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Prodigal_Son
Guest
This is what I’m asking, too.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Bucket,
Sorry, I just can’t back someone up who thinks that the APA bent to “political pressure” in ceasing characterizing homosexuality as a mental illness. Could it be that it’s, you know, not a mental illness?
I’m not saying that homosexual acts are OK. I’m not even saying that everyone who claims to have been “born gay” is actually telling the truth. It’s more likely that some are, some are not but their environment twisted them and some where it’s a combination of both. But your contentions and a small portion of Church discipline seems to be predicated on a false understanding of human sexuality.
I say discipline, not doctrine. I’m free to believe that this discipline is faulty and should be changed to a certain degree.
I’m not sure why the mental illness question matters. We’re talking about pastoral care to homosexuals, not about the causes of homosexuality. We all agree that homosexual attraction is morally disordered – whether it’s also psychologically disordered seems irrelevant to me.
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57thDimension
Guest
Re: Prudence
Contrary to popular belief, mental illness is not always easily spotted/identified.
A priest in my diocese once commented that men are concerned about entering into the priesthood because they might be thought to be homosexual. Why? Well, 25-60% of Catholic priests (depending on who you ask, of course) are thought to be homosexual, thus contributing to an image that is potentially more accurate than what some people would want.
+Sebastian
Jorm, Anthony F., et al. “Sexual orientation and mental health: results from a community survey of young and middle-aged adults.” The British Journal of Psychiatry 180.5 (2002): 423-427.
Fergusson, David M., et al. “Sexual orientation and mental health in a birth cohort of young adults.” Psychological Medicine 35.7 (2005): 971-982.
Oswalt, Sara B., and Tammy J. Wyatt. “Sexual orientation and differences in mental health, stress, and academic performance in a national sample of US college students.” Journal of homosexuality 58.9 (2011): 1255-1280.
Contrary to popular belief, mental illness is not always easily spotted/identified.
A priest in my diocese once commented that men are concerned about entering into the priesthood because they might be thought to be homosexual. Why? Well, 25-60% of Catholic priests (depending on who you ask, of course) are thought to be homosexual, thus contributing to an image that is potentially more accurate than what some people would want.
+Sebastian
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Prodigal_Son
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I thank my good colleague for giving you sources. I’m a philosopher, not a scientist, so I’ll offer an a priori source of my own…
Suppose there are 300 million Americans. Now, conservatively 3% have strong SSA, so that means that we have 9 million Americans with strong SSA. Now think about it. It’s hard to believe that more than 19 out of 20 of these would be sexually active with people of the same sex. (I know from my own case that it is not prohibitively difficult, if one has any self-control, to refrain from sex, so I expect significantly less than 19 out of 20 have been sexually active.)
This makes at least 450,000 people with strong SSA who have not acted out sexually with a person of the same sex. And this is a VERY conservative estimate. How many of those are Catholics? Hard to tell, but it’s definitely in the hundreds of thousands.
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opus101
Guest
It’s definitely relevant to the issue of admitting those with deep-seated homosexual tendencies to the Priesthood. Many are trying to make a false analogy (between a heterosexual priest who remains chaste and a homosexual priest who remains chaste), saying that, as long as there is celibacy/chastity, it doesn’t matter whether or not the priest is heterosexual or homosexual.Bucket,
I’m not sure why the mental illness question matters. We’re talking about pastoral care to homosexuals, not about the causes of homosexuality. We all agree that homosexual attraction is morally disordered – whether it’s also psychologically disordered seems irrelevant to me.
This document might shed some light on the situation for many, it is a very important read. It takes into account the affective difficulties of someone who experiences this tendency, and other common psychological factors as well. vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html
Those with deep-seated homosexual tendencies are not called to the priesthood for a variety of reasons, only one of them being SSA. However, they are called, along with the rest of us, to sanctity.
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poustiniak
Guest
I agree! Gays should be treated as if they are poor. The poverty of homosexuality is a question that has not being fully addressed. Homosexuality is a question of looking for love in the wrong place. When you thirst for water and go to a well that still has water in it but the rope cannot reach down far enough to bring back a bucket full of water what do you do. People call that well dry. Homosexuals are simply people that lower themselves down in the bucket with a cup in there hands and bring back a cup full of water and say that the well is not dry. There is still some love left in it. The problem with Homosexuality is that they are like Hippies. They have found a solution to the absence of love in the world and they propose that we should all do the same thing. When anyone in their right mind will say: Just let the well refill itself in good time and have a little faith. That is the mechanics of well building.
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57thDimension
Guest
Cochran, John K., et al. “Religion, religiosity, and nonmarital sexual conduct: An application of reference group theory.” Sociological Inquiry 74.1 (2004): 70-101.
Also an interesting read:
Hodge, David R. “Epistemological frameworks, homosexuality, and religion: How people of faith understand the intersection between homosexuality and religion.” Social Work 50.3 (2005): 207-218.
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BillieJane
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What I want to know is of the seven deadly sins …lust, greed, sloth, wrath (anger), gluttony, pride, and envy how can the Pope not declare the “lust” of homosexuality as sin? He makes it clear that the ACTS are sinful and condemned by the Church but the lust itself is also sin, isn’t it? 
As we already know it was Jesus who declared that the act of adultery was not simply the ACT of having sex with one who is not your spouse but the lust in your heart to do so.
As we already know it was Jesus who declared that the act of adultery was not simply the ACT of having sex with one who is not your spouse but the lust in your heart to do so.
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Glad2behome
Guest
…:crying:This tread brings me great and deep sorrow. The Church’s teaching is clear, those with SSA are children of God and are called to chastity. Homosexual acts are sinful just as heterosexual fornication.
The way some people are speaking, we would have not had a St. Austin. When St. Austin came to God, did his mother, St. Monica look at him with suspicion? Was he rejected as a Bishop becasue of his past and his struggle with lust?!
When I was in a Pentecostal Church, we had an altar call, which when persons are welcomed to come in front of the church, to pray, to proclaim that Jesus is their savoir, repentance of sin or whatever. There was one that proclaimed that he was going to try to stop sinning and proclaimed Jesus is his Lord and Savoir, and guess what? He was a homosexual. Did the church all of a sudden fall quite and did we start casting verbal stones?! NO
Sorry to sound angry, BUT WHEN SOMEONE WITH SSA PROCLAIMS THAT HE REPENTS OF SIN, TO CHANGE HIS LIFE AND WISHES TO COME TO CHURCH…WE SHOULD REJOICE!!!
I know some faithful persons with SSA that are some of the most faithful Catholics that I know and this is something that they STRUGGLE with DAILY.
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opus101
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If you read the Vatican document linked above, you will see that there is an exception for those who have experienced a transitory history involving homosexuality, and have repented and no longer experience anything “deep-seated”. I requires at least 3 years from the point of change to the entrance to seminary.
This tread brings me great and deep sorrow. The Church’s teaching is clear, those with SSA are children of God and are called to chastity. Homosexual acts are sinful just as heterosexual fornication.
The way some people are speaking, we would have not had a St. Austin. When St. Austin came to God, did his mother, St. Monica look at him with suspicion? Was he rejected as a Bishop becasue of his past and his struggle with lust?!
When I was in a Pentecostal Church, we had an altar call, which when persons are welcomed to come in front of the church, to pray, to proclaim that Jesus is their savoir, repentance of sin or whatever. There was one that proclaimed that he was going to try to stop sinning and proclaimed Jesus is his Lord and Savoir, and guess what? He was a homosexual. Did the church all of a sudden fall quite and did we start casting verbal stones?! NO
I haven’t read all of the posts here, but I don’t see any casting of stones. Just facts. But I have seen a bit of paranoia and some taking of offense when there has been no cause for it.
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Glad2behome
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youtube.com/watch?v=EvWEOpLLEso
Father John Zuhlsdorf homily could be used for this thread! And he is NO liberal or modernist!
Father John Zuhlsdorf homily could be used for this thread! And he is NO liberal or modernist!
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Glad2behome
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So, what about Saint Augustine who struggled with lust all of his life? Should the early Church have rejected him?
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opus101
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The name of the psychologist that I forgot earlier is Richard Fitzgibbons. Here is his letter to the U.S. Bishops. Very good read:orthodoxytoday.org/articles/FitzGibbonsOpenLetter.php
Here is an interview with him:narth.com/docs/tendencies.html
Here is an interview with him:narth.com/docs/tendencies.html
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Glad2behome
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And I know many persons with SSA that would NEVER harm a child. One person with SSA I know is his late 70’s and he has prayed to God, The Holy Family and to the Blessed Mother, EVER DAY FOR HOURS and he **still **has temptations!
If we compare SSA to alcoholism, which some people do, than SSA can never go away and those who have it will most likely always have it!
From Coruagerc.net( the approved apostle for those with SSA)
Does Courage force it’s members to try to change their orientation?
A. Courage members are under no obligation to try to develop heterosexual attractions, because there is no guarantee that a person will always succeed in such an endeavour. Courage’s aim is to help persons with same-sex attractions develop a life of interior chastity in union with Christ. If any of our members wish to go to professionals to explore the possibility of heterosexual development, we will stand by them, by helping them to keep the deepening of their Catholic faith and obedience to Christ as their first priority. Courage itself does not provide professional therapy. *Some *of our members have found varying levels of heterosexual development to be a by-product of living a chaste life for a period of time; however, the goal and focus of Courage remains a life of interior chastity, humility, and holiness, which can be achieved by all, with God’s grace.
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opus101
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Good. But there is no way to know that for sure, and statistics are clearly not on their side. It’s good that they would never harm a child. Unfortunately, the problem is that much of the abuse was not with children…they were basically inappropriate homosexual relations.
Not having a vocation to the Priesthood is not the end of the world. There are many fine heterosexual males who are not accepted as well. It is the Church who determines this, not the individual.
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opus101
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You need to read more of the posts in this thread than you have.
We’re not talking about struggling with same-sex attraction as a cross. We’re talking about deep-seated homosexual tendencies and the varied psychological geneses and common personality traits and affective immaturity that do not bode well for a priestly vocation.
You seem to be putting words in others’ mouths and reading more into the posts than is there.
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Glad2behome
Guest
No way to know for sure? Well, statistics can say anything. According to statistics, I would be dead by now becasue I was born a bastard to a mentally ill and drug addicted mother and I also being a minority. So, should I just turn myself before I commit a crime becasue according to statistics, I being a young minority and the situation I was born into, I will most likely mug someone on the street. Would you lock your doors if you see my walking down the street becasue according to statistics, I will most likely to be the one to break in.
And you still have not answered my question. Should have the early Church rejected St. Austin becasue of his past and his struggle with lust? Yes or No? I
youtu.be/EexABl2ORr4
I know that taking the Evangelical Protestant stance is “sexy” but that is not the CATHOLIC stance!
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Jeanne1184
Guest
Therein lies the crux of the problem. There isn’t anything ‘Naturally Good’ about hetero-sex either - if it’s ‘natural’, it’s of the animal nature. If the Holy Spirit directs one to procreate, the act can be made Holy, I’ve no doubt. But how many ask?
When God made children of Promise, His method was not to go a-humpin’ like animals to accomplish the blessed event. The usual single-mindedness of sex does not include God thoughts (unless one entertains blasphemy, that is).
“I am the owner of my shoulders, the tenant of my hips.” - Malcolm de Chazal
Until the heterosexual community at large gains clarity on their own enslavement to sex, they will continue to castigate others. Remove the plank from our own eyes…
Paul didn’t make celibacy a commandment for the obvious reason that to do so would guarantee heightened sexual sin - “Never say ‘No’ to the pharaoh.” He also knew that it requires the aid of the Holy Spirit to get and remain Chaste.
In the Book of Adam and Eve, it states that only Adam was, by God, unburdened completely of the sexual spirit. The rest of us must make use of the Gift of God through Jesus Christ to rise above this obsession - the Holy Spirit. His Grace is sufficient, from my experience.
We hear often that the path to Christ’s Kingdom is narrow and that few will find it, but so few actually believe He really means it.
The Holy Spirit helps immeasurably in our committment to become Chaste (and can’t be done to Christ’s standards without the Holy Spirit because we must Understand). However, the Holy Spirit will not come to Indwell until a person has become convinced of the Holiness of Chastity and the committment to remain so without reservation. To make room for The One, the Other must go - and keep watch at the gates of the flesh thereafter.
There is so much in the NT that we have no hope of Understanding, let alone Experiecing without this first step of Chastity in thought, word and deed. That if we Die to the flesh while still living, we need not fear the second death (the body) where we will be judged under the Law, and where Christ says we will have much to bear when the true content of our hearts are shown to us. If we aren’t willing to face it here, with the Holy Spirit, then we’ll face it alone on the other side.
Gospel of Thomas(84) Jesus said, “When you see your likeness, you rejoice. But when you see your images which came into being before you, and which neither die nor become manifest, how much you will have to bear!”
1 Peter 4:1-11 ESV
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God. **For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
((**And Paul thought the Gentiles were fully run-amok back then…guess we are still headed for the ‘fullness of the Gentiles’ to bring about the End, whatever that may look like - the ‘fullness of sin’; everything hidden in our depraved hearts, revealed. But when we aren’t self-governed by morals (from the outside) or the Holy Spirit (from the inside), we pass laws to make it legal and side-step our conscience - and go merrily along to damnation.))
Galatians 5:24 ESV - And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Romans 12:1 ESV - I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
“The honest cries of breaking hearts
Are better than a Hallelujah.” (Lyrics, Amy Grant)
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BroomWagon
Guest
No complaints here, I just don’t ever think I’ve seen the “Gospel of Thomas”, I assume the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas quoted in this manner.
gospelofthomasfullyinterpreted.com/logia-81-to-90
Interesting.
Also, not sure how one can be presumptuous about what St. Paul said about “celibacy”
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opus101
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You’re misinterpreting this whole thing and overreacting by leaps and bounds. No one is making the claims that you are reading into all of this.
The Church is not rejecting anyone, nor is anyone else doing so. These difficulties that are experienced by some are occasion for sanctity. Not being admitted to the priesthood is not a “rejection” by the Church…it is simply a sure sign that one’s role in the Church is in another area.
I’m a female, and can’t be a priest either. Is that rejection by the Church? Of course not! I have a different role.
The main thing is that we all become saints. We all have struggles. Some of our particular struggles cause us to be more suited to one state in life than another.
As far as St. Augustine is concerned, you are not saying anything different than what we’ve been saying, and what the Church has said…there is a possibility of a vocation to the priesthood for someone who has had past problems in this area as long as he has totally broken with it and has remained so for three years prior to application for the seminary. This may have changed recently in view of the abuse crisis, I’m not sure. But either way, it is not a reflection on the Christian dignity of those who have converted from a life of sin. We all sin. Christ came to save sinners. Amen. Alleluia.
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