Pope & Icon of Kazan

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JGC:
Hmm, It would be nice if some charitable dialogue could be established for say 10 mins before historical grievences were brought up.
I am old and something from only 40 years ago does not seem “historical” to me, but only like yesterday. You must be younger than I.

What I wanted to say was that there have been remarkable and unexpected changes in the Roman Catholic Church in recent years, and especially with its attitude to non-Catholic denominations.

Now is it fair to attack the Orthodox, as they are being attacked in this thread, because they are not in step with modern day Catholic changes? The Lord will lead them according to His own timeframe.

And we should remember that while the Catholic Church in the 1960s was undergoing its own quite unique aggiornamento under John XXIII and was beginning to reject its previous rigid rejection and refusal of contact with all non-Catholic Churches, the Church of Russia was enduring a time of severe persecution and martyrdom under the Communist regime.

It has only emerged from that martyric time 14 years ago… it is still facing many many questions about its internal life and its relationships with outsiders. While it goes through this process of discernment it is better for it to lean to the conservative side.

Please do not be aggressive towards the Orthodox simply because they are not in lockstep with you and have not initiated the same changes as you have since the 1960s.
 
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HagiaSophia:
No, not from this pope; he will not surrender his hopes nor his gestures until his dying breath on this matter. Frankly I think if he was on his deathbed and the invite would arrive, I belive he’d leave for Russia in his bathrobe if he had to. 🙂 / QUOTE]

I just don’t understand. Has he been hanging on until his dying breath waiting for an invitation to visit Norway and the Lutheran Church (90% of Finns are Lutheran.)

Why this fixation on Russia? What’s at the bottom of it?
 
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JGC:
Locally we have moved from mutual vitriolic hostility to cordial discussions in the last 40 years. Not agreement folks, the main protaginists below would disagree on many things however communication channels are open and these churches co-operate in charitable actions and ecumenical services.
Here, in Middle Earth, the Roman Catholic bishops joined up with the Conference of Churches of Aotearoa-New Zealand (CCANZ) for two or three years. Then they pulled out again, isolating themselves a bit from the other Christian Churches in New Zealand.

That does not prevent ad hoc ecumenical Catholic-Anglicans services, and Anglicans are given communion at Mass by Catholic clergy in a kind of “don’t ask don’t tell” policy.
 
Fr Ambrose:
I It has only emerged from that martyric time 14 years ago… it is still facing many many questions about its internal life and its relationships with outsiders. While it goes through this process of discernment it is better for it to lean to the conservative side.
You are correct in that we should not be hasty to judge you all. I still am hopeful to see the Holy See open it’s doors to discussion and to begin building bridges to our Orthodox brothers. I would love to see real progress in my lifetime, but I know that we do not reckon time as God does.

I will be pleased to see all Christians move forward in unity. If certain Orthodox traditions are not ready for that, then may God bless them where they are. The Church will still be around next year, decade or century.
 
Code:
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HagiaSophia:
I don’t get it either and my fears are the same as yours - another pope, another view, other things on the priority list. Lost opportunities, moments which cannot be recaptured.

And I agree with your other post also, since the entire Kazan matter has arisen, it seems as if many who were willing and anxious to accomplish the end have now said, it’s the last straw. Fuhgetaboutit. There are other things going on in the world. We have managed this far and have done quite well.

The pope appears to be facing more and more opposition from within which is why Kaspar is so anxious - and while his anxiety doesn’t perturb me one whit - we are fast losing the “will” for the Pope to do this. As I said before, reconciliation is a two way affair. I hardly feel this aged and sick old man is a threat to Alexi - it’s not as if when the pope visits Russia, the Orthodox will run screaming out of their churches into ours. I have begun to feel that I must take the advice of the angels at the Incarnation - peace on earth to men of good will, but when you don’t have the “good will” you can’t make peace all by yourself.
Kasper must know that many Catholics are getting impatient with this situation and the attitude of a Patriarch who does not seem to make the effort to understand John Paul’s sincerity in this whole endeavor.

As I stated, we face secularism, terrorism, paganism, materialism, consumerism, indifferentism, and all the “isms” you can think of and instead of uniting against these modern evils, here we are fighting over nothing, for in the long history of events, the concerns of Alexi are but a footnote in the history of Christianity.

Antonio :confused:
 
Antonio B:
Code:
As I stated, we face secularism, terrorism, paganism, materialism, consumerism, indifferentism, and all the “isms” you can think of
I suppose that for the Russians one of the many “isms” they face is Catholicism… along with Methodism, Presbyterianism, Mormonism… 🙂
 
I think it unlikely that God will judge us ready to re-unite with Orthodoxy if we can’t even swallow Vatican II yet. Really, don’t we too often talk as if we still belong safe in our separate playpens?

If we don’t approach other Christians with the attitude that our understanding of our own faith is but a drop in the ocean of its truth, and that maybe just maybe they could shed some light on it… in that case, what can our prayers for unity mean? Please God, make them all agree with us? Don’t make us let you out of the box we have fashioned for you… rather, Lord, make them get into it, too?

Vatican II opened up a whole new world of the truth our faith teaches, worded by our own Magesterium. If we can’t cope with that… well, perhaps you see my point.
 
Fr Ambrose:
Why this fixation on Russia? What’s at the bottom of it?
From what I have gathered in my reading of what he has said, and what others report, there appear to be a number of reasons:
  1. Code:
    Because he is from eastern Europe and strongly felt even prior to becoming pope, that the richness of that part of the world, together with its cultures and intellectual gifts has been vastly underestimated, never given the respect it deserves and I also believe he used the word misunderstood, and he has sought to shed light to Europe and the west that there are many "gifts" from it.
2 Having lived under the Russian masters he has great empathy with those whose faith was held “in the catacombs”, in secret and the great persecutions suffered. He has heard more stories than we know of what went on in that part of the world and not just to Catholics of the Latin rite.
  1. He is interested in supporting the remnants of what were once Catholic communities and facilities and feels a personal visit by him to see some of them would give them some show of support and hope. I also think that as a Pole he wishes to personally show the Russian people, that past sins and grievances are gone forever, that on his part at least they are God’s children too.
  2. Both the pope and the bishops of Vatican II want the reunification of Christians as a “working body” of some type based on where they see the world heading. The pope once made the statement that in our time we are going to see the forces of Christianity directly waging war with the forces of anti Christians. I suspect that “unity” brings more strength. If Christianity becomes nothing but a minor voice in the world then much is lost. As far as I understand him, we are in a cultural war for our very souls and united we stand a far better chance of survival and passing the faith unto the next generations than we do separately and working against once another and being played off against one another by political types. This has been his experience as a young pastor and bishop in Poland and I suspect as pope. No matter how he disagreed with his “boss” at the time, he was quick to warn the priests in his diocese to stay close together, do not work against one another and not let themselves be used as a force for devisiveness.
  3. There have been over the years some veiled and mystical references to “forces of history” now upon us, things to come in the future which makes for him at least, the unification of God believers mandatory.
 
Antonio B:
Code:
Kasper must know that many Catholics are getting impatient with this situation and the attitude of a Patriarch who does not seem to make the effort to understand John Paul’s sincerity in this whole endeavor.
That’s the only “upside” of this entire matter for me; when and if it does happen, he won’t be able to grab the credit for it.
 
Fr Ambrose:
Now is it fair to attack the Orthodox, as they are being attacked in this thread, because they are not in step with modern day Catholic changes? The Lord will lead them according to His own timeframe.
Now Fr. Ambrose, I am not attacking the Orthodox, I am disagreeing with them or at least Alexi on this matter.🤓
(Sophia tapping fingernails on table) and as God knows, I am not long on “patience”…drives me wild.

I have been saying for years - give six women like those sisters that educated me a sheaf of pink slips, a broom and full rein at the Vatican fo 72 hours and I’ll show you more changes than Vatican II wrought. 😛
 
Fr Ambrose:
Are you aware that the Moscow Patriarchate had a quite healthy bunch of parishes around Milan, Italy?
No, I had never heard of them before. And I have some empathy with them, Paul VI abandoned Cardinal Midzenty after he gave his word that he would not, and I’ve never forgiven him for that and lo he is dead and gone these many years. 😦

Ostopolitik makes some abysmal choices for us.
 
Fr Ambrose:
I am old and something from only 40 years ago does not seem “historical” to me, but only like yesterday. You must be younger than I.

What I wanted to say was that there have been remarkable and unexpected changes in the Roman Catholic Church in recent years, and especially with its attitude to non-Catholic denominations.

Now is it fair to attack the Orthodox, as they are being attacked in this thread, because they are not in step with modern day Catholic changes? The Lord will lead them according to His own timeframe.

And we should remember that while the Catholic Church in the 1960s was undergoing its own quite unique aggiornamento under John XXIII and was beginning to reject its previous rigid rejection and refusal of contact with all non-Catholic Churches, the Church of Russia was enduring a time of severe persecution and martyrdom under the Communist regime.

It has only emerged from that martyric time 14 years ago… it is still facing many many questions about its internal life and its relationships with outsiders. While it goes through this process of discernment it is better for it to lean to the conservative side.

Please do not be aggressive towards the Orthodox simply because they are not in lockstep with you and have not initiated the same changes as you have since the 1960s.
Whoops, not being clear enough again. I am refering to all sides. Here in Scotland I get a bit fed up with some of my Catholic friends just defaulting to bringing up the whole Irish immigration - nasty old prebyterians persecuting them, wanting to pack them all back to Ireland, mentality. When I mention the current official positions and cite concrete ecumenical developments they aren’t interested.

The famous phrase is ‘He who forgets the past is condemmed to repeat it.’ I think ‘He who refuses to move forwards from the past is condemmed to live in the past’ would also be a good phrase.

I’m not having a go at you father, I like most on these boards see your presence here and attitudes as a blessing.👍 :clapping:
 
The icon has arrived at its new home and here is part of the text by Cardinal Kasper:

“I am convinced that, thanks to her powerful intercession, the Virgin of Kazan will be our support and our ally in our determination to surmount the reservations, difficulties, misunderstandings, and differences of faith that, sadly, still exist between us,” the cardinal stressed.

“Thanks to her intercession before the throne of God, she will bring together perfectly the Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church in the one Church of Christ,” said the president of the dicastery, emphasizing that the return “of the icon to Patriarch Alexy II constitutes an important ecumenical event.”

But for the cardinal, the icon “is also the symbol of the new Europe and of the process of the unification of the continent, to which Russia belongs culturally and religiously.”

In fact, after the “two terrible wars” and “totalitarian and atheist” dictatorships of the 20th century, and “in face of the prevailing phenomenon of secularism, Europe is in need of a profound renewal in the faith,” he explained.

In this connection, “the Virgin represents all the values that such a renewal implies: the dignity of the human person, the sacredness of life, the safeguarding of marriage and the family, the values of law and justice as pillars of peace. Life and the unity of the community of European peoples will be able to have stability only if they are founded on these values,” he said.

In fact, the return of the icon “is a gesture that manifests the affection of the successor of Peter for the Patriarch and the synod of the Orthodox Church and the Russian people,” said, Archbishop Leonardo Sandri, of the Vatican Secretariat of State when presiding on Thursday at lauds in honor of the Virgin Mary, before the image of the Mother of God of Kazan in the Vatican Basilica.

The gesture also expresses "the desire and firm intention of the Pope of Rome to advance together” with the Russian Orthodox “on the path of reciprocal knowledge and reconciliation so that the full unity of the disciples of Christ will be realized as soon as possible,” added the prelate, whose words were reported on Friday by L’Osservatore Romano.

zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=58051
 
Return of Icon of Kazan Encourages Reconciliation
Patriarch Alexy II Sends Letter of Gratitude to Pope

MOSCOW, AUG. 31, 2004 (Zenit.org).- The gesture of returning the Icon of the Mother of God to Russia is one that encourages reconciliation, said Patriarch Alexy II in a message of gratitude to John Paul II.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, head of the Vatican delegation formed by the Holy Father for the purpose of returning the icon to Russia, fulfilled the Pope’s mandate on Saturday in a solemn liturgy held in the Cathedral of the Dormition in the Kremlin.

“The transfer of this holy icon, brought over by your envoys, is seen by the Plentitude of the Russian Orthodox Church as both an act of the restoration of justice and an act of good will on the part of Your Holiness,” the Russian patriarch stated in his letter, published on Tuesday by the Vatican press office.

The image, considered among the most precious by the Russian Orthodox, was given to John Paul II in 1993. The Blue Army, a Catholic organization dedicated to Our Lady of Fatima, had acquired the image from an auction and in turn gave it to the Holy Father.

“I believe that your decision to hand over the icon points to the sincere desire to overcome the difficulties existing in relations between our two Churches,” the patriarch acknowledged.

“May this event become our common contribution to the overcoming of negative consequences of the 20th century history, marked with persecution against the faith of Christ unprecedented in scale,” the patriarchal letter continued.

The love that both Catholics and Orthodox feel for the Mother of God “brings us back to the times of the early Church when there were no divisions between East and West so visible, regretfully, in our days,” the patriarch added.

“The Russian Orthodox Church, always, even in her most difficult moments in her relations with the Roman Catholic Church, has invariably stated her willingness to develop these relations in the spirit of sincere cooperation,” Alexy II wrote.

“We see in the transfer of the Kazan icon a step in the right direction in the belief that in the future everything that is possible will be done to settle certain problems standing between our Churches,” he continued.

The patriarch believes that the “preaching of Christian values to the secularized society will be successful only if all Christians fulfill the Savior’s commandment of love.”

“Openness in relations among Christians of various confessions presupposes respect for one another, knowledge of their common history, and sensitivity in carrying out any actions in territories where another Christian tradition has existed for centuries,” he said.
ZE04083109
 
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JGC:
Vat II has changed the whole outlook of the Church. I would not have joined the pre Vat II church.
Phew! Isn’t that a trenchant appraisal of the changes which have occured? 👋
 
Dear Sophia, how’s about this? An article from the National Catholic Reporter which isn’t even due for release for two more days? 🙂

2004.09.03 National Catholic Reporter:
Russia regains religion, clings to old hurts

Issue Date: September 3, 2004

By WILLARD F. JABUSCH

Message deleted and replaced with a link to the NCR article

natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2004c/090304/090304w.php
 
Stalin ordered the great Church of Our Savior in Moscow to be dynamited and the site prepared for a grand skyscraper. On top would be a colossal statue of Lenin, so big and so high it would tower in the clouds. Saner minds prevailed and this monstrosity was never built. Instead, a huge outdoor swimming pool was constructed there.

Now, however, the Church of Our Savior has been reconstructed at the same place for $250 million. Its golden domes dominate the riverside landscape. Its costly marble and mosaics are truly astonishing. And it is clearly a potent symbol of the power and prestige of the Orthodox church in the “new” Russia. Putin, the mayor of Moscow and, of course, the patriarch all heartily approved of the project.

A smaller but equally significant reconstruction is the Church of Our Lady of Kazan on Red Square. Stalin decided that more room was needed for the entrance of tanks and huge missile carriers for the May Day parades, so this old and elegant little church was also destroyed. Now, using old photographs and postcard views, it has been rebuilt in exactly the same style and in the same location across from the Kremlin walls. On the feast of the Dormition (Assumption) of the Virgin [last Saturday] it was full of devout worshipers. They stood reverently during the endless litanies and watched the young priest and acolytes in their splendid blue and silver vestments. The many candles, clouds of incense, glowing icons and ancient chants clearly made this a religious experience that young and old, men and women wanted to share. But it is doubtful that the worshipers there, lighting their thin brown candles in front of favorite icons, were at all interested in the Roman Catholic pope and ecumenism.

Many Catholics felt a certain dismay as it became clear that Patriarch Alexei II was not keen on having Pope John Paul II come for a visit. It is, of course, too late now, but there is no doubt that the pope would have liked to add Russia to his list of places visited. Why were Alexei and the rest of the Orthodox hierarchy so cool – in fact, downright cold?

I think there are two main reasons. Alexei does not need the pope. The Orthodox church has made a surprising comeback after a near-death experience. The hundreds of restored churches are splendid. Monasteries and convents are again functioning and welcoming many young men and women as novices. At the most famous monastery of St. Sergius, about 45 miles from Moscow, thousands of pilgrims line up to venerate the tomb of the hermit saint. But more important, the monastery, the “Orthodox Vatican,” contains a theological academy with, I was told, almost 1,000 seminarians. From the seminary of the Alexander Nevsky monastery in St. Petersburg to the one in Nizhny Novgorod, there are hundreds of young men ready to become pastors in a revived church.
 
How would this revitalized Orthodox church benefit from a visit by the bishop of Rome? How could the patriarch, even in his most splendid vestments, gem-encrusted crown and pectoral icons, outshine the Roman visitor in his familiar white cassock? No doubt Russians of all or no religious affiliations would turn out in the thousands, if only out of curiosity, to see the man who helped bring down the ideology that had enslaved them. In fact, how many Catholics would suddenly surface for a papal Mass in Gorky Park? How many cheering young people would fill the soccer stadium to hear a pope speak fluent Russian? These were risks the shrewd Alexei did not want to take. Even greeting the pope at the airport could have meant a loss of prestige. Better that John Paul II stay in Italy than that he disturb the new religious success of “Holy Mother Russia.” Indeed, Orthodox protocol would not even allow the two men to say a common prayer!

But there is another reason why this pope, his health aside, will not visit Moscow. He is Polish. There is a long and unhappy history of Poles in Russia. The Russians believe that their “Time of Troubles” started when a young man appeared at the castle of a Polish nobleman claiming to be the Czarevich Dmitry, the heir to the throne of Russia. The papal nuncio and Polish Jesuits were very supportive since the young pretender, who converted to Catholicism, agreed to help establish Catholic schools and churches and convert Russians to the One True Church of Rome.

An army was formed and without great resistance made its way to Moscow. The Polish king, Sigismond III, was skeptical when he met Dmitry at Krakow in 1604, but he recognized him as the legitimate czar. The pretender ruled from the Kremlin with a rather liberal style until his fiancee arrived from Poland with a large entourage of nobles
and Jesuits. It was more than the boyars could endure. The pretender was killed, his body burned, and the ashes put in a cannonball, which was then fired in the direction of Poland.

Horror stories from those days linger. It is said that at the Optina monastery, the Poles massacred all the monks and then drove the women and children into the village church, which was then set on fire. True or not, it is clear who the villains are. It was therefore probably not politically astute for the pope to appoint, except for one Volga German, only ethnic Poles to be bishops of the new Russian dioceses. From his offices in the Danilovsky Monastery (a prison under the Soviets), Alexei II led his church in sponsoring a bill to restrict all other faiths in the country. He commented: “A law on religions is needed to protect Russians from destructive pseudo-religious cults, and foreign false missionaries.” One wonders whom he had in mind – Polish Jesuits?

Surely the day will come when Russia’s 4 million Roman Catholics and 5 million Eastern Rite Catholics will welcome a pope in their homeland. But he will probably be an Italian, a Nigerian or a Mexican.

Fr. Willard Jabusch writes from Skokie, Ill.
National Catholic Reporter, September 3, 2004
Copyright © The National Catholic Reporter Publishing Company, 115 E. Armour Blvd., Kansas City, MO 64111
Send comments about this Web site to: webkeeper@natcath.org

— Sorry that this is spread across three postings. It was sent to me by an American friend and I tried to find it on a website so I could simply post a link, but I could not find it anywhere.
 
Fr Ambrose:
Dear Sophia, how’s about this?
Thank you so much-- really appreciate it - and a great deal that I “felt” was affirmed by it. What I want to know is “how” did you get it before it was distributed? 🙂
 
HS:

I work about a mile from Skokie but I can assure you that I miserably failed to have a sniff of this article by “Fr. Willard Jabusch.”

God forbid if Fr. Ambrose is a Russian mole? 😃

Nyet! Fr. A is true to his ROCOR/ROCA heritage. 😉
 
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