!

Source

 

[The_Bucket]

That’s how this society works, but it isn’t how a Christian is supposed to deal with his/her sins.

An eating disorder or drug addiction is actually the sin of gluttony.

When I stopped smoking, I prayed to God to help me over the addiction. I didn’t go to self-help groups and complain how I needed to be accepted as a smoker. And God did help me quit.

Same sex attraction is really the sin of lust. You should pray to God that you can stop lusting after men.

Gay pride is actually two sins - lust and pride.

As for bearing the cross in silence, that is what we are called to do as Christians, even though is is hard for us to do. Jesus did it for us.

Congrats on stopping smoking, but keep in mind that you were not addicted to sin. Alcoholism, drug addiction, sex addiction… these are all sins. And it also involved tremendous deception. Smoking is a habit that’s out in the open. There’s no hiding it. Drug addicts, sex addicts, etc. tend to live in the darkness. We hid our addictions out of shame. Part of getting out of that pattern is by living lives of rigorous honesty and that includes connecting with other people.

You also misunderstand what the treatment of addiction entails. It does not entail self-victimization. By that I mean that I may have an addiction, but I have that addiction because of choices that I made. I don’t need to be “accepted” by society at large. I just need to be accepted in my brokenness by God. And good news! I am! What S-groups have helped me realize is that God already accepted me. It’s not about wallowing in helplessness and “woe is me, I’m an addict.” It’s taking responsibility for one’s actions, admitting that we sold our lives to the devil and asking God to take over our lives.

 

[Tigg]

No, your false charge is scandalous and drives people away from the Church who see false compassion and lukewarmness and laxism. You go from arguing theology to falsely accusing others because you cannot prove your position without emotion and rash judgment.

This reminds me of the movie Philadelphia which was particularly geared toward shaming us bigots into acceptance and tolerance. Fortunately, the lovers of truth are not fooled nor easily swayed.

 

[njlisa]

Yes this is great, thank you!

Here is the rest of the answer to the question:

Patricia Zorzan:

“But it is a topic that interests the young …”

Papa Francesco:

“Yes, but there was no need to talk about this, but the positive things that open the way to the boys. Is not it? In addition, young people know exactly what is the position of the Church!”

Patricia Zorzan:

“What is the position of Your Holiness, we can talk about it?”

Papa Francesco:

“That of the Church. I am the son of the Church!”

I love the last part there!

This is why it is premature to mistrust or criticize the Holy Father for a supposed lack of orthodoxy.

 

[One_point]

Just joined to comment on this matter. St Thomas Aquinas taught clearly about difference in gravity among the various sins of lust and gave the reasoning as to why. He has never been contradicted in any way on this matter in all the centuries of saints and theologians following him. Casually throwing around statements like “he was wrong on somethings” is quite careless in this context since the church has never ever said it about this part of his teaching in all the years of exhorting the summa. It is those who would dare pick an argument with Thomas with zero backing who need to check their own attitudes in my view. In the Catholic Church, when we’re discussing matters not explicitly/definitively taught, we look at what the fathers and the doctors said on it, and where they have spoken on it, we generally hold to it until church says otherwise, especially where there’s no contradictions among them and in this case, there isn’t a contradiction. One would do well to avoid casually dismissing our centuries’ old authorities on matters that the church has not contradicted them. If youre saying that st Thomas is wrong, it’s you who must show us how, and with some other authorities, not just your personal opinion. Otherwise, this is most imprudent and presumptuous to say the least. The relevant page on the summa in which the saint speaks on this is linked here: newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm#article12