Pope institutes commission to study the diaconate of women

[Usige]

There is only one Sacrament of Holy Orders.

This is the part that I have heard no good response on from a sacramental theology stand point.

The 3 degrees of Holy Orders could be described as an unfolding of the sacrament with each degree further revealing the fullness of the sacrament, but it is still a single sacrament. It would seem odd for Christ to institute something and then say, women you can climb the first step but go no further. Obviously some will argue that it is man stopping women from the priesthood and episcopate, but that would be contradictory to Catholic teaching.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

From the linked article

Who plagiarized who?

That would be me…In my haste, I forgot to include quotation marks…Mea Culpa

 

[Angel_Bradford]

Angel - they were NOT ordained in ceremonies identical to those used for male Deacons. They were “ordained” in ceremonies similar to Sub-Deacons. The only thing I’ve seen that shows any similarity to male Deacons was that the Deaconess was given a stole, but they were not allowed to wear an Alb.

The point is, their role was NOT a role for Mass, other than guarding the door (which the Porter eventually was created to do).

It’s also very clear that in those early days “Deacon” and “Deaconess” were not considered to be the same thing, because they were not.

Again, the Deaconess served 2 primary purposes: ASSIST with the Baptism of adult women (who were baptized naked back then), ASSIST with rubbing oil on women when it was uncomfortable for the priest or woman during Confirmation or Annoitment of the Sick, and to guard the door during mass. That’s it.

Deaconess did not read the Gospel, they did not give homilies/sermons, they didn’t serve as lector, acolyte, cantor, etc.

If the office of “Deaconess” was RESTORED, what would they do today? A restored office of deaconess would not have a purpose of function today. So they would need be granted responsibilities they previously did NOT have.

So let’s be honest for a moment. Allowing deaconesses would NOT be a restoration, it would be an innovation.

Allowing female Deacons who preach the Gospel and give homilies at mass is ENTIRELY different than restoring the ancient office of Deaconess.

If you are truly in favor of RESTORING the Deaconess, please tell me why and what they would do?

I’m not in favor because I don’t believe in having figurehead titles and offices. I personally don’t believe the restoration of the Deaconess will solve anything, nor make anything better. It will not give women more “power” in the Church. It is simply an obsolete relic of the past, like the sundial. Today, we have clocks, so sundials are obsolete; just as deaconesses are obsolete because we no longer baptize or anoint adult women in the nude.

God Bless

The benefits of ordaining women to the permanent diaconate are numerous. The most important benefit is that there will be more workers in the vineyard because ordained women would support the sacramental needs of the Church.

It would formalize the ministry of women by providing an avenue to a two-sided commitment meaning that necessity dictates that the Church should, but does not have the same authority over lay persons who perform diaconal ministry as it does over deacons.

Ordaining women deacons would protect both the Church and the women doing the ministering.

The works that permanent deacons are usually involved in are the same ones that are traditionally available to women, meaning those works that do not require priestly ordination.

And by rescript, women can fulfill all the sacramental functions of a deacon, albeit, such rescripts are rare and usually occur in extreme mission territories where priests are a rare commodity.“The history of the Church is clear: women have been ordained to diaconal ministry in the past and they could be again. The entire Church would benefit from a full an open discussion on this issue.”

 

[Thursday1]

This is the part that I have heard no good response on from a sacramental theology stand point.

The 3 degrees of Holy Orders could be described as an unfolding of the sacrament with each degree further revealing the fullness of the sacrament, but it is still a single sacrament. It would seem odd for Christ to institute something and then say, women you can climb the first step but go no further. Obviously some will argue that it is man stopping women from the priesthood and episcopate, but that would be contradictory to Catholic teaching.

I’m going to preface this by saying that I don’t think women can be ordained to the diaconate, but I’m waiting for the Church’s official pronouncement on it.

But, here’s how it could be possible for women to be ordained to the diaconate, but not the priesthood or episcopate.
Lumen Gentium:

At a lower level of the hierarchy are deacons, upon whom hands are imposed “not unto the priesthood, but unto a ministry of service.”

Deacons do not act in persona Christi (though there is some debate on this) unlike Priests and Bishops, so there is already a break between the 1st level and the other 2.

Again, I don’t think this would be the reason to allow sacramental ordination because I suspect that deacons do act in persona Christi Servi, which would make all three levels act in different aspects of Christ.

 

[Usige]

Deacons do not act in persona Christi (though there is some debate on this) unlike Priests and Bishops, so there is already a break between the 1st level and the other 2.

Again, I don’t think this would be the reason to allow sacramental ordination because I suspect that deacons do act in persona Christi Servi, which would make all three levels act in different aspects of Christ.

I would agree that the presbyterate and episcopate are ordained to serve in persona Christi capitis. As you mention there has been talk over the last decade or two that the diaconate is ordained to act in persona Christi servi. If true, then that would then say that Holy Orders is a continuum of ordination in persona Christi with multiple degrees if you would. I really think as time goes on we will refine the theology to include another degree that describes episcopal ordination with each building on the former (servant, leader, ???).

I have recently been wondering if the three orders might somehow be related to the role of priest, prophet, and king through baptism or perhaps reflect the Trinity itself. If all three order are ordained in persona Christi then we have to understand the ontology that implies.

That is part of my issue with trying to shoe horn in a “restored deaconess” when there is still much we are trying to understand about the theological relationship between the 3 orders. The western Church has survived for atleast 15+ centuries without deaconessess, so can we not take the time required to first understand the theology of the diaconate before we say if it is theologically possible for women to be ordained to the order?

 

[phil19034]

I’m going to preface this by saying that I don’t think women can be ordained to the diaconate, but I’m waiting for the Church’s official pronouncement on it.

But, here’s how it could be possible for women to be ordained to the diaconate, but not the priesthood or episcopate.

Deacons do not act in persona Christi (though there is some debate on this) unlike Priests and Bishops, so there is already a break between the 1st level and the other 2.

Again, I don’t think this would be the reason to allow sacramental ordination because I suspect that deacons do act in persona Christi Servi, which would make all three levels act in different aspects of Christ.

Yes, Deacons act in persona Christi Servi. It’s also worth noting that sometimes priests do too.

 

[phil19034]

The benefits of ordaining women to the permanent diaconate are numerous. The most important benefit is that there will be more workers in the vineyard because ordained women would support the sacramental needs of the Church.

why would there be more “workers in the vineyard”? How would deaconesses support the sacramental needs of the the Church? Could you please be specific?

Could you please tell me how male Permanent Deacons today “support the sacramental needs of the Church” other than their role at Mass? From my point of view, the sacramental needs of the Church requires more priests. We need more priests to celebrate Mass, for confession, & anointing the sick. Deacons cannot do any of those things.

However, I do agree that Deacons help out with pastoral needs of the Church (like prison ministry, etc) but they really do not make a big dent in the sacramental needs of the Church.

It would formalize the ministry of women by providing an avenue to a two-sided commitment meaning that necessity dictates that the Church should, but does not have the same authority over lay persons who perform diaconal ministry as it does over deacons.

I fail to understand this. Nuns and religious sisters (and lay religious brothers) don’t need to be ordained to have this “two-sided commitment.” Plus as far as the “authority over lay persons” vs authority over Deacons doesn’t make sense to me.

Bishops have authority over Deacons (priests do not). The bishop has this authority because the Deacon makes a vow of obedience to his bishop.

An oath of fidelity should be enough. Or the someone could establish a religious third order for the laity where the members make a vow of obedience to the bishop. Then, you will have the authority thing you are asking for.

Here’s the irony… a huge number of the great male Catholic apologists, teachers, theologians, etc are not ordinated. Dr. Scott Hahn, Dr. Tim Gray, Dr. Edward Sri, Tim Staples, Steve Ray, Patrick Madrid, etc. None of them are Deacons. Sure, there are a few who are, but a large number are not. And these guys are some of the most faithful men to the Magisterium.

Ordaining women deacons would protect both the Church and the women doing the ministering.

I’m not following you here. Are you talking about insurance? Because if so, that’s why there are lay apostolates has insurance policies.

The works that permanent deacons are usually involved in are the same ones that are traditionally available to women, meaning those works that do not require priestly ordination.

Here, if you are talking about prison ministry, RCIA, visiting the homebound, hospital ministry, leading men’s groups, etc; then there are more laymen involved with these things than ordained Deacons. One does NOT have to be ordained to serve The Lord.

And by rescript, women can fulfill all the sacramental functions of a deacon, albeit, such rescripts are rare and usually occur in extreme mission territories where priests are a rare commodity.“The history of the Church is clear: women have been ordained to diaconal ministry in the past and they could be again. The entire Church would benefit from a full an open discussion on this issue.”

No. The Deaconess was on par (or even below) that of a Sub-Deacon. And liturgically, the Deaconess was on par with the Porter. A Deaconess could never fulfill all the sacramental functions of a Deacon, just like a Sub-Deacon could never fulfill the sacramental functions of a Deacon. It’s not possible and anyone who says so is wrong.

The Deaconess NEVER received the Sacarment of Holy Orders. They were a minor order, but not a Sacramental one.

I would also like to note: so far, everything you listed above are not arguments for restoring the Office of Deaconess, but what you propose was never the reason for the office. It seems to me that you are proposing ordaining women for pastoral reasons. However, people are not ordained for pastoral reasons, they are ordained for Sacarmental reasons. You don’t have to be ordained to provide pastoral ministry. We are all called to witness. We are all called to evangelize, perform works of mercy, etc. We are all called to be pastors of the people we have authority over. Do we not pastor our children, our employees, out students, etc? Of course we do. However, the ordained are called for one reason, to provide the Sacarmental ministry.

So in conclusion, you have yet to mention what unique, sacarmental purpose the Office of Deaconess would serve today.

God Bless.

 

[deaconjohnO]

Were they ordained in ceremonies identical to those used for men? Yes. .

This is not correct information and extremely misleading. There is only ONE Sacrament of Holy Orders. Deacons are the the sacramental sign of Christ the servant. We are present in the person of Christ the Servant. Not unlike the priest who are present in persona Christi at the altar. To ordain women the theology behind holy orders would have to be completely changed. Since deacons are receiving the same sacrament the priests are just a different “level” you would have to wipe the theology behind the sacrament to include women. JP II in his letter ordinatio Sacerdotalis (OS) (even though it was about the ministerial priesthood) uses the example of deacons being chosen as males to drive his point home. I always get the same argument from people about OS saying its a document about the priesthood and not the diaconate. But people fail to realize the document doesn’t mention the office of bishop either…so does that leave the door open to female bishops?

 

[_Abyssinia]

Women deacons: What happens next?

Phyllis Zagano | Aug. 10, 2016

Pope Francis named just one woman from the Western Hemisphere to his commission on women deacons.
That would be me.

So, what happens next? Fact is, I do not know. I assume at some point in the not-too-distant future, I will receive an invitation to go to Rome to meet with the other commissioners. Our mandate is to study women in the diaconate.

When he spoke to the members of the Union of International Superiors General in Rome on May 12, the Holy Father said he was especially interested in the women deacons of the early church. He said he would ask the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith what it had on the matter and, yes, at the sisters’ request, he would form a commission.

I wonder what the doctrinal congregation sent. I wonder if it sent along the 1997 International Theological Commission report that found no barrier to women deacons. I understand the report was printed, numbered and readied for the International Theological Commission president’s signature, but he refused to sign it. It was not published.

ncronline.org/blogs/just-catholic/women-deacons-what-happens-next

Interesting article

Fr Zuhlsdorf - In reponse to Phyllis Zagano on women deacons: wdtprs.com/blog/2016/08/in-response-to-phyllis-zagano-on-the-matter-of-female-deacons/

In that article Fr Zuhlsdorf cites this article by Sr. Sara Butler - The Burden of Proof concerning Women Deacons:

firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2016/08/the-burden-of-proof-concerning-women-deacons

 

[deaconjohnO]

Actually I know a number of habit wearing nuns who would be ordained in a flash.

I hope this wouldn’t be possible. The formation process is 5-7 years. It takes years for the individual man to discern if the diaconate is the right path. Also his wife weighs heavily in this discernment. But equally important (and often not realized) is the discernment of the parish community. I know my own process involved serious (name removed by moderator)ut from the parishioners. For the last few months leading up to ordination my parish had a banns like statement in the bulletin so individuals our groups could anonymously report concerns about suitability for Diaconal service. If there were concerns the brakes of formation were hit pretty hard. For dioceses that only have one formation class at a time wouldn’t see women deacons for nearly a decade AFTER (if it happens) any change to the rules. To change or “fast-track” the process for certain folks because of Gender would be an injustice to Christ’s holy Church and a great risk.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I hope this wouldn’t be possible. The formation process is 5-7 years. It takes years for the individual man to discern if the diaconate is the right path. Also his wife weighs heavily in this discernment. But equally important (and often not realized) is the discernment of the parish community. I know my own process involved serious (name removed by moderator)ut from the parishioners. For the last few months leading up to ordination my parish had a banns like statement in the bulletin so individuals our groups could anonymously report concerns about suitability for Diaconal service. If there were concerns the brakes of formation were hit pretty hard. For dioceses that only have one formation class at a time wouldn’t see women deacons for nearly a decade AFTER (if it happens) any change to the rules. To change or “fast-track” the process for certain folks because of Gender would be an injustice to Christ’s holy Church and a great risk.

I appreciate all the hard work both you and the parish community went through in discernment as well as training. If ordaining women as deacons goes through and becomes a reality for women, there will be a process for them also. However, remember that many women already have advance degrees in theology or even their MDiv. Many women have been doing specific ministries for decades. My guess is that the first rounds of ordinations will have their own unique way of fast tracking qualified people through. That’s just a guess, but it is quite likely.

 

[Corki]

Actually I know a number of habit wearing nuns who would be ordained in a flash.

In addition to what has been said about formation, there is the matter of already being committed to a religious community. Deacons serve the Bishop while sisters, nuns and men religious are subject to the authority of their superiors. Since one cannot ordinarily be under the direct authority of both, a religious sister could not enter formation to be a deacon without first being released from her vows and promises.

Deacons are also almost always expected to be financially stable with an income of their own (or a pension). While there are some sisters that have the ability to earn a self-sufficient income, they are financially dependent on their communities.

It is also very rare for someone to be accepted into formation for the permanent diaconate who is not married or widowed.

For all of these reasons, I would not expect women in religious orders to be among the first considered for the role of deaconess.

(not to mention that the women in religious life who are interested in being ordained are not likely to be as interested in a non-ordained role such as being a deaconess)

However, remember that many women already have advance degrees in theology or even their MDiv.

Advanced training in theology does not make up the bulk of diaconate formation. This wouldn’t necessarily shorten the time.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

In addition to what has been said about formation, there is the matter of already being committed to a religious community. Deacons serve the Bishop while sisters, nuns and men religious are subject to the authority of their superiors. Since one cannot ordinarily be under the direct authority of both, a religious sister could not enter formation to be a deacon without first being released from her vows and promises.

Deacons are also almost always expected to be financially stable with an income of their own (or a pension). While there are some sisters that have the ability to earn a self-sufficient income, they are financially dependent on their communities.

.

These are all very helpful things to know. Thank you. Regarding the issue of women religious, wouldn’t the same dynamics be true of men in religious orders? They are bound to their superiors and not the local bishop, and from what I understand, it isn’t a problem. Why would it be a problem for women who are involved in ministry either inside or outside their congregation?

 

[Usige]

These are all very helpful things to know. Thank you. Regarding the issue of women religious, wouldn’t the same dynamics be true of men in religious orders? They are bound to their superiors and not the local bishop, and from what I understand, it isn’t a problem. Why would it be a problem for women who are involved in ministry either inside or outside their congregation?

The major superior of a male religious order is an ordinary and therefore holds a position of similar rank to a bishop. Because of that the promise of obedience as a deacon and as a religious would be given to the same person. There is no need for a religious deacon to have “divided loyalties” and therefore can still function withing the context of the community. This is no different than religious priests for the last 1500 years.

 

[Corki]

The major superior of a male religious order is an ordinary and therefore holds a position of similar rank to a bishop. Because of that the promise of obedience as a deacon and as a religious would be given to the same person. There is no need for a religious deacon to have “divided loyalties” and therefore can still function withing the context of the community. This is no different than religious priests for the last 1500 years.

Also, if I am not mistaken (and I very well might be), there are not many religious orders that have instituted the permanent diaconate. There are transitional deacons, of course, but most men who are not called to the priesthood in a religious order are brothers rather than deacons.

 

[Usige]

Also, if I am not mistaken (and I very well might be), there are not many religious orders that have instituted the permanent diaconate. There are transitional deacons, of course, but most men who are not called to the priesthood in a religious order are brothers rather than deacons.

My ecclesiology professor assures me that there are religious permanent deacons, but I have never actually met one. I would assume it is for similar reasons that you rarely see a secular deacon that is not married or a widower. In the case or a religious perhaps they simply feel their religious vocation serves similar needs as the diaconate?

I have no proof (having never met one), but I would suspect that this would only be in active orders like the Franciscans. I’d have to think of how a permanent deacon would live out their ministry in a cloistered/contemplative order. That being said, it is always possible that a friar that was on the path to priesthood might stop after being ordained to the diaconate. While we often treat a transitional and permanent deacon as related, but different beasts, they are no different from a sacramental standpoint.

 

[deaconjohnO]

I ap However, remember that many women already have advance degrees in theology or even their MDiv. Many women have been doing specific ministries for decades. My guess is that the first rounds of ordinations will have their own unique way of fast tracking qualified people through. That’s just a guess, but it is quite likely.

Degrees and academic training do not determine a person pastorally equipped. It would be a total shame to give preference without the voice of the community a time honored evaluation of suitability.

Those women who have their degrees and have been doing specific ministries need ordination for what reason?

I hope your answer isn’t “authority” or “power” because those are not the charisms of a deacon.

 

[phil19034]

However, remember that many women already have advance degrees in theology or even their MDiv. Many women have been doing specific ministries for decades. My guess is that the first rounds of ordinations will have their own unique way of fast tracking qualified people through. That’s just a guess, but it is quite likely.

Men who have Masters or Doctorates in Divinity and/or Theology don’t get fast tracked. They might be able to test out of a class or two, but a huge part of the time in Seminary is focused on prayer and discernment. You don’t get to test out of those.

Furthermore, not all Deacons receive Master’s degrees after their 5-7 years in the seminary.

 

[twf]

I appreciate all the hard work both you and the parish community went through in discernment as well as training. If ordaining women as deacons goes through and becomes a reality for women, there will be a process for them also. However, remember that many women already have advance degrees in theology or even their MDiv. Many women have been doing specific ministries for decades. My guess is that the first rounds of ordinations will have their own unique way of fast tracking qualified people through. That’s just a guess, but it is quite likely.

Anglican priests who have been ordained Catholic priests via the Ordinariates often underwent a very accelerated formation period for similar reasons.

 

[Corki]

Anglican priests who have been ordained Catholic priests via the Ordinariates often underwent a very accelerated formation period for similar reasons.

In those cases, the “fast tracking” wasn’t due to academic credentials. The Anglican priests had already completed discernment and formation as well as served in ministry albeit without valid Orders. It was a recognition that the call to the priesthood had already been discerned.

An advanced degree doesn’t fast track anyone into the diaconate. It doesn’t for men currently so why would it for a woman in a parallel formation? The last thing the Church needs is some kind of affirmative action plan to accelerate the process of having women in a new role for the optics or to make some kind of statement about equality.