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Catholic4Jesus
Guest
Uh huhNot true. Pope Francis came through here and was so disgusted that he decided not to post.
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Catholic4Jesus
Guest
Itās interesting how many anti-Catholics who donāt accept the legitimacy of Catholic prophecies and revelations such as the apparitions of our Lady turn around and use a prophecy that was never officially recognized by the Church and take it out of context and use it as ammunition against us.
āWell the Pope is the antichrist because your own prophecy says so.ā
You canāt be anti-Catholic and reject the legitimacy of Catholic prophecy and turn around and use a Catholic prophecy against the Church.
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chimo
Guest
They are afraid of the truth. If they start to believe it (I mean the approved apparitions) then they must take that decision to enter the Catholic Church. I sense it is going to take much more than an approved apparition to awaken them. They need to see an apparition. There are two ways to convert such people. Pray daily the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy so that will give God the permission to visit them and remember also that Jesus promised a great sign in the heavens for us in the Diary of St. Maria Faustina. Hopefully this sign may come in our lifetime. In the meanwhile we can rely on praying the Chaplet to give them this other sign.
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JReducation
Guest
I donāt understand why the tone from Catholics.
To a non-Catholic, Catholicism is interesting at best and insane at worst. The truth is on a continuum in between the two. Rather than take on a tone in our posts that denotes an āus and themā attitude, why not take on the tone of our popes? We have to seek unity in truth, but to do that, we must become friends. Unless weāre friends, itās very difficult to trust.
But if Catholics and non-Catholics have knee-jerk reactions at little things like this, how are we ever going to unify the Church?
Unity is the expression of love. Thatās why God gave us the sacrament of marriage, so that we would never forget how difficult and yet necessary it is to love.
Love tells me that I donāt have to have a knee-jerk reaction because a non-Catholic throws some prophecy at me. The prophecy is not a big deal and I donāt expect a non-Catholic to understand how the Church deals with these prophecies. Why should he understand?
In love, I just say āthere are these prophecies, but there does not seem to be any credible support for themā and I leave it at that. Then I invite the other person to Starbucks for coffee.
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Slaney
Guest
Well since the two papaās were singing from the same hymn sheet, hardly a sign of disunity, the Catholic Church isnāt separated from anyone, itās joined to Christ, anyone that isnāt joined to the Catholic Church isnāt totally joined to Christ !
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chimo
Guest
I think he was referring to those who deliberate attack the faith. That was my consensus. I donāt think most people could be converted through friendship until we all can within the Church achieve that type of status. It is good to pray for others. God can work faster than us. Not everyone has this ability to make friends anyway. The gift Jesus may be looking for from people who are not gifted in communicating with people is via prayer. I donāt believe we were not expressing to you with our few words what you think we are not doing. In my experience as an Orthodox it is not easy making friends as I have a very long commitment in teaching the young people of my parish. May be you do. Thatās good if you can do this. God bless you for doing this. But there is many ways in reaching out to others. Please understand I am concerned for your Church just as much as you are. I have brought much understanding to Catholics for over 30 years. And you are right that we need to do this one on one. But I was single back then and more available. It is not the same now. So I use prayer today as a means to reach more people then I could have done before. I am more committed now towards a different vocation.
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JReducation
Guest
Actually, the Church does not teach that those who are not joined the Catholic Church are not totally joined to Christ. The wording you may be looking for says that the Christian Church fully subsists in the Catholic Church. Then it goes on to speak about other faiths. In speaking about other Christians, the Church has always believed that those who are validly baptized are fully united to Christ through baptism, regardless of where they were baptized and by whom. Those who have never been baptized are united to Christ by those shadows of the truth that they know and to which they are faithful.
There is no partial union with Christ. There is a perfect and imperfect communion with the Church, which implies a perfect and imperfect union with Christ. But an imperfect union with Christ is not a partial union. Whatās missing is an element or elements of the truth, not pieces of Christ.
Prayer is very important in this whole process of unity. When I say friendship, Iām using the term the way that the Holy See uses it. The Holy See uses it to mean that attitude which is opposite to antagonism, condescension, and indifference toward the other person who is not a Catholic.
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Slaney
Guest
True which is what I said not **Totally United ** if something is missing (elements) then you arenāt totally unified to Christ or His Churchā¦
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JReducation
Guest
You donāt want to use those words ānot totally unitedā, because this term is used to express a mystical reality. The Church does not refer to this mystical reality when she speaks about perfect and imperfect communion. She is referring to something different.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
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Marie5890
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East_Anglican
Guest
Pope Francis is a Holy Spirit filled, humble servant of Jesus.
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Marie5890
Guest
I canāt help but wonder, how many Catholics are watching their shephard, and learning?
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Reuben_J
Guest
The Pope is always a big figure in Catholicism regardless of the intensity of the individual Catholics faith. They are bound to talk on the subject (of the Pope) ranging from just about anything on him. The personality of an individual Pope do always set the tone for the flock at large, knowingly or unknowingly, consciously or unconsciously. I believe a Pope affects the spiritual life of a reasonably practicing Catholics though I cannot say that for lapsed or Sunday Christian Catholics. But then again, we cannot underestimate the grace of God who calls us closer to him. He may use a good man to do that.
I canāt help but wonder, how many Catholics are watching their shephard, and learning?
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Slaney
Guest
What difference ? CCC 838 āThe Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.ā Those āwho believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.ā With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound āthat it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lordās Eucharist.ā
870 āThe sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confinesā(LG 8).
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JReducation
Guest
The difference is that the focus here is communion with the Church. The term that was used was used to imply an imperfect union with Christ. The Church cannot judge another personās union with Christ. She can only judge the union between the individual and the Church.
The expression that was used was ānot totally joined to Christ.ā We donāt know this. Only Christ knows this. For all we know the Methodist next door may be a saint while Iām walking on a tight rope. Do you see what I mean?
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Marie5890
Guest
(Bold is mine)
That is an interesting, and clearly, important distinction. And very appropriate for the Non-Catholic forums.
I had never really thought of it quite like that, one way or the other.
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Thomas_Casey
Guest
Now, taking the subject of unity among people of all faiths and Pope Francis, I think that people are in for some disappointment. Everyone is thinking that because this man has a different style he also has a different set of beliefs. WRONG!!!
His style of delivery is going to be different from his predecessors. Thatās good. Popes are not clones. The papacy is organic, not static. I grows and becomes what is needed for a particular time in history. Imagine if the pope of the 21st century were still living in Peterās world. That would not be very effectiveā¦ The Lord, in his eternal wisdom, gives popes gifts for the specific time in which they live and govern.
Pope Francis is very much a pope of Christian unity, as were Benedict, John Paul II, John Paul I, Paul VI, John XXIII , et al. But this does not mean that heās going to sacrifice truth to achieve unity. Such a measure is not unity. Itās compromise. There is a difference.
Unity is held together by the glue of truth and charity, not by compromise.
No, the pope is not going to tell the Anglicans that itās OK to have same sex marriages. Heās not going to tell the rest of the Protestant world that artificial birth control is OK. Nor is he going to say to Jews, that abortion is OK, if itās before the baby is born. OK, you can kick me. But I heard a Jewish scholar say this. I was born a Jew and I never heard of abortion after the baby is born. Iām not sure what medical book this chap was reading. Those are just the moral differences. Heās not going to negotiate, because you canāt negotiate on truth. He will try to explain the truth using his style and his language. Hopefully, it will be clearer for those he did not understand it when Pope Benedict explained it in a more scholarly style.
By the way, this does not mean that Pope Francis is not a scholar. The man has the same doctorate as Pope Benedict. The difference being that Pope Benedict spend his life doing theology and Pope Francis has been involved in religious life and pastoral care.
The point is that yes, non-Catholics can be close to Christ. We have no way of telling. At the same time, because we know that it is possible for them to be closer to Christ than some Catholics, it does not change the fact that murder is murder. An abortion is always murder. That non-Catholic who is closer to Christ than I am is not the one who is at risk for abortion. The one at risk for abortion is the one who buys into the lies the society tells him about pregnancy and life.
We can go on to doctrinal issues and say the same thing. There are truths that are not negotiable, such as Mary is ever virgin. Pope Francis is not going to budge on that point. He will listen respectfully to the Protestant and non Christian who has an opinion on this point. He will gently and intelligently explain why this is true.
His style of delivery is going to be different from his predecessors. Thatās good. Popes are not clones. The papacy is organic, not static. I grows and becomes what is needed for a particular time in history. Imagine if the pope of the 21st century were still living in Peterās world. That would not be very effectiveā¦ The Lord, in his eternal wisdom, gives popes gifts for the specific time in which they live and govern.
Pope Francis is very much a pope of Christian unity, as were Benedict, John Paul II, John Paul I, Paul VI, John XXIII , et al. But this does not mean that heās going to sacrifice truth to achieve unity. Such a measure is not unity. Itās compromise. There is a difference.
Unity is held together by the glue of truth and charity, not by compromise.
No, the pope is not going to tell the Anglicans that itās OK to have same sex marriages. Heās not going to tell the rest of the Protestant world that artificial birth control is OK. Nor is he going to say to Jews, that abortion is OK, if itās before the baby is born. OK, you can kick me. But I heard a Jewish scholar say this. I was born a Jew and I never heard of abortion after the baby is born. Iām not sure what medical book this chap was reading. Those are just the moral differences. Heās not going to negotiate, because you canāt negotiate on truth. He will try to explain the truth using his style and his language. Hopefully, it will be clearer for those he did not understand it when Pope Benedict explained it in a more scholarly style.
By the way, this does not mean that Pope Francis is not a scholar. The man has the same doctorate as Pope Benedict. The difference being that Pope Benedict spend his life doing theology and Pope Francis has been involved in religious life and pastoral care.
The point is that yes, non-Catholics can be close to Christ. We have no way of telling. At the same time, because we know that it is possible for them to be closer to Christ than some Catholics, it does not change the fact that murder is murder. An abortion is always murder. That non-Catholic who is closer to Christ than I am is not the one who is at risk for abortion. The one at risk for abortion is the one who buys into the lies the society tells him about pregnancy and life.
We can go on to doctrinal issues and say the same thing. There are truths that are not negotiable, such as Mary is ever virgin. Pope Francis is not going to budge on that point. He will listen respectfully to the Protestant and non Christian who has an opinion on this point. He will gently and intelligently explain why this is true.
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Slaney
Guest
Yes the Church cannot judge another persons union with Christ, but what about Excommunication ? Individuals judge people, not their souls but their actions, I mean an abortion provider, a baby butcher, dissecting babies from their mothers bodies can hardly be seen as be in good standing with Christ. And I know, even the most heinous sinner can be reconciled to Christ !
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JReducation
Guest
Humanae Vitaeās position is very clear on this. Any deliberate assault on human life and human dignity is always OBJECTIVELY a grave sin and can never be justified.
This means that the act is heinous, but the culpability of the person may range from full to none at all. It depends on several fine points in moral theology.
Excommunication is not always about sin. One can be excommunicated without committing a sin. There are seven instances in which one is excommunicated by the law itself. The Church needs to do nothing. Beyond that, the bishop and the pope can excommunicate you if he does not like the color of your toothbrush.
If itās a bishop who does the excommunicating, Rome has to uphold it. If itās Rome doing the excommunicating, your dead in the water. There is no one higher to whom you can appeal.
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