Pope identifies 15 spiritual 'sicknesses' of the Curia [CWN]

[LongingSoul]

Ok. Let’s take a couple of examples. So you accept for example that marriage is between a man and a woman and sexual relations only take place during that union for the procreation of life?

Yes, I accept the Church teaching 100%.

Also for receipt of communion, that only those in a state of grace who have reconciled themselves to God through the sacrament of reconciliation should be allowed to receive holy communion?

I believe in the Churchs teachings 100%.

There are more examples but are you in agreement with these two? If so, do you accept that no one can change this?

In accordance with Church teaching I believe that doctrine expresses timeless truths of Christ and that in our limited human capacity we can but faithfully trust in the Church to reiterate or reformulate teachings so that our developing understanding as human beings remains strictly in accordance with the Gospel.

 

[Prodigal_40s]

Yes, I accept the Church teaching 100%.

I **believe **in the Churchs teachings 100%.

In accordance with Church teaching I believe that doctrine expresses timeless truths of Christ and that in our limited human capacity we can but faithfully trust in the Church to reiterate or **reformulate **teachings so that our developing understanding as human beings remains strictly in accordance with the Gospel.

Do you accept it though?

Right. So does this imply that if there’s a change proposed you’re for it? Our understanding isn’t always developing where the unshakable laws of the church are concerned. There’s no “dialogue” on this or meek acceptance of heresy. You have still avoided answering the question.
Do you want the church to change or not?

 

[LongingSoul]

Do you accept it though?

Right. So does this imply that if there’s a change proposed you’re for it? Our understanding isn’t always developing where the unshakable laws of the church are concerned. There’s no “dialogue” on this or meek acceptance of heresy. You have still avoided answering the question.
Do you want the church to change or not?

With each era of the Church and each Pope who has spoken to his flock and each time the Magisterium provides a deeper dimension to questions of faith and morals… I try my best to ‘think with the Church’ for the sake of my soul and charity towards my fellow man. For instance, one of the issues that I’ve spent much time on discussing with ultra traditionalists is the CCCs teaching that capital punishment is no longer a necessary or worthy punishment in today’s culture of death. I believe 100% in the CCC and the teaching of the Church in this area… however the ultras will call me a ‘liberal’ because “You can’t change doctrine and the CCC is just some blokes opinion which happens to be wrong!”.

So here today, I believe in the necessity to examine a certain situation pertaining to the status of some divorced/remarried Catholics, because the Church has initiated that examination with openness to the Holy Spirit for a better understanding on the nature of this conundrum. What ever the Church decides after her prayerful examination of the issue… that is what I will accept. I have no pretensions of being a theologian or any sort of religious expert that I would dare criticise the Pope or the synodal process based on my limited scope in the matters of Church doctrine and the development thereof.

 

[Sirach2]

With each era of the Church and each Pope who has spoken to his flock and each time the Magisterium provides a deeper dimension to questions of faith and morals… I try my best to ‘think with the Church’ for the sake of my soul and charity towards my fellow man. For instance, one of the issues that I’ve spent much time on discussing with ultra traditionalists is the CCCs teaching that capital punishment is no longer a necessary or worthy punishment in today’s culture of death. I believe 100% in the CCC and the teaching of the Church in this area… however **the ultras will call me a ‘liberal’ because “**You can’t change doctrine and the CCC is just some blokes opinion which happens to be wrong!”.

So here today, I believe in the necessity to examine a certain situation pertaining to the status of some divorced/remarried Catholics, because the Church has initiated that examination with openness to the Holy Spirit for a better understanding on the nature of this conundrum.** What ever the Church decides after her prayerful examination of the issue… that is what I will accept.** I have no pretensions of being a theologian or any sort of religious expert that I would dare criticise the Pope or the synodal process based on my limited scope in the matters of Church doctrine and the development thereof.

:clapping: Well spoken, LongingSoul, with true faith!
I think our only valid response can be, “Father, forgive them, they truly know not what they do.” biblehub.com/matthew/13-15.htm

From Pope Francis’ homily Christmas Eve:
People who were unassuming, open to receiving the gift of God, were the ones who saw this light. This light was not seen, however, by the arrogant, the proud, by those who made laws according to their own personal measures, who were closed off to others. Let us look to the crib and pray, asking the Blessed Mother: "O Mary, show us Jesus!"

 

[ProVobis]

What ever the Church decides after her prayerful examination of the issue… that is what I will accept.

With all due respect, I think a FINAL decision is expecting too much. The Church has spoken many, many times on the issue and it very well may be the Pope will have his own ruling and bias. But that won’t be the end of it, any more than a ruling that the traditional Mass is banned forever.

 

[Sirach2]

With all due respect, I think a FINAL decision is expecting too much. The Church has spoken many, many times on the issue and it very well may be the Pope will have his own ruling and bias. But that won’t be the end of it, any more than a ruling that the traditional Mass is banned forever.

Of course, it shouldn’t be the end, since development of doctrine is ongoing, Read Dei Verbum.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes,I do remember.
Really,he does not confuse me.
I may not understand some things as I did not understand Benedict or John Paul,but that doesn’t mean he confuses me.
I speak his language so that may be an advantage ,anyway I do not have a crystal ball nor can read his mind just like everybody else.
We can profit from what one does understand,which is already a lot to put into practice.His daily homilies are very good.
Merry Christmas to you too ! . Merry Christmas to you all!

There you go. If I were Pope, I’d ban Italian at the Vatican. Problem fixed.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

 

[Prodigal_40s]

With each era of the Church and each Pope who has spoken to his flock and each time the Magisterium provides a deeper dimension to questions of faith and morals… I try my best to ‘think with the Church’ for the sake of my soul and charity towards my fellow man. For instance, one of the issues that I’ve spent much time on discussing with ultra traditionalists is the CCCs teaching that capital punishment is no longer a necessary or worthy punishment in today’s culture of death. I believe 100% in the CCC and the teaching of the Church in this area… however the ultras will call me a ‘liberal’ because “You can’t change doctrine and the CCC is just some blokes opinion which happens to be wrong!”.

**So here today, I believe in the necessity to examine a certain situation pertaining to the status of some divorced/remarried Catholics, because the Church has initiated that examination with openness to the Holy Spirit for a better understanding on the nature of this conundrum. ** What ever the Church decides after her prayerful examination of the issue… that is what I will accept. I have no pretensions of being a theologian or any sort of religious expert that I would dare criticise the Pope or the synodal process based on my limited scope in the matters of Church doctrine and the development thereof.

Yep. Your answer was mostly verbose but BINGO! You confirmed what I thought.

Also I am humble and not too bright but if there’s something afoot that means having a “DIALOGUE” over sexual morality then I’m up for a fight because I will never accept a “revision” that involves any tenuous acceptance of wrong. God Bless

 

[graciew]

There you go. If I were Pope, I’d ban Italian at the Vatican. Problem fixed.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

Hahaha I would be obedient to you and I would study Latin ! ( I did in high school…)
And you would keep giving me good grades.
Pacta sunt servanda. :aok:

 

[Prodigal_40s]

There you go. If I were Pope, I’d ban Italian at the Vatican. Problem fixed.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

Is there a possibility that a combination of failure to coordinate communication and translation issues are causing this confusion? This is a real clustermess. I’ve tried to read a neutral and objective analysis and I’m still looking for one. It’s either outright condemnation or a view that we’re on the verge of trying to change church teaching. I’m annoyed and frustrated at not being able to find a definitive answer. It shows you though that despite technology and mass communications we can’t get straight answers to simple questions any more!

 

[graciew]

Is there a possibility that a combination of failure to coordinate communication and translation issues are causing this confusion? This is a real clustermess. I’ve tried to read a neutral and objective analysis and I’m still looking for one. It’s either outright condemnation or a view that we’re on the verge of trying to change church teaching. I’m annoyed and frustrated at not being able to find a definitive answer. It shows you though that despite technology and mass communications we can’t get straight answers to simple questions any more!

I do not know,Prodigal. Sometimes we have to learn to live with questions,sometimes our daily lives and the purpose of what we have been created for are very far away from the questions we seem to need to get an answer for.
Here and now our life is a gift,here and now the important may not be what we believe is urgent.
Sometimes we do not not the "why? " but we trust Jesus in our hearts that He knows the "what for " .
In a perspective of eternity,I do not want to miss the here and now of what is real,for a future that here and now does not exist.
God knows. And He loves us…be at peace

 

[shelby_sun]

I believe with no doubt that the Pope’s words were direct and harsh, no matter how they were really worded. Being raised with the Jesuits all my life, I have always been stunned by the Vatican and how the Popes have lived. I could never believe in any way that Christ would live like that if He were alive on earth and running the Church.

As a Jesuit, The Pope is more uncomfortable than you could possibly know with where and how he has to live as the Pope. At the school I work, the priests’ rooms are no bigger than a smaller dorm room with one a bed, a chair, and a small table no matter if they are the President of the school or a Brother in another roll. The Priest who is the President of the school is under the Rector of the Community when they are in their residence. No one is superior to anyone else, they simple have different roles.

There is no trying to “get ahead” or get a better "role. They are here to serve God not to move up in the world. I am thrilled with whatever the Pope said and believe it was closer to what has been reported then some would like to think.

People can keep blaming the press for manipulating his words, we now have a completely different Pope who is trying to clean up a very messy Church. NOT the teaching but those who are doing the teaching while trying to benefit themselves. Yes even some “holy men” are corrupt.

 

[ProVobis]

Is there a possibility that a combination of failure to coordinate communication and translation issues are causing this confusion?

Well, without getting into moral issues, if national languages define borders, cultures, currencies, and/or splits in parishes, there is a solution for that.

 

[ProVobis]

As a Jesuit, The Pope is more uncomfortable than you could possibly know with where and how he has to live as the Pope.

I was just talking about that with a friend last night. It seems the ones who are uncomfortable are the Franciscans who may be declaring bankruptcy soon. I’m sure the Pope doesn’t want to see the Jesuits go next. I’m not making any points here, just sayin…

 

[ProVobis]

And you would keep giving me good grades.
Pacta sunt servanda. :aok:

Of course. Goes without sayin…

 

[LongingSoul]

With all due respect, I think a FINAL decision is expecting too much. The Church has spoken many, many times on the issue and it very well may be the Pope will have his own ruling and bias. But that won’t be the end of it, any more than a ruling that the traditional Mass is banned forever.

You’ve read your own bias into my words since I made no mention of finality. Nevertheless, I will accept the decisions of the Church ministering to my generation as the relevant guide just as I respect our ancestors in faith adherence to the Church teachings of their own generation and as I will respect our descendants in faith adherence to the Church teachings in the times to come. I don’t believe in pitting one Pope against another or one Church era against the other. That doesn’t reflect the Church for what she is… a ‘pilgrim’ Church.

 

[LongingSoul]

Yep. Your answer was mostly verbose but BINGO! You confirmed what I thought.

Also I am humble and not too bright but if there’s something afoot that means having a “DIALOGUE” over sexual morality then I’m up for a fight because I will never accept a “revision” that involves any tenuous acceptance of wrong. God Bless

I genuinely don’t understand how Catholics can say something like this. Don’t you believe that the Pope can’t teach error regarding questions of faith and morals? He is protected by the Holy Spirit through the office ordained by Jesus. Can I ask if you are a convert to Catholicism? Only sometimes I’ve noticed that converts have to struggle to have that final confidence of faith in the Papal office.

 

[ProVobis]

You’ve read your own bias into my words since I made no mention of finality. Nevertheless, I will accept the decisions of the Church ministering to my generation as the relevant guide just as I respect our ancestors in faith adherence to the Church teachings of their own generation and as I will respect our descendants in faith adherence to the Church teachings in the times to come. I don’t believe in pitting one Pope against another or one Church era against the other. That doesn’t reflect the Church for what she is… a ‘pilgrim’ Church.

Fair enough, except “generations” can be several over one’s lifetime.

 

[ProVobis]

Is there a possibility that a combination of failure to coordinate communication and translation issues are causing this confusion? This is a real clustermess. I’ve tried to read a neutral and objective analysis and I’m still looking for one. It’s either outright condemnation or a view that we’re on the verge of trying to change church teaching. I’m annoyed and frustrated at not being able to find a definitive answer. It shows you though that despite technology and mass communications we can’t get straight answers to simple questions any more!

OTOH, this may tend to vindicate all those who held various conspiracy theories concerning Vatican affairs going back “generations.”

 

[Prodigal_40s]

LongingSoul;12602845**:

I genuinely don’t understand how Catholics can say something like this.

Don’t you believe that the Pope can’t teach error regarding questions of faith and morals? He is protected by the Holy Spirit through the office ordained by Jesus. Can I ask if you are a convert to Catholicism? Only sometimes I’ve noticed that converts have to struggle to have that final confidence of faith in the Papal office.

Really? Yeah and I have this problem with Catholics who want to see a debate over core teachings. If you want to debate “issues” and you’d like to see church teaching changed, a wee German guy beat you to it in the 1500’s. I think you’ll find that there are many others since then.

I find the rest of your post just foolish regarding Popes when you consider the history of the church. In spite of all that and this new Twitter generation of the ill informed, the church’s core teachings have never changed thanks to faithful born and bred Catholics. I have fears of people who use nefarious and underhand methods such as buddying up to the secular media who despise us and attending festivals which promote sexual promiscuity but there are always faithful Catholics and they are growing in number in spite of the decline in the numbers actually attending services and receiving sacraments.

I genuinely don’t care if you understand or not. If you simplified things by giving straight answers to direct questions, you would find greater clarity. It took you 3 posts to admit that you want change to the laws over the receipt of communion but that really doesn’t matter
Oh and for the sake of clarity, I mean people receiving sacraments lawfully in the eyes of the Catholic church HTH