Pope hopes for more 'widespread, incisive' feminine presence [CNA]

[CNA_News]

Vatican City, Jan 25, 2014 / 10:39 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Francis met with a group of Italian women today, expressing his desire for women to participate more widely in the Church and in society without neglecting the family.

”I have been pleased to see many women share some pastoral responsibilities with priests in accompanying people, families, and groups, (just) as in theological reflection; and I hope that more spaces are widened for a feminine presence in the Church that is more widespread and incisive,” he said on Jan. 25 to members of the “Centro Italiano Femminile,” a women's group founded to promote democracy in Italy based on respect for the human person and Christian principles.

”These new spaces and responsibilities that are open, and that I vividly hope can further expand to the presence and activity of women, as much in the ecclesial sphere as in that of civil and professional, can not make us forget the irreplaceable role of women in the family,” Pope Francis emphasized.

Women’s particular qualities of sensitivity toward other people “represent not only a genuine strength for the lives of families, for the irradiation of a climate of serenity and harmony, but a reality without which the vocation human would not be able to be realized.”

Thus, urged the Pope, it is important that women be involved in both the public and domestic sphere. In fact, he said, one influences the other.

”If in the world of work and in the public sphere, a more incisive contribution by the feminine genius is important, this contribution remains essential in the environment of the family, which for us Christians is not simply a private place, but that of the “domestic Church,” whose health and prosperity are the conditions for the health and prosperity of the Church and of society itself.”

Particularly in recent decades, the Pontiff acknowledged, “the identity and role of woman, in the family, in society, and in the Church, have experienced significant changes, and in general the participation and the responsibility of women has grown.”

While this is a positive development, the changes in women’s roles raise new issues, he noted.

”At this point the question arises: how you can grow in the effective presence of many areas of the public sphere, in the world of work and in places where the most important decisions are adopted, and at the same time maintain a presence and preferential attention and everything unique in and for the family?”

The Pope’s answer to the question of work-life balance hinged on the virtue of prudence: “here is the field of discernment which, in addition to reflection on the reality of women in society, requires constant prayer and perseverance.”

Because each woman has different circumstances, she must “always seek anew to respond to the Lord, in her concrete conditions,” through “dialogue with God, illuminated by his word, irrigated by the grace of the sacraments.”

Pope Francis also encouraged the women to turn to Mary as an example.

”She, who cares for her divine Son, has gained his first miracle at the wedding at Cana, she who was also present on Calvary and at Pentecost, indicates to us the way to go to better understand the meaning and role of women in society and to be totally faithful to the Lord Jesus and to your mission in the world.”

Full article…

 

[Darryl1958]

Honestly, I don’t think women’s participation is nearly as much of a problem as men’s lack of participation is. In many parishes, and especially among young people, I wouldn’t doubt that among regular church goers, women outnumber men by a ratio approaching two to one. In every area of participation, from altar girl to organization of church events, women are the ones stepping in to fill those roles.

 

[TCEL]

Honestly, I don’t think women’s participation is nearly as much of a problem as men’s lack of participation is. In many parishes, and especially among young people, I wouldn’t doubt that among regular church goers, women outnumber men by a ratio approaching two to one. In every area of participation, from altar girl to organization of church events, women are the ones stepping in to fill those roles.

I admit I had the same reaction. I guess it also depends on the parish. Perhaps this is more of a cultural difference between North America and other countries?

 

[ProVobis]

Honestly, I don’t think women’s participation is nearly as much of a problem as men’s lack of participation is. In many parishes, and especially among young people, I wouldn’t doubt that among regular church goers, women outnumber men by a ratio approaching two to one. In every area of participation, from altar girl to organization of church events, women are the ones stepping in to fill those roles.

There’s an interesting book on this very topic: Podles’ “The Church Impotent, The Feminization of Christianity.”

Goes quite some time back in history.

 

[Tomdstone]

There’s an interesting book on this very topic: Podles’ “The Church Impotent, The Feminization of Christianity.”

Goes quite some time back in history.

Does Podles have an axe to grind?

 

[ProVobis]

Does Podles have an axe to grind?

It was written in 1999, so I don’t think it’s against the last two Popes, if it is at all.

 

[Miserissima]

From the Amazon reviews, it looks to be about how the the wimmin folk took over the pews.

Atlantic Monthly once did an article called The Year of Two Popes, regarding John Paul II and Benedict.

I would like very much to find a follow up article on Benedict and Francis, or just Francis, of that caliber.

 

[RPRPsych]

There’s an interesting book on this very topic: Podles’ “The Church Impotent, The Feminization of Christianity.”

Goes quite some time back in history.

That sounds like the socialist psychologist Erich Fromm: “The rise of the Marian cult within Christianity represented the triumph of the feminine over the Father-God Yahweh.”

Sounds like questionable doctrine to me. The Church is certainly not impotent. If some people (Kirk Cameron anyone!) want Catholic saints and preachers to be more “macho”, sorry, they’re not getting their wish. Let’s not confuse pagan ideas of “virility” with the one true Church.

 

[RPRPsych]

Does Podles have an axe to grind?

He’s a macho, macho man.

 

[ProVobis]

That sounds like the socialist psychologist Erich Fromm: “The rise of the Marian cult within Christianity represented the triumph of the feminine over the Father-God Yahweh.”

Sounds like questionable doctrine to me. The Church is certainly not impotent. If some people (Kirk Cameron anyone!) want Catholic saints and preachers to be more “macho”, sorry, they’re not getting their wish. Let’s not confuse pagan ideas of “virility” with the one true Church.

I really don’t see the big deal over this. Nuns have (or had) been effectively running parishes and parish schools for a long time. In a few circles mothers are home schooling their kids. (Is the loss of religious life and more mothers pursuing the workforce the real underlying issue here?)

OTOH, stats show that father’s influence over their kids’ long term commitment to the Church attendancewise far supercedes that of the mother. This data is readily available through search engines. So I don’t know where we’re going with these “axe to grind” arguments.

 

[RPRPsych]

I really don’t see the big deal over this. Nuns have (or had) been effectively running parishes and parish schools for a long time. In a few circles mothers are home schooling their kids. (Is the loss of religious life and more mothers pursuing the workforce the real underlying issue here?)

OTOH, stats show that father’s influence over their kids’ long term commitment to the Church attendancewise far supercedes that of the mother. This data is readily available through search engines. So I don’t know where we’re going with these “axe to grind” arguments.

You’re right. It’s just that that Podles’ criticism, coming in terms couched so close to Fromm’s (Fromm is no friend of the Catholic Church - he was a communist sympathizer) concerns me, and makes me wonder what the fuss is all about.

The Church certainly has its troubles, but I doubt they can be reduced to “we’re not manly enough”. That falls flush into the neo-pagan, neo-Darwinian, “Iron John”, “hunt and kill” New Age ideology that some self-professed gurus have been peddling.

Jesus Christ was the manliest Man of them all in my opinion. Our standard of manhood should be Him and His Apostles - not some distorted pop-culture version.

 

[TCEL]

Jesus Christ was the manliest Man of them all in my opinion. Our standard of manhood should be Him and His Apostles - not some distorted pop-culture version.

I agree! Just like, as a woman, I know I have so many role models and examples. I don’t feel left out. I mean, we belong to a Church that is accused both of not honoring women enough, and at other times, of worshipping one!

 

[RPRPsych]

I agree! Just like, as a woman, I know I have so many role models and examples. I don’t feel left out. I mean, we belong to a Church that is accused both of not honoring women enough, and at other times, of worshipping one!

Absolutely.

Through Christ, Mary, and the Communion of Saints, the Church has role models to spare, and spiritual treasures, for both genders. She is alone among the various churches of the world (except perhaps the Orthodox - I like their tradition of a Saint Photini) in offering this to the men and women who belong to her.

 

[Darryl1958]

There’s an interesting book on this very topic: Podles’ “The Church Impotent, The Feminization of Christianity.”

Goes quite some time back in history.

It sounds like a very original and provocative case.
There is a point that if men who are no longer being Christianized in the pews, or are being alienated in Christianity from their masculine identity, then that masculine identity cannot help but seek out expression along non-Christian paths.

podles.org/church-impotent.htm

BOOK DESCRIPTION
After documenting the highly feminized state of Western Christianity, Dr. Podles identifies the masculine traits that once characterized the Christian life but are now commonly considered incompatible with it. In an original and challenging account, he traces this feminization to three contemporaneous medieval sources: the writings of St. Bernard of Clairvaux, the rise of scholasticism, and the expansion of female monasticism. He contends that though masculinity has been marginalized within Christianity, it cannot be expunged from human society. If detached from Christianity, it reappears as a substitute religion, with unwholesome and even horrific consequences. The church, too, is diminished by its emasculation. Its spirituality becomes individualistic and erotic, tending toward universalism and quietism. In his concluding assessment of the future of men in the church, Dr. Podles examines three aspects of Christianity-initiation, struggle, and fraternal love-through which its virility might be restored.

In the otherwise stale and overworked field of “gender studies,” The Church Impotent is the only book to confront the lopsidedly feminine cast of modern Christianity with a profound analysis of its historical and sociological roots. Dr. Podles presents the fruit of his meticulous scholarship in a lucid and readable style thoroughly accessible to the non-specialist.

Anyway, agree or disagree with Poples, so far everybody so far does not seem to know what the pope might be getting at.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

This I think is the important point for us all to remeber:

The Pope’s answer to the question of work-life balance hinged on the virtue of prudence: “here is the field of discernment which, in addition to reflection on the reality of women in society, requires constant prayer and perseverance.”

Because each woman has different circumstances, she must “always seek anew to respond to the Lord, in her concrete conditions,” through “dialogue with God, illuminated by his word, irrigated by the grace of the sacraments.”

 

[RPRPsych]

It sounds like a very original and provocative case.
There is a point that if men who are no longer being Christianized in the pews, or are being alienated in Christianity from their masculine identity, then that masculine identity cannot help but seek out expression along non-Christian paths.

podles.org/church-impotent.htm

The language of “potent” and “impotent” sits oddly with discussion of the Catholic Church. It is the language of the pagan cult of the body. If we are looking for male reproductive organs in religion, Hinduism and totemism are still around.

And to attack Scholasticism for “emasculating” the Church - in the light of encyclicals like Aeterni Patris - is borderline heretical. St. Thomas Aquinas must be turning over in his grave.

Anyway, agree or disagree with Poples, so far everybody so far does not seem to know what the pope might be getting at.

I think he wants women to participate in the Church as women - not as “womenpriests” or as “women’s rights activists”. He wants them to be latter-day versions of Martha and Mary of Bethany.

 

[TCEL]

The language of “potent” and “impotent” sits oddly with discussion of the Catholic Church. It is the language of the pagan cult of the body. If we are looking for male reproductive organs in religion, Hinduism and totemism are still around.

Well, I don’t think we should be too hard on the fellows here. This is a complete guess on my part, but I’m going to assume I don’t know as much about paganism as you do. But, I don’t appreciate it when some ideologies and such try to diminish my potential for bearing life, and make it out to be something less than the awe-inspiring mystery it is. It makes me feel cheapened. Neither does that mean I feel like my only value is in my potential to bear life. I guess balance is what’s needed.

 

[RPRPsych]

Well, I don’t think we should be too hard on the fellows here. This is a complete guess on my part, but I’m going to assume I don’t know as much about paganism as you do.

I was half-joking - poking fun at a modern disease, really: the tendency to view Christianity through a non-Christian less. Thus, for example, the OF is “feminine” and the EF “manly”; Catholics are “liberal” or “conservative”; and so forth. Applying those terms to the Church is what philosophers would call a category error.

But, I don’t appreciate it when some ideologies and such try to diminish my potential for bearing life, and make it out to be something less than the awe-inspiring mystery it is. It makes me feel cheapened. Neither does that mean I feel like my only value is in my potential to bear life. I guess balance is what’s needed.

Right on!

 

[ProVobis]

Thus, for example, the OF is “feminine” and the EF “manly”;

I wouldn’t go that far. There were a lot of young ladies very passionate about the Latin language in my university Latin classes. And who can forget Agatha Christie?

I’m glad you put the terms in quotes, though.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I was half-joking - poking fun at a modern disease, really: the tendency to view Christianity through a non-Christian less. Thus, for example, the OF is “feminine” and the EF “manly”; Catholics are “liberal” or “conservative”; and so forth. Applying those terms to the Church is what philosophers would call a category error.

Right on!

:whacky: Even at the EF in town I rarely see men outnumber women.