Pope hits out at feminist radicals

[redkim]

ricatholic:

Radicalism does affect society, the most radical of all was Jesus and His concepts about the inherent value of every person.

As for women leaving the church because they perceive it to be sexist, what would ever give them that idea?

Peace

First off, Christ didn’t lead people away from the Church or from God. Quite the contrary, so it is not accurate to equate Christ’s radicalism with radical feminism.

And what would give women the idea that the Church was sexist? Radical feminism. It leads them away and leads them into thinking that “difference” is bad.

 

[ricatholic]

redkim:

First off, Christ didn’t lead people away from the Church or from God. Quite the contrary, so it is not accurate to equate Christ’s radicalism with radical feminism.

And what would give women the idea that the Church was sexist? Radical feminism. It leads them away and leads them into thinking that “difference” is bad.

I didn’t equate Jesus with feminism, I compared his actions and teachings to the status quo of the time and the obvious conclusion was that Jesus was executed because His ideas were too radical to the authorities.

As for sexism in the church, do you think that some of the actions of the church are sexist in nature and not really based on what can be gleened from the gospels about how Jesus treated and trusted women and took them into His full confidence?

Do you think that the insistence of some who think women do not even deserve to be anywhere near the altar is an indication of how Jesus valued women? Do you feel that the way the Vatican panders to some groups that feel that women do not even deserve to enter through the same doors as men is an indication of a sexist leaning?

The church has not perfected a way to make its leaders act in a way that is totally congruent with how Jesus wanted us all to act, and in some ways those actions do touch upon areas that result in a sexist bias. To admit such doesn’t mean we are worshiping in the wrong place, it just means we can be doing a better job of being followers of Jesus.

This is not an all or nothing proposition, the staus of women in general has undergone a profound change in the church. They are no longer chattel. Until the last few centuries, there was not even a thought of them being equal partners in the sacrement of marriage.

The church is not a victim of feminism. It may be an object of scorn for some, but if the standard is what Jesus taught and how He acted toward women, the church still has a ways to go before it is acting as He did.

Peace

 

[redkim]

ricatholic:

I didn’t equate Jesus with feminism, I compared his actions and teachings to the status quo of the time and the obvious conclusion was that Jesus was executed because His ideas were too radical to the authorities.

I didn’t say you were equating Jesus with feminism. I said you were equating His radicalism with feminist radicalism, as if they were both equally good.

As for sexism in the church, do you think that some of the actions of the church are sexist in nature and not really based on what can be gleened from the gospels about how Jesus treated and trusted women and took them into His full confidence?

No.

Do you think that the insistence of some who think women do not even deserve to be anywhere near the altar is an indication of how Jesus valued women? Do you feel that the way the Vatican panders to some groups that feel that women do not even deserve to enter through the same doors as men is an indication of a sexist leaning?

Well, I’ve never heard of such extremes. The only things I’ve heard really are no women priests and no girl altar servers. I don’t consider those positions sexist or devaluing women.

The church has not perfected a way to make its leaders act in a way that is totally congruent with how Jesus wanted us all to act, and in some ways those actions do touch upon areas that result in a sexist bias. To admit such doesn’t mean we are worshiping in the wrong place, it just means we can be doing a better job of being followers of Jesus.

We can always do a better job of following Christ, but to say that some institutional policies are sexist is wrong. I do not doubt that there are some sexists in the Church because there are in all facets of life. But the Church, as an institution, is not sexist.

This is not an all or nothing proposition, the staus of women in general has undergone a profound change in the church. They are no longer chattel. Until the last few centuries, there was not even a thought of them being equal partners in the sacrement of marriage.

And that’s a shift not just in religion, but culturally as well.

The church is not a victim of feminism. It may be an object of scorn for some, but if the standard is what Jesus taught and how He acted toward women, the church still has a ways to go before it is acting as He did.

Peace

As an institution, the Church acts fine towards women. People in the institution, however, may have individual sexist attitudes, but you will find that in all walks of life.

 

[misericordie]

Minerva:

I’m glad that the letter did not condemn mothers who work outside the home and even called for women to have equal access to the professional world. Too many conservative Catholics, including some on these boards, are very quick to condemn any deviation from 1950s gender roles. It’s nice to see the Pope not take this path

Now, now, lets not forget(I worked in a Catholic Parish School where this always happened to me) that there are radical anti-men feminists who love to man bash. Yes, I am in favor of women who are faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, and orthodoxy in the professional world. However, especially in any Catholic School, or diocesan chancery office, please Lord, keep these radical anti-men, priest want- a bees- away from those locations.
I remember the radical feminists who were teachers last year at the school where I taught religion(Parrochial catholic school grades K-8). In the mornings at the faculty room, while I was silently studying my lessons, they would men bash and I was right there!!! "oh, look, this copy machine is never working, “just like all men.” Comments like those I had to listen to day in and day out, and I could not go to another room, it was the FACULTY room. Now, can you imagine if it was all men making those comments against women in a Catholic School? By the way, she the principal did not care, she heard it as well as I did all the time, her office was and is in the back of the faculty room.:nope:

 

[misericordie]

Minerva:

redkim,

I spent alot of time with conservative Catholics for several years and they spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing about things like “authentic femininity” gender roles, working moms, the threat of feminism, etc, etc.

I know you are not saying women have to stay home, but plenty of conservative Catholics, including a lot on this site, do say that very thing. From personal experience, I can tell you that working mothers are sneered at in many conservative Catholic circles.

As for the studies that show SAHM familes are happier, could you please cite a source for this? Frankly I doubt one can have an objective study on this issue because both sides are so passionate about their view. In my own experience I haven’t perceived any difference in SAHM and working mom families. I know well-adjusted children with working mothers and messed up brats with SAHMs. And vice versa. I think the happiness of a family more depends on the moral values the parents impart to their kids, how important GOd is in the family, and also whether the parents are doing what they want to do. If a woman is a SAHM and loves it, then most likely her kids will be happy too. If she’s a SAHM but doesn’t want to be, that’s going to trickle down and have negative effects on her kids. Same with working moms. Every family is different, which is why one-size-fits-all gender roles make no sense.

Let me guess, you don’t like “conservative” catholics. Well, what you here term “conservative”(those terms don’t apply to the Church, those are political terms) Catholics are Catholics that Follow and defend all of the Church’s official teachings. hence=catholic. A catholic that follows the church’s official teachings on all things is=Catholic. One who disregards the Church’s teachings here and there, are called non-catholics because in the complete sense of the word catholic, it is denoted that is a member of the church, which follows the teachings of the church.
Why do some still negate that there are anti-men feminists and these are the same ones that desire (they dream) to become priests? I remember I was telling a great theologian (S.T.D. from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome: a doctor of theology) who is a priest and is a good friend of mine, that a woman I know always brings the issue that she deserves to be a priest, no matter what the pope says, and that she gets angry if one defends the current stance of the Church on this, Father’s face became red in anger and told me: “the next time she harrases you with the same issue, and that she deserves to be a priest, and she again asks you, why she can’t be a priest, tell her: !You can’t be a priest because you don’t have…”
Anyway, the issue in the Pope’s current letter on modern feminism is, yes, there should be equal rights of both men and women, and that women have the right to professions, education, etc, but not at the cost that they will men bash, and desire to not be equal, but superior then men. The document says to do that in any of the two men or women, is bad. Equality, not superiority.

 

[misericordie]

redkim:

I have no idea. I don’t know any women in the Archdiocese of NY. And since I don’t know them, I can’t say what their politics are and so I cannot call them ultra-feminist or not.

As to who will try and implement what the Vatican says: I’m not sure anyone can implement it except individual women. Certainly our priests and bishops can encourage it from the pulpit, but I don’t think it’s anything that can be enforced.

Yes, well, I do know plenty in the Archdiocese of New York’s headquarters, and gee are they feminists(talking in general: Catechetical office, education office).

 

[redkim]

miseri:

You must run into a lot more radical feminists than I do. I’ve never actually met a woman who desired to be a priest or who consistently male bash. I guess I must live in a little bit more of a traditional area than you do.