Pope & Icon of Kazan

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Fr Ambrose said:
Russian Parliament dedicates the Mother of God and her Kazan Icon as Russia’s National Holiday

The Russian Duma (Parliament) today declared 4th November as a national holiday. On this day Russia celebrates the Icon of the Kazan Mother of God. Russia has always considered itself as being under the special protection of the Mother of God and countless churches and monasteries are consecrated in Her name.

Here is the link to the Russian TV piece:
1tv.ru/

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What a historical moment in religious and political affairs - I’m sure that Putin in his youth never dreamed any of us would see this day in Russia.
 
Fr Ambrose said:
Russian Parliament dedicates the Mother of God and her Kazan Icon as Russia’s National Holiday

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I am curious if Catholics would see this as being connected to the Fatima prophecies?

It has not gone unnoticed that the Kazan Icon spent 25 years at the shrine of Fatima - from 1970 to 1995.
 
Fr Ambrose:
I am curious if Catholics would see this as being connected to the Fatima prophecies?

It has not gone unnoticed that the Kazan Icon spent 25 years at the shrine of Fatima - from 1970 to 1995.
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Here is a website which makes no bones about a Catholic attitude to this…

**The Hand-Over of the Icon of Kazan:
A Triple Betrayal of the Catholic Church **

traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/b010htKazanReturned.htm

Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.

Published in Catholic Family News, October 2004
 
Fr Ambrose:
Here is a website which makes no bones about a Catholic attitude to this…

**The Hand-Over of the Icon of Kazan:
A Triple Betrayal of the Catholic Church **

traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/b010htKazanReturned.htm

Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.

Published in Catholic Family News, October 2004
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This is from Guimares website; this is not mainstream Catholicism - they are against Vatican II, ecumenism and most of the time against what the pope says or does in this regard. I can’t remember now if they are sede vacante’s or SSPX’rs.

While I admire Guimaraes translations of the Vatican II documents and his research into them, his webpage would certainly not reflect the actons or motives of the Vatican. They are 180 degrees apart.
 
Fr Ambrose:
The Russian Orthodox Church has been asking the Vatican to return its stolen Icon for at least 10 years.

Thank God also that the Kazan Mother of God is today back with her people in Russia. And let us also be gracious and thank God that Pope John Paul has been magnanimous and returned Her to Russia. He was very tardy but I am sure the Mother of God helped him to see where She desires to be. I am sure She will bless him for this.
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Amen! Long live JPII! I think This is the official Apostolic take on it though.

JPII said:
“May the ancient image of the Mother of the Lord tell His Holiness Alexei II and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Successor of Peter’s affection for them and for all the faithful entrusted to their care. May it speak of his esteem for the great spiritual tradition of which the Holy Russian Church is custodian. May it speak of the desire and firm determination of the Pope of Rome to progress with them on the journey of reciprocal knowledge and reconciliation, to hasten the day of that full unity of believers for which the Lord Jesus ardently prayed (cf. Jn 17: 20-22)”.
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[The situation has a certain irony. Russia has not converted. The “Orthodox” Church is weak and faltering, still controlled by the two ex-KGB agents, Alexis II and Kirill de Smolensk, with only some 2 to 5 percent of its members actually practicing. A natural opening exists for the conversion of the people to Catholicism.]

What utter garbage!

What weak and faltering church can accomplish this in such a short time? -

(entire text can be found at) -
russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/today_en.htm

In the Russian Orthodox Church today there are 128 dioceses (for comparison, there were 67 diocese in 1989), 19000 parishes (6893 in 1988), and nearly 480 monasteries (18 in 1980). These figures point vividly to an all-round revival of church life taking place under the primatial leadership of His Holiness Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia. The pastoral service is carried out by 150 bishops, 17500 priests and 2300 deacons. The network of educational Orthodox institutions is directed by the Education Committee. At present there are 5 theological academies (there were 2 in 1991), 26 seminaries (there were 3 in 1988), and 29 pre-seminaries, which did not exist at all till the 90s. There are two Orthodox universities, a Theological Institute, a women’s pre-seminary, and 28 icon-painting schools. The total number of theological students including those of the correspondence departments is about 6000 people. Educational institutions have been established to develop religious education among the laity. This important work is coordinated by the Department for Religious Education and Catechism. There is a variety of forms in which religious education and catechization of lay people are carried out, including Sunday schools at churches, circles for adults, groups for preparing adults for baptism, Orthodox kindergartens, Orthodox groups in state-run kindergartens, Orthodox gymnasia, schools, lyceums, and Orthodox courses for teachers of catechism. Sunday school has been the most popular form of catechism. In the field of charity the work is carried out on all-church level through the Department for Church Charity and Social Service. It is necessary to mention in the first place a number of successfully functioning medical programs. A special mention should be made of the Moscow Patriarchate’s Central Hospital of St. Alexis the Metropolitan of Moscow. In the situation where healthcare is becoming commercial, this medical institution is one of the few clinics in Moscow which provide free medical check-up and treatment. A psychiatric service has been set up at the Mental Health Center of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences. It gives free help to persons sent by parishes in the Moscow diocese.
Compare that with any predominately Roman Catholic country in the west where churches,seminaries, convents, are closing because of lack of participants.

Orthodoc
 
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cestusdei:
You know what they say “no good deed goes unpunished”.
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Indeed 🙂 What would our Orthodox brethren do, if they did not have something to complain about ? If the Pope did not exist, they would invent him, just so they could have something to complain about.​

If the CC left Russia alone completely, and did everything that the Orthodox want, doctrinally, and in all other respects without exception, they would still complain. It’s very sad - but only they can do anythiong about it: because only they can decide to stop this sort of behaviour: no can it do it for them. It is they who must want to do so and decide to do so. ##
 
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HagiaSophia:
A fascinating article on the return of this icon to Russia by John Allen:

"…The return of the icon is a classic example of how John Paul II scandalizes ultra-conservative Catholics, especially those devoted to the Fatima prophecies. (Catholics older than I will remember praying for the conversion of Russia during the rosary because Our Lady of Fatima requested it.) It was the Blue Army, an American Catholic group committed to spreading the message of Fatima, that purchased the Kazan icon in the early 1960s and placed it in a Byzantine chapel in Fatima, awaiting the conversion of Russia. They turned the icon over to the pope in 1993. John Paul, it should be clear, is not one to take the Fatima prophecies lightly. He believes that on May 13, 1981, the feast of Our Lady of Fatima, Mary changed the flight path of a bullet to save him from an assassination attempt. Hence his decision to give the icon back to Russia means that he believes the “conversion” called for at Fatima has already happened – i.e., the collapse of Communism. He does not believe that Russia needs to “convert” in the ecclesiastical sense, meaning to become Roman Catholic. Indeed, John Paul has made it clear that he believes the salvation of Russia will be through Orthodoxy, and that the future lies not in conversion but in communion - the Latin and Byzantine churches coming together as one family of faith, each preserving its legitimate autonomy. This stance angers some traditionalists. As one Catholic traditionalist writer, Marian Horvat, recently put it: “The Russian schismatic church continues to spread the same heresies and errors that St. Pius X warned us against. Therefore, it did not convert. If some Catholic authorities deny that it is in error, they are denying the true faith.” The Kazan story, therefore, is another instance in which the popular label of John Paul as a “conservative” comes up short. …

McCarrick took the request to the board of the Blue Army.
“I didn’t tell them the whole story, because it was important to protect the Holy Father’s freedom of action,” McCarrick said. “I simply said that he would be delighted to have it, and they graciously agreed.”

The transfer had to be conducted quietly, McCarrick said, in order not to arouse the interest of governments and other parties. If word got out that the pope had the icon, it could have compromised his capacity to decide where and when it should be given back. (Indeed, when word later leaked that the icon was in the papal apartments, pressure grew for its return).

nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/
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If Our Lady appeared at Fatima in 1917, and spoke of the conversion of Russia, how could staying Orthodox be called “conversion” ?​

OTOH, could interior conversion from a less authentically Christian Orthodox life, to a far more fully Christian Orthodox life, be meant ? Maybe that is what is meant - the conversion would not be one of churchmanship, but an interior conversion with Russian Orthodoxy from a shallower degree of Christian life to a deeper.

What was this “conversion” understood to involve, by the children, and by those who examined the alleged visions ?

One of the problems is, that what seers see, cannot be distentangled from their own subjectivity with complete certainty: visions and the like are always filtered through the visionary, who always leaves some of his or her own personality on the experience that is reported. ##
 
Orthodoc said:
[The situation has a certain irony. Russia has not converted. The “Orthodox” Church is weak and faltering, still controlled by the two ex-KGB agents, Alexis II and Kirill de Smolensk, with only some 2 to 5 percent of its members actually practicing. A natural opening exists for the conversion of the people to Catholicism.]

What utter garbage!

What weak and faltering church can accomplish this in such a short time? -

(entire text can be found at) -
russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/today_en.htm

In the Russian Orthodox Church today there are 128 dioceses (for comparison, there were 67 diocese in 1989), 19000 parishes (6893 in 1988), and nearly 480 monasteries (18 in 1980). These figures point vividly to an all-round revival of church life taking place under the primatial leadership of His Holiness Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia. The pastoral service is carried out by 150 bishops, 17500 priests and 2300 deacons. The network of educational Orthodox institutions is directed by the Education Committee. At present there are 5 theological academies (there were 2 in 1991), 26 seminaries (there were 3 in 1988), and 29 pre-seminaries, which did not exist at all till the 90s. There are two Orthodox universities, a Theological Institute, a women’s pre-seminary, and 28 icon-painting schools. The total number of theological students including those of the correspondence departments is about 6000 people. Educational institutions have been established to develop religious education among the laity. This important work is coordinated by the Department for Religious Education and Catechism. There is a variety of forms in which religious education and catechization of lay people are carried out, including Sunday schools at churches, circles for adults, groups for preparing adults for baptism, Orthodox kindergartens, Orthodox groups in state-run kindergartens, Orthodox gymnasia, schools, lyceums, and Orthodox courses for teachers of catechism. Sunday school has been the most popular form of catechism. In the field of charity the work is carried out on all-church level through the Department for Church Charity and Social Service. It is necessary to mention in the first place a number of successfully functioning medical programs. A special mention should be made of the Moscow Patriarchate’s Central Hospital of St. Alexis the Metropolitan of Moscow. In the situation where healthcare is becoming commercial, this medical institution is one of the few clinics in Moscow which provide free medical check-up and treatment. A psychiatric service has been set up at the Mental Health Center of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences. It gives free help to persons sent by parishes in the Moscow diocese.
Compare that with any predominately Roman Catholic country in the west where churches,seminaries, convents, are closing because of lack of participants.

Orthodoc
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All of this is immensely encouraging - **but, **the blessings God gives to Christians are never something for Christians to boast of 🙂 That holds true for all of us, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant or whatever.​

So, yes, we in the West have plenty of problems. But they are not a cause for discouragement. They never should be - because God is always faithful. That Russian Orthodoxy is experiencing God’s blessing in the ways described is something that strengthens all Christians, because a blessing granted to one Church, is a blessing to all; just as suffering for one, is the suffering of all. So we can never think of God’s gifts as something that exalts any of us who are more obviously blessed, over those of us who are less obviously blessed.We could only boast of God’s loving-kindness, if it were not a gift. But it is always a gift - never a reward; so how can we boast of God’s goodness, as though it were ours? For that would imply that it was our doing, under our control.

Which is why boasting by any Christians of the good done by the Churches they belong to is always pointless. For that good, is always the Lord’s doing; to Him alone is all praise due.

Which completely relativises our problems and our blessings. Only God truly knows which of all the countless incidents in our lives is most of a blessing for us - whether it seem to us to be good or ill. Maybe that is why we need faith ##
 
[Which is why boasting by any Christians of the good done by the Churches they belong to is always pointless. For that good, is always the Lord’s doing; to Him alone is all praise due.]

What boasting? It was a correction of a deliberate lie that was published on a Roman Catholic website as a justification to convert Russians to Roman Catholicism. It was my way of reminding some that they should worry about their own back yards before they try to invade other peoples. I did it by correcting the following misinformation being published on said site. -

I quote “The “Orthodox” Church is weak and faltering, still controlled by the two ex-KGB agents, Alexis II and Kirill de Smolensk, with only some 2 to 5 percent of its members actually practicing. A natural opening exists for the conversion of the people to Catholicism.”

Orthodoc
 
Dear Orthodoc:

If you refrained from writing this phrase: “Compare that with any predominately Roman Catholic country in the west where churches,seminaries, convents, are closing because of lack of participants,” I would believe your motive. Otherwise, I do not.

God bless,

Greg
 
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GAssisi:
Dear Orthodoc:

If you refrained from writing this phrase: “Compare that with any predominately Roman Catholic country in the west where churches,seminaries, convents, are closing because of lack of participants,” I would believe your motive. Otherwise, I do not.
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I find Orthodoc’s honest statement of the facts laudable.
 
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GAssisi:
If you refrained from writing this phrase: ?Compare that with any predominately Roman Catholic country in the west where churches,seminaries, convents, are closing because of lack of participants,? I would believe your motive. Otherwise, I do not.
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Dear Greg,
I believe he was just showing the irony of a Catholic claiming that the Orthodox church in Russia was weak and faltering 🙂

John
 
The “Orthodox” Church is weak and faltering, still controlled by the two ex-KGB agents, Alexis II and Kirill de Smolensk, with only some 2 to 5 percent of its members actually practicing. A natural opening exists for the conversion of the people to Catholicism.
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Likewise the Catholic Church is the States is weak and faltering, racked by sexual sin among its priests and religious. It is ripe for conversion to Orthodoxy.

Its ill health is shown by its statistics.

In 1965, there were 58,000 priests in the States.
Now it has fallen to 45,000 and many of these are over 70.

In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States.
In 2002, the number was 450.

In 1965, only 1% of U.S. parishes were without a priest.
In 2002 this number is 15%.

Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700.

Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests.
In 2000, the figure was 38.

In 1965, 2,251 young men were studying to become Franciscan priests.
In 2000, the figure was 60.

In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers.
In 2000, there were only 7.

The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965.

Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965.

The annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

We are looking at a Church in sharp decline. Orthodox mission and conversion is urgently needed to bring this ailing Church back from possible extinction.
 
Now those statistics are bad enough, but the internal evidence of the erosion of Roman Catholicism and its faith is even more worrying.

70% of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

90% of lay religious teachers reject church teaching on contraception.

53% believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic.

65% believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry.

75% believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays.

This is a Church with significant problems. The opportunity for Orthodox mission is obvious.
 
No thank you, Father. There is nothing the Orthodox can offer that Catholicism cannot. Plus, we have the added doctrinal security of the papacy. I suppose, however, given the laxer moral teaching of the Orthodox Church, people who are part of those sad statistics would be more comfortable in your Church.

God bless,

Greg
 
Fr Ambrose:
Now those statistics are bad enough, but the internal evidence of the erosion of Roman Catholicism and its faith is even more worrying.

70% of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

90% of lay religious teachers reject church teaching on contraception.

53% believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic.

65% believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry.

75% believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays.

This is a Church with significant problems. The opportunity for Orthodox mission is obvious.
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Father A,

With all due respect, even the Orthodox Church would have a hard time with pulling wayward Americans back into the fold of Christ since most of the people you mention get their religious formation from the evening news rather than from their local parish. It is hard to be open to the Truth when you have lies being thrust at you (in the guise of truth I might add) from every angle by the media.

Brian
 
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GAssisi:
I suppose, however, given the laxer moral teaching of the Orthodox Church, people who are part of those sad statistics would be more comfortable in your Church.
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I don’t know about that. How many would be willing to fast from meat and dairy almost every Wednesday and Friday, plus the whole fifty days of Lent and the forty days of Advent…
 
Well said, John. But two considerations: 1) I do not think disciplinary practices fall under “moral theology”; 2) Eastern Catholics have that same discipline. As others have pointed out, being Catholic is the best of both worlds East and West.

God bless,

Greg
 
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