Pope & Icon of Kazan

[Fr_Ambrose]

Antonio B:

next Pope might not be as “ecumenical” and might even tell the Patriarch where to go.

Phew! You could be Orthodox with a statement like that But I am sure that the Patriarch of the Russian Church will not mind too much. In fact he may even prefer to parley with a less ecumenical Pope.

I am placing something here and it is NOT with the wish to cause any offence to anybody but because it sums up the Orthodox misquiet about the intentions of the Vatican. We see justification for this unease in the treatment of the Byzantine Catholic Churches.

In 1997, Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London, who has actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics delivered a written report to the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.

In part his report reads:

**"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism
**
“It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in ‘extinguishing’
Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and ‘accords’ on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church.”

Now that is an amazingly frank statement from a bishop renowned for his life-time participation in ecumencial dialogue and people need to ask: “Why do the Orthodox feel like this? What causes their worries?”

 

[HagiaSophia]

Fr Ambrose:

In 1997, Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London,…“It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in ‘extinguishing’
Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and ‘accords’ on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church.”

Now that is an amazingly frank statement from a bishop renowned for his life-time participation in ecumencial dialogue and people need to ask: “Why do the Orthodox feel like this? What causes their worries?”

I do not know what caused him to say this, I do not know if he was just being “over sensitive” some real or imagined slight, or whether he just “feels” that way. Actually, none of us know if he is correct - it may be just his opinion.

Both sides have a great deal to lose if it was perceived that any pope was trying to “swallow” up Orthodoxy - we are in very different times and think we can safely say that the time of the “imperial” Roman church has passed - I suspect that some thought ought to be given as to what could be gained by getting together rather than staying apart and suggest that this pope has done everything in his power to build a bridge upon which all may walk - and that he is following Scripture in 70 times seven - frankly he has shown a great deal more patience than I have with the situation - and unfortunately since Cardinal Kaspar is the “point” for this entire movement, many, many of the Latin Rite are extremely touchy, suspicious and “afeared”.

It seems to me that history will not treat Alexi kindly in this matter and I suspect denying this aged and ill old man the opportunity to come to Russia and offer his hand may not be so endearing to the Lord we both profess to worship either.

It appears to some that I have spoken with lately that Alexi seems “afraid” as if he will lose a personal place or deminishment of power if he accedes to the pope’s wish to visit. I was told yesterday that Alexi outside of Russia is no longer a central world figure to many and his intransigence with this pope is the only news he really makes. I do not know any of this as I do not know much about the man except what I have read (not much good I have to say) and what comes out in the papers.

But I feel a moment in history is passing which may not be available to all of us in any near future; if Alexi passes on and someone more ecumenical assumes his place, we may have a new pope who has other priorities either somewhere else in the world or with other faiths. It would be a loss to us all.

I do not think that on that day in the Upper Room the apostles were at all prepared for Pentecost. Would that we could have our Pentecostal moment in the near future - ready or not - it should be upon us.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Antonio B:

What is beyond my understanding is John Paul’s insistence in uniting the West and the East when the East keeps calling us schismatics and heretics. Worse, the Patriarch of Moscow chastised Catholics as a “thank you” to the Patriarch of the West just as the icon was being returned. The poor Holy Father can’t win with the Orthodox no matter how beautiful and sincere his gestures toward them. The next Pope might not be as “ecumenical” and might even tell the Patriarch where to go.

I fear this opportunity may pass us all by as with the speed of world events upon us all, what is to come from another part of the world upon us, all of Christendom needs a closer reunification of purpose and spiritual strength. The pope appears to be a great deal more patient than I am, of course he has dealt with Russians before, but frankly, reconciliation is a two way street, a mutual getting together. I fear that it is not possible in the present mode of things and I fear both East and West may pay quite dearly for this in the not too distant future. Alexi is an old man, the pope is an old man, they will be beyond this veil of tears, when the price is extracted from Christianity - but our children and our grandchildren may pay quite dearly.

And I also cannot understand what Alexi fears in letting those who wish to worship in Catholic Churches in that part of the world - he knows what athiesm has done over there, one would think that with what he has seen and heard that a million churches couldn’t wipe out the suffering, the sorrow, the martyrs who are no longer among us. East and West - they died for their Christian belief. If we could die together in the gulags and in the prisons, why in heaven’s name can’t we live and worship together. Drives me wild some days, just wild.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

HagiaSophia:

If we could die together in the gulags and in the prisons, why in heaven’s name can’t we live and worship together. Drives me wild some days, just wild.

Sophia, it would be ungentlemanly of me to guess your age but I can say that I am a pre-Vatican II baby and I can remember the Catholic attitudes and teaching before that momentous Council occured.

I can remember the highest level statements from the Vatican (Pius XII) that “error has no rights” and also that in countries where Catholics are a minority they have to tolerate the situation but hopefully only temporarily. Dig out some of the pre-Vat II seminary textbooks in America. Maybe there is material on the Internet? You’ll see what I mean. This was taught even in the land of democracy!

Now that only changed for the Vatican 40 years ago.

The Orthodox have not had any Vatican II (and I hope we never do, but for different reasons than these ones under discussion.) So while I do understand your exasperation, remember that the rest of the world was just as exasperated with the Catholic Church pre John XXIII.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

HagiaSophia:

It appears to some that I have spoken with lately that Alexi seems “afraid” as if he will lose a personal place or deminishment of power if he accedes to the pope’s wish to visit. I was told yesterday that Alexi outside of Russia is no longer a central world figure to many and his intransigence with this pope is the only news he really makes.

Well, first of all not many Orthodox leaders make the news… the West on the whole thinks we are a bunch of barbarians. Remember the faux pas of the German Minister of Finances recently, commenting on Patr. Alexei’s request for Christianity to be mentioned in the European Constitution: “Civilisation stops where Orthodoxy begins”?

Or how about the February statement on the Russian Orthodox by the gentleman known as Robert Taft, Archimandrite S.J, of the Pontifical Oriental Institute:

“Once you get over on this side of the Atlantic Ocean, the further you go South or East from anywhere, the worse everything gets, except the food. Logic gets worse, rationality gets worse, and everything
ultimately winds up in hysteria and emotionalism. It’s futile to try and
reason about this.”

Now I doubt if the Patriarch of Moscow is feeling too insecure (apart from health problems with his heart.)

He is the head of the largest national Church in Christendom. He has access to money untold. He is about to pull off the biggest public relations coup in the Orthodox world; by bringing the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad into his Patriarchate he gains an entire international network of Russian parishes, bishops and priests, monks and nuns, monasteries, printeries, etc., etc., in America, Israel, Western Europe, the UK and Australia. Even here in little old New Zealand he will have four parishes!

He may also expect that eventually the prime position within Orthodoxy will, at least de facto, go to Moscow since the Constantinople Patriarchate is faltering and Moscow will have more clout in terms of membership, finances, and (somethingh the Orthodox rather like) conservatism.

 

[pnewton]

HagiaSophia:

I fear this opportunity may pass us all by as with the speed of world events upon us all, what is to come from another part of the world upon us, all of Christendom needs a closer reunification of purpose and spiritual strength.

I feel our window of opportunity may be small (in the grand scheme of things).

I can see the hand of the Holy Spirit working through our Holy Father. We should never forget the teh effectiveness of prayer, especially when that prayer has the high priestly prayer of the Son of God.

We will be one again. Sometime.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

pnewton:

I feel our window of opportunity may be small (in the grand scheme of things).

The timeframe does not worry the East. They are temperamentally unsuited to haste, move with the speed of glaciers, and believe that God spoke truly when He said: “The mills of God grind slowly but they grind exceeding small. Though with patience He stands waiting, with exactness grinds He all.”

Actually I just had a lucid moment in my senile years and realised that those words are not really God’s but Longfellow’s.

We should never forget the teh effectiveness of prayer, especially when that prayer has the high priestly prayer of the Son of God.

We will be one again. Sometime

Yes, I absolutely agree. Prayer, and them some more prayer. And especially prayer to the Mother of God who became the mother of all Christians at the foot of the Cross.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Fr Ambrose:

Sophia, it would be ungentlemanly of me to guess your age but I can say that I am a pre-Vatican II baby and I can remember the Catholic attitudes and teaching before that momentous Council occured.

I too am both of the "old and the “new”. I remember well, thus my reference to the “imperial period”.
Fr Ambrose:

Now that only changed for the Vatican 40 years ago.

You are absolutely right in this thinking - to some of us, it just SEEMS 100 years ago…lol.
Fr Ambrose:

The Orthodox have not had any Vatican II (and I hope we never do, but for different reasons than these ones under discussion.)

Frankly I wouldn’t wish it on anyone - the world is mixed up enough. There are things I love about it, a much freer and more open place for instance, but I must tell you, the aftermath is tumultous (as you can see from these boards).
Fr Ambrose:

So while I do understand your exasperation, remember that the rest of the world was just as exasperated with the Catholic Church pre John XXIII.

I know the popes must think in centuries, (sigh), but I must tell you, patience is not one of my virtues. Time is so short and so fleeting.

And I think a part of me, knowing how hard this pope has fought to make bridges wants so see him cross over this one, just for a visit. He’s earned it. The internal opposition has been tremendous and I don’t want Alexi with his chip and his block, nor Kaspar with his excesses to destroy the opportunity or the moment. It could be so close, so close.

 

[HagiaSophia]

pnewton:

I feel our window of opportunity may be small (in the grand scheme of things).

  Me too.

pnewton:

We will be one again. Sometime.

From your lips to God’s ear.

 

[JGC]

Fr Ambrose:

The timeframe does not worry the East. They are temperamentally unsuited to haste, move with the speed of glaciers, and believe that God spoke truly when He said: “The mills of God grind slowly but they grind exceeding small. Though with patience He stands waiting, with exactness grinds He all.”

Actually I just had a lucid moment in my senile years and realised that those words are not really God’s but Longfellow’s.

Yes, I absolutely agree. Prayer, and them some more prayer. And especially prayer to the Mother of God who became the mother of all Christians at the foot of the Cross.

The west does not move quickly either. Cardinal Basil Hume, when asked about change in the Church once remarked, "The Queen Mary (large cruise ship) doesn’t turn on a six pence…

I take heart from how much things have moved on in the last 40 years compard to the last 500.

Locally the presbyterian Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church were not even talking 100 years ago. A couple of months ago the moderator of the Church of Scotland was at an ecumenical service at our Church. Unthinkable 50 years ago.

Not everyone moves forward though. We were picketed by the Orange Order in protest.

Vat II has changed the whole outlook of the Church. I would not have joined the pre Vat II church.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Fr Ambrose:

Well, first of all not many Orthodox leaders make the news… the West on the whole thinks we are a bunch of barbarians. Remember the faux pas of the German Minister of Finances recently, commenting on Patr. Alexei’s request for Christianity to be mentioned in the European Constitution: “Civilisation stops where Orthodoxy begins”?

Thanks mainly to France, (eldest daughter of the church no less), the pope fared no better.

Robert Taft, Archimandrite S.J, of the Pontifical Oriental Institute

There’s a real candidate for “diplomatic relations” - sheesh! But in his defense, he may be feeling as exasperated as I was this week.
Fr Ambrose:

Now I doubt if the Patriarch of Moscow is feeling too insecure (apart from health problems with his heart.)

Then since God has been so generous with him and his church–perhaps, just perhaps, he could take just a bit of a more civil tone and separate out the pontiff of the present, from the pontiffs of the past who rubbed him wrong.

It’s going to take the “big two” to do this dance…the music is playing, and one dancer is already on the floor, perhaps just a “noodge”??? I am hoping that in spite of himself, the Lady of Kazan turns on her charm.

 

[GrzeszDeL]

Fr Ambrose:

We see justification for this unease in the treatment of the Byzantine Catholic Churches.

In 1997, Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London, who has actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics delivered a written report to the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.

In part his report reads:

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

“It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in ‘extinguishing’
Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and ‘accords’ on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church.”

For my part, at least, I think that this is a very sensible belief for the Orthodox to hold. One does not need to look very hard to find laundry loads of “Latinizations” forced on Eastern rite Catholics by bullying Roman rite officials. Given that the same trend is readily apparent in the Orthodox Church in the other direction, with Eastern bishops forcing “Byzantinizations” on the Western rite faithful, I see no reason to suppose that this is something uniquely western or uniquely Catholic. It is just the way things work in human societies. The majority will always see itself as normative and try to conform the minorities to its own standards.

Knowing that they would be a minority (albeit a sizeable one) in a reunified Church, one can hardly blame the Orthodox for being wary of an overhasty reconciliation. Before a reunion can be effected, it would seem wise to my mind that the Orthodox should take great care to see to it that details of Church government should be spelled out quite specifically to make clear how it is that they might be protected from any future misguided efforts to standardize the Church along Roman rite lines. Indeed, this is much of the reason why I was so eager to see the Pope acknowledge Patriarch Hussar’s status; such would be a clear instance of the Pope admitting that there are realities within the Church which do not depend on his own acquiesence.

 

[GrzeszDeL]

Fr Ambrose:

I can remember the highest level statements from the Vatican (Pius XII) that “error has no rights” and also that in countries where Catholics are a minority they have to tolerate the situation but hopefully only temporarily. Dig out some of the pre-Vat II seminary textbooks in America. Maybe there is material on the Internet? You’ll see what I mean. This was taught even in the land of democracy!

Now that only changed for the Vatican 40 years ago.

Wait a second, even at Vatican II this did not change. Error still has no rights (although people have rights, even when they hold erroneous views). Even now Catholics in non-Catholic lands should be working to bring their neighbors to the true Faith (even in democracies). If this sort of thinking is an obstacle to reunion (although I am hard pressed to see why it ought to be) then reconciliation will never come because the Catholic Church cannot change Her stance on such matters. The unique truth of the Catholic faith is a point on which no council has ever compromised (nor indeed could a council compromise on such a point).

 

[GrzeszDeL]

HagiaSophia:

I consider him to be one of the top three reporters covering the Vatican; I hope I can afford his new book. I try never to miss anything he or Sandro Magister write. Good stuff. Thanks for the link.

Sandro Magister - there is another author about whom I could not speak too highly. So, do tell, who is the third member of your “top three” Vatican correspondants’ list?

 

[HagiaSophia]

GrzeszDeL:

Sandro Magister - there is another author about whom I could not speak too highly. So, do tell, who is the third member of your “top three” Vatican correspondants’ list?

For number three, I am always torn between Giulio Andreotti and his 30 Giorni staff and Robert Moynihan and his staff of Inside the Vatican. Both of them get inside interviews on subjects of real interest with people on the inside, which you just don’t get anywhere else.

Everyonce in awhile Oriana Fallaci comes up with a beaut even though she doesn’t do “religion” exclusively and of course Pullela is a real veteran of Vatican reporting.

 

[HagiaSophia]

GrzeszDeL:

One does not need to look very hard to find laundry loads of “Latinizations” forced on Eastern rite Catholics by bullying Roman rite officials. Given that the same trend is readily apparent in the Orthodox Church in the other direction, with Eastern bishops forcing “Byzantinizations” on the Western rite faithful, I see no reason to suppose that this is something uniquely western or uniquely Catholic. It is just the way things work in human societies. The majority will always see itself as normative and try to conform the minorities to its own standards.

I suspect though from Rome at least, this is no longer done as this pope has clearly held to the premise that the other rites ought to and should respect their traditions and cultural expressions within their respective groups. That’s one thing, I would assume would be a “given”.

GrzeszDeL:

Before a reunion can be effected, it would seem wise to my mind that the Orthodox should take great care to see to it that details of Church government should be spelled out quite specifically to make clear how it is that they might be protected from any future misguided efforts to standardize the Church along Roman rite lines.

Again, I simply assume that this would be part of the “agreement” - and while I don’t expect inviting the pope come to Russia would solve all problems in one day, it’s a first step and the important one.

The way I see it, if Anwar could come to Golda and Begin and Anwar could make an agreement, surely the Church can do better or at least, as well.

 

[HagiaSophia]

GrzeszDeL:

Error still has no rights (although people have rights, even when they hold erroneous views)…

But somehow I do not think this quip referred to Orthodoxy or other rites - but for the life of me, I cannot recall in what context Pacelli did say it.

 

[HagiaSophia]

JGC:

I take heart from how much things have moved on in the last 40 years compared to the last 500.

We all need to from time to time, celebrate that with you - but things do move S l o w l y

JGC:

Locally the presbyterian Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church were not even talking 100 years ago. A couple of months ago the moderator of the Church of Scotland was at an ecumenical service at our Church. Unthinkable 50 years ago.

You can say that again - who woulda’ believed it?

JGC:

Not everyone moves forward though. We were picketed by the Orange Order in protest.

Well - what can you say about them - forward to yesterday. If it wasn’t for " Jez-u-its - idolatry - and all that other preaching they have, what else do they have to do?

JGC:

Vat II has changed the whole outlook of the Church. I would not have joined the pre Vat II church.

The doctrines, the sacraments, the core beliefs are the same - although I have to admit they are certainly somewhat differently dressed.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Originally Posted by GrzeszDeL
Before a reunion can be effected, it would seem wise to my mind that the Orthodox should take great care to see to it that details of Church government should be spelled out quite specifically to make clear how it is that they might be protected from any future misguided efforts to standardize the Church along Roman rite lines.

HagiaSophia:

I suspect though from Rome at least, this is no longer done as this pope has clearly held to the premise that the other rites ought to and should respect their traditions and cultural expressions within their respective groups. That’s one thing, I would assume would be a “given”.

Dear Griz and Hagia,

You’re just not getting it, he said - in his most irenic manner.

Talk about agreements and church government are a massive turn off for the Orthodox. If anything it highlights our differences, makes us anxious and drives us further apart.

The West never believe us when we insist that the Church is a Eucharistic phenomenon. They think that we are deliberating retreating into the nebulous sphere of Orthodox theology to avoid the “more important” issue of church government and wno should be in control, who is “the boss.”. So they get annoyed at us for not dealing with what they see as the concrete issues and we get annoyed at them for confusing the Church with its administration.

But for us the unity of the Church and all her government come from the Eucharist. Where there is the bishop, there is the Church - as the Fathers say time and again. There is nothing higher in the Church than the bishop. Bishops may gather in Councils to deliberate on important issues but every bishop is equal at such church events - one man, one vote.

As the theologians like to point out: the East conceives of the Church as a vast and cosmic Sacrament for which some institutional forms are necessary because we live in a fallen world.

By way of contrast, the West is more inclined to view the Church the other way round, as a universal institution which has Sacraments.

When the Church of Rome is willing to grasp and to implement the orthodox theology of the nature of the Una Sancta, then all questions of church government will be resolved.

 

[GrzeszDeL]

I think you may be reading too much meaning into my post, Fr. Ambrose.