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geezerbob
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Jesus is the judge of all men, genotob, not you. Also, your statement is in direct contradiction to what is contained in the CCC.
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Walt_Oliver
Guest
WARNING
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The rules of this forum require that respect be shown to all religions. Failure to comply may have an adverse effect on your posting and/or membership privileges.
Thank you for cooperation.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Reminds me of when I was a boy, sitting still in the barn with a .22.:yup: And it certainly brought them out of their holes didn’t it.
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vern_humphrey
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Reminds me of when I was a boy, sitting still in the barn with a .22.
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Eireann
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Ok, anyway it don’t matter what the Pope says to some, they will always find something to nit-pick about, like vultures waiting in the wings ready to pounce at the first chance.
He’s in a no win situation, but I read the book and in the end God wins.
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Eireann
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CCC 2104 “All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it.” This duty derives from "the very dignity of the human person."
** It does not contradict a “sincere respect” for different religions which frequently “reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men,” nor the requirement of charity, which urges Christians “to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are in error or ignorance with regard to the faith.”**
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Fair enough - but: suppose he had not faced toward Mecca: he would have been acting with singularity - that is, been making a spectacle of himself. Muslims may or may not be aware of singularity or of something equivalent in Islam - but, he would by Catholic standards (even* if* not by theirs) have been drawing attention to himself; which would have been
- very discourteous to his hosts
- entirely out of place in a house of worship (one which is important to them, even if not to him)
- and, completely pointless: he would have likely caused offence, if not to his hosts then to the Turkish public; which would be tolerable (though not desirable) provided that it was possible to achieve some good by not facing Mecca. But what good would not doing so have achieved ?
- **Since he is the earthly visible head of a different religion, the presumption has to be that he was not intending to undermine his own religion; and this presumption is supported by his previous acts as Pope: we aren’t talking about an honest-to-God five-star abomination like the Assisi meetings.
** - No Pope is at liberty to dishonour the Faith by his conduct, of course - any more than any of us is. And facing toward Mecca is of itself a neutral act - it has to be interpreted by the circumstances in which it occurs. For him to face Mecca, does not mean he was dishonouring the Faith unless there are circumstances apart from that bodily action which strongly suggest he intended to dishonour the Faith. Without such circumstances, & without evidence that those other circumstances strongly suggest that he intended that, there is no reason to take that bodily action of turning to Mecca as evidence of anything untoward. For even Popes are entitled not to have their actions judged harshly, if they can plausibly be judged favourably.
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maggieodae
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Yep! Or aiming a shotgun at the barn door.Reminds me of when I was a boy, sitting still in the barn with a .22.
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GordonBOPS
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What’ does it matter if he was also facing Jerusalem?? I’ve seen that point raised several times. The other thing that confuses me, is (and I need help to understand this), isn’t Mecca technically in EVERY direction - I mean, on a globe you can draw a straight line to any point on that globe.
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genotob
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You need to read it one more time. Do you believe that going to church to visit God “is a senseless act which modern man rightfully rejects” You must be a “modern” man.
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AJV
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A few years back, due to great confusion on the matter of where to face for Mecca, since different mullahs and imams were prescibing different directions, they came up with a system a little like longitude but centered on Mecca and it was basically shortest distance is the direction you face. I have no idea whether all the mosques in America adopted it, but it was explained to us.
And for my $0.02: I think it was a pretty mean trick to suddenly spring something like that. The mufti probably is not so stupid as to not know the reaction if say, he turned and the Pope didn’t. He would have possibily made a few comments on that too.
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jimmy
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Many popes have committed blasphemy. Honorius was one who was a heretic. Heresy is blasphemy. There have been horible popes.Oh my yes, that would be awful alright. I do not know what religion you follow, but Catholics believe the Pope is protected by the power of the Holy Spirit from committing blasphemy.
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jimmy
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The popes actions are very imprudent. They cause negative perceptions and the pope is responsible for the perception of what he does. It appears that he is doing something pagan, even though he is not. People will percieve it as praying toward mecca.
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GordonBOPS
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After viewing the video - I do see that its much less an issue than the press made it sound. He was walking along, the guy stopped and they prayed… its not as though the Pope purposefully stopped and turned to Mecca as if to say he, Christians, look I turned to face Mecca. Under the circumstances, it was the right thing…if not the only thing. Its not like God ISN"T in Mecca, or anywhere else in the Universe.
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Kendy
Guest
I am not a vulture. I do not hate the pope. I happen to love him very much. I am just not comfortable with this action. I am certain that he knows better than me, but I am wary of this interfaith stuff.
I just started reading an encyclical published in the late 19th century, and it again, reminded me of how bold catholics used to be in proclaiming their faith. Now, we are all afraid of proclaiming the truth lest we offend someone.
I just don’t think all this interfaith prayer is a good idea. I don’t want to pray with people who don’t believe in Jesus, and I am sad that the pope feels differently.
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Kendy
Guest
Why was he there during their prayer time to begin with? I don’t like praying with non-christian so I avoid situations where I would have to be rude.Fair enough - but: suppose he had not faced toward Mecca: he would have been acting with singularity - that is, been making a spectacle of himself. Muslims may or may not be aware of singularity or of something equivalent in Islam - but, he would by Catholic standards (even* if* not by theirs) have been drawing attention to himself; which would have been
- very discourteous to his hosts
- entirely out of place in a house of worship (one which is important to them, even if not to him)
- and, completely pointless: he would have likely caused offence, if not to his hosts then to the Turkish public; which would be tolerable (though not desirable) provided that it was possible to achieve some good by not facing Mecca. But what good would not doing so have achieved ?
- **Since he is the earthly visible head of a different religion, the presumption has to be that he was not intending to undermine his own religion; and this presumption is supported by his previous acts as Pope: we aren’t talking about an honest-to-God five-star abomination like the Assisi meetings.
- No Pope is at liberty to dishonour the Faith by his conduct, of course - any more than any of us is. And facing toward Mecca is of itself a neutral act - it has to be interpreted by the circumstances in which it occurs. For him to face Mecca, does not mean he was dishonouring the Faith unless there are circumstances apart from that bodily action which strongly suggest he intended to dishonour the Faith. Without such circumstances, & without evidence that those other circumstances strongly suggest that he intended that, there is no reason to take that bodily action of turning to Mecca as evidence of anything untoward. For even Popes are entitled not to have their actions judged harshly, if they can plausibly be judged favourably.
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TradyDaddy
Guest
Read the entire Chapter of Acts Chap 17 folks… you will find that Paul did NOT pray with the pagans to false gods. On the contrary, he went on to tell them about the true God, Jesus Christ.You might want to study Paul a bit more than.
When Paul went to Athens, he was greatly distressed by their idolatry, their sin of unbelief, and the temples that were all over the city. Paul was not happy about their idols, but he finds something about them that he can respect. “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious, for as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship…(Acts 17:22-23.
BTW…If you see your spouse out with another man/women this evening, I suppose you will all just be able to control your tempers and think pleasant thoughts about how he/she is just showing “respect” to that other person and I’m sure he/she is really thinking of you while showing that affection that is supposed to be directed to you alone.
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Grace_Angel
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geezerbob
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Since Muslims profess to worship the God of Abraham, I don’t think they would be considered pagans.
Where do you find any indication that the pope prayed to a false god? That is a horrible thing to imply. For shame.
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Ghosty
Guest
I’m glad someone mentioned this. Praying towards Jerusalem, especially in the Liturgy, is a traditional Catholic practice. In fact, it wouldn’t suprise me in the least if the Muslims took the practice of praying towards Mecca from the Catholic practice of praying towards Jerusalem, just as they took the prostrations in prayer from the Oriental Catholic traditions.Well, don’t get too flapped.
Pope Benedict/ aka Cardinal Ratzinger and restoring “Facing East”
And then there is the fact that Islam, which came along 600 years after Christ, has always had elements of Christianity they claim as their own. They are the one’s imitating us as reguards to facing East…not the other way around.
That the media doesn’t understand the significance of praying towards Jerusalem and rather associates it with praying towards Mecca shouldn’t be suprising. I am a bit suprised at the reaction of Catholics to it, especially since so many here argue for a return to praying “ad orientem” in the Mass, which literally means “towards the East”, NOT “facing away from the congregation” (orientem is related to the English word Oriental).
Praying towards the East is our Catholic tradition. That being said, it’s quite possible and likely that this wasn’t even the intention of the Pope. He was likely just praying with others, and happened to be facing East towards Mecca.
Peace and God bless!
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