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Usige
Guest
I am thinking specifically of the prayers used in the Apostolic Constitutions - Book VIII.
XVIII - The Form of Prayer for the Ordination of a Deacon
XX - The Form of Prayer for the Ordination of a Deaconess
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XVIII - The Form of Prayer for the Ordination of a Deacon
XX - The Form of Prayer for the Ordination of a Deaconess
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Corki
Guest
No, I was referring to the comments about how this isn’t enough, that there needs to be women priests and bishops, that the Pope is anti-woman - especially since he won’t approve contraception etc.
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gilliam
Guest
I think they are talking about the ad diaconam faciendam
books.google.com/books?id=4QP1JzaY-dMC&pg=PA203&lpg=PA203&dq=ad+diaconam+faciendam&source=bl&ots=eFsfPlNe3g&sig=cClW24LT1Q2AllCNaNmcR9v-dqM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwvtao4qXOAhXB4SYKHcP3BfYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=ad%20diaconam%20faciendam&f=false
However I suppose one can debate about whether the candidate prostrated herself in front of the alter during the ceremony or not. In Women Deacons? Essays and Answers by Phyllis Zagano (pg 37) said she did.
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TMC
Guest
I stand by my previous statement, which was and is correct.
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phil19034
Guest
But from that same source, it’s interesting what XXVIII says about the Deaconess
The Same Apostle’s Canons Concerning Bishops, Presbyters, Deacons, and the Rest of the Clergy.
XXVIII. Concerning the canons I the same make a constitution. A bishop blesses, but does not receive the blessing. He lays on hands, ordains, offers, receives the blessing from bishops, but by no means from presbyters. A bishop deprives any clergyman who deserves deprivation, excepting a bishop; for of himself he has not power to do that. A presbyter blesses, but does not receive the blessing; yet does he receive the blessing from the bishop or a fellow presbyter. In like manner does he give it to a fellow presbyter. He lays on hands, but does not ordain; he does not deprive, yet does he separate those that are under him, if they be liable to such a punishment. A deacon does not bless, does not give the blessing, but receives it from the bishop and presbyter: he does not baptize, he does not offer; but when a bishop or presbyter has offered, he distributes to the people, not as a priest, but as one that ministers to the priests. But it is not lawful for any one of the other clergy to do the work of a deacon. A deaconess does not bless, nor perform anything belonging to the office of presbyters or deacons, but only is to keep the doors, and to minister to the presbyters in the baptizing of women, on account of decency. A deacon separates a sub-deacon, a reader, a singer, and a deaconess, if there be any occasion, in the absence of a presbyter. It is not lawful for a sub-deacon to separate either one of the clergy or laity; nor for a reader, nor for a singer, nor for a deaconess, for they are the ministers to the deacons.
This here indicates that the deaconess was beneath the Office of Deacon and was not permitted the perform the same roles.
Personally, I strongly believe that the Deaconess was a minor order which was eliminated once it wasn’t needed anymore. Furthermore, the minor orders have been eliminated in the Latin Church (with the exception of Traditional groups like the FSSP).
I fail to see what a Deaconess would do today, unless they provided her with a role that she did not have in the past. It’s evident from the above that a Deaconess did not preach at Mass.
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JimG
Guest
My prediction, for whatever it’s worth, is that IF the ministry of deaconess is revived, it will not be a part of the sacrament of Holy Orders, the recipients will not be ordained, but may be instituted in a separate ceremony, such as EMHC’s might be instituted.
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Padres1969
Guest
Ah… those. Yeah you really can’t be surprised by those. I mean the vast majority of Catholics approve of contraception so it stands to reason they’d hold such opinions of the church and its leader due the church holding fast on the issue.No, I was referring to the comments about how this isn’t enough, that there needs to be women priests and bishops, that the Pope is anti-woman - especially since he won’t approve contraception etc.
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phil19034
Guest
I think they would have a installation, but my question is what would they do? Having a title for the sake of having a title isn’t a good idea.
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Just_Lurking
Guest
As pointed out above, the historical ceremony for instituting deaconesses was nearly identical to the corresponding ceremony for deacons. Since Pope Francis seems to be focusing this study on historical practice, my guess is that IF the ministry of deaconess is revived, then the ceremony/rite for deaconesses will again closely mirror that for deacons.
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Usige
Guest
I would agree. From the nonexhaustive reading I have done, deaconess (at least in the West) has always been subordinate to the deacon. In some case is has been below the sub-deacon or even all the minor orders. Both the councils of Laodicea and Nicea expressly state that deaconess is to be considered members of the laity and the council of Orange and Nismes seem to expressly deny (even forbid) that the deaconess is related to the levitical ministry.
At best we can say that the history of the deaconess is clouded and convoluted. If it is restored I would think it should be done as an instituted ministry similar to lector or acolyte. What the duties would be I’m not sure. If a deaconess is not to bless, preach or do anything else reserved for the deacon I don’t know what the benefit is other to make some people feel like the Church is being “progressive” in some fashion. To be honest they would be better off asking about opening the instituted ministries of lector and acolyte to women. At least as an acolyte they can assist in purifying the sacred vessels.
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twf
Guest
The blessing of an abbess is a fairly elaborate ritual that, in many ways, “looks” like an ordination or even an episcopal consecration…yet we know it is a distinct sacramental and not the sacrament of holy orders.
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twf
Guest
I think it would go beyond the installation of an EMHC. I agree that it would be a distinct sacramental, and not the sacrament of holy orders, but I think it would be a fairly elaborate rite more akin to the consecration of a virgin or the blessing of an abbess. Note that both these rites, while sacramentals and not the sacrament of holy orders, are truly life changing and vocational for the women who receive them. Both are also conferred by the bishop and have many external parallels to ordination.
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E_7
Guest
Well, I’m thinking it would be like the thing with the altar girls. It discourages boys from participating and serving and therefore a lack of men into the priesthood. The Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate conducted a Survey of Ordinands to the Priesthood every year for a few years there. In it, priests are asked about their ethnicity, siblings, education and participation in parish ministries, that kind of thing. One of the questions asked was: Were they altar servers during their formative years? The results were: In 2010, 70% of the respondents had been servers. In 2011 it was 71%, 75% in 2012 and 67% in 2013. Clearly, there’s a strong correlation.
Something more recent would be the 1917 Code of Canon Law.
A woman may not be a minister of the Mass, except when no male is available and for a just cause, and under the condition the she makes the responses from a distance, not under any circumstances approaching the altar.
And some may point that that was before Vatican II, and that after the Council the Church must have “changed”. But nope. Girls serving on the altar was actually condemned, twice. First, by Pope Paul VI in 1970 when he wrote;
In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.
And then, 10 years later in 1980, Pope St. John Paul II repeated it:
There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading of the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.
So it’s pretty clear the Church doesn’t allow and has never allowed women to serve on the altar. Now, a lot of people like feminists, badly formed priests, don’t much like that. I mean, after all, what’s the big deal? It can’t really be “wrong” to have altar girls, right? After all, anything a boy can do a girl can do just as well. Besides, if the girls serve they’ll take a more active role in the Church. Might even encourage them in a religious vocation, maybe?
Surely, it’d be awful sexist not to allow women to serve in this day and age, right?
BUT, nope.This isn’t some arbitrary prohibition. There are serious pastoral and theological difficulties with women serving at the altar, and these can have a very damaging impact on the Faith.
No one would say women don’t have a role to play in the Church. That’s not what this is about. But the Church has always recognized there are differences between the sexes, and that these differences mean each gender has distinctive roles to play in the economy of salvation. Whatever role a woman wants to play — and there are many roles she can play, all of them absolutely vital — she can never be a priest. And this doesn’t mean the Church doesn’t allow women to be priests. Women are unable to be priests. A female priest is like a square circle, a contradiction in terms. Pope St. John Paul II laid this out very clearly when he wrote:
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.
Even Pope Francis, whom everyone seems to think is up for changing anything, said: “With regard to the ordination of women, the Church has spoken and says no. … That door is closed.”
But anyway, in my opinion, women deacons are a bad idea. It discourages men to serve the altar (alter boys, deacons or priests).
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Padres1969
Guest
Actually the NRSV, of which the Catholic version has the imprimatur of the USCCB, uses “deacon” in that passage as well.
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Padres1969
Guest
Still not seeing how the presence of women, or girls, in an unordained diaconate or as altar servers, discourages men or boys to participate in the diaconate or as altar servers. And certainly how their presence in either role would discourage priests since that remains a male only vocation and is not something even up for discussion given it’s been definitively spoken on. Are men somehow put off by the presence of women? And if so why?
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MorEphrem
Guest
Acknowledging that there was an ordained female diaconate (which still exists amongst Armenians and, to a lesser extent, minor deacons amongst Syriacs), this seems to be nothing more than a political move to exploit the sacred orders of the Church to “make people interested.”
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TMC
Guest
You are also welcome to your opinion, incorrect as it may be.
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Padres1969
Guest
Ed, that second article was from 15 years ago. Were you attempting to make some sort of parallel connection between the two articles?
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