Pope John Paul II

[belgianwaffles9]

You’re wrong. Tree huggers say a tree is god, but it’s not. Just like Muslims say allah is god, but he is not. The only Faith that CORRECTLY has taught WHO God is, is the Holy Catholic Faith. Period. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost=GOD. Ask a Muslim if he or she believes this and tell them this is allah. I know a Muslim and he’d rather DIE than admit this.

Um, i believe what was meant was: is ‘allah’ the arabic word for ‘God.’ And the answer is YES. Catholics and other Christians who speak arabic use the word 'Allah in all their prayers and liturgies.

What YOU meant was that the god (‘allah’) of Islam is not the same, which he isnt.

 

[whatevergirl]

Would you kiss the Koran knowing it spews false teachings and total lies about Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? How do you unite yourself to CHRIST kissing something that is full of blasphemous words about Our Dear Lord?

God help us all…

I personally would not–but we don’t know the reason why Pope JP2 did this.

 

[marymonde]

Um, i believe what was meant was: is ‘allah’ the arabic word for ‘God.’ And the answer is YES. Catholics and other Christians who speak arabic use the word 'Allah in all their prayers and liturgies.

What YOU meant was that the god (‘allah’) of Islam is not the same, which he isnt.

I will, however, speak up when I think there has been a wrong. It would be just as bad if if I said I would rather die that worship Dio just because I didn’t know Spanish, when, in fact, Dio is Spanish for God.

If we were talking about Christians who use the word Allah in context with the Catholic Church teaches, then I would comprehend, but this thread is about Islam’s interpretation of allah, which I reject. That is why I used a small ‘a’.

I hope I clarified myself in a more positive light.

 

[whatevergirl]

Um, i believe what was meant was: is ‘allah’ the arabic word for ‘God.’ And the answer is YES. Catholics and other Christians who speak arabic use the word 'Allah in all their prayers and liturgies.

What YOU meant was that the god (‘allah’) of Islam is not the same, which he isnt.

We have muslim friends…and yes, this is a great way of describing this…although, my friends believe (or want me to believe) that they believe in the same God. The difference is that we believe in the blessed Trinity, which they wholeheartedly do not believe in. They don’t believe Jesus was crucified. Our God is triune. So, when my friends and I have had past discussions on this–it goes round and round…because they see us as polytheistic (because we believe in the triune God, they think this is three gods…Father, Son and Holy Spirit) but we view ourselves as monotheistic (we ARE monotheistic). The only thing I find odd that Pope JP2 said was that we believe in the same God, because if you follow just the fundamental differences, you can see that the God of Islam is not triune, and this not our ‘same’ God.

 

[marymonde]

I personally would not–but we don’t know the reason why Pope JP2 did this.

whatevergirl,

Believe me, I understand you trying to explain this action. I do. In fact, there was an incident where Pope St. Pius X prayed at a Jewish cemetary. His assistant, Cdl. Merry de Val (sp??) approached him and told him this caused more questions than answers as to why he would have publically prayed at a non-Catholic graveyard for people who died without belonging to the Catholic Church. Instead of letting doubt and rumors fly, this Holy Father EXPLAINED his actions, he didnt’ keep silence. He clarified what he did so as not to cause the Catholic faithful scandal. He prayed there because he said there were Catholics buried in the cemetary, that died being baptized at the last moment of their lives without their families knowing they possessed the Holy Faith. So, he wasn’t praying for the Jews to get to heaven, he was praying for Catholics to be released from the pains of Purgatory.

Since the koran being kissed by a pope, there have been no explanations from Rome. There have been theories and people trying to explain the action in a positive light, but, no definitive meaning to a truly problematic act. Silence to those Catholics who had their faith shaken. Whatevergirl, this is not right. It just is not.

I feel so bad that this is even an issue and causes Catholics to be at odds with each other. But I for one remember what my mama taught me long ago, it’s not infallible, but a good lesson nonetheless…“Actions speak louder than words”. She taught me to be guarded on how I presented myself in public. People do pick up on your outward actions and make definate opinions on your character.

 

[whatevergirl]

whatevergirl,

Believe me, I understand you trying to explain this action. I do. In fact, there was an incident where Pope St. Pius X prayed at a Jewish cemetary. His assistant, Cdl. Merry de Val (sp??) approached him and told him this caused more questions than answers as to why he would have publically prayed at a non-Catholic graveyard for people who died without belonging to the Catholic Church. Instead of letting doubt and rumors fly, this Holy Father EXPLAINED his actions, he didnt’ keep silence. He clarified what he did so as not to cause the Catholic faithful scandal. He prayed there because he said there were Catholics buried in the cemetary, that died being baptized at the last moment of their lives without their families knowing they possessed the Holy Faith. So, he wasn’t praying for the Jews to get to heaven, he was praying for Catholics to be released from the pains of Purgatory.

Since the koran being kissed by a pope, there have been no explanations from Rome. There have been theories and people trying to explain the action in a positive light, but, no definitive meaning to a truly problematic act. Silence to those Catholics who had their faith shaken. Whatevergirl, this is not right. It just is not.

I feel so bad that this is even an issue and causes Catholics to be at odds with each other. But I for one remember what my mama taught me long ago, it’s not infallible, but a good lesson nonetheless…“Actions speak louder than words”. She taught me to be guarded on how I presented myself in public. People do pick up on your outward actions and make definate opinions on your character.

I am surprised that he said this–and kissed the Koran. I think he could have explained why–now that you supply that above info, it does make sense to question this. I am not saying I didn’t question it–I just saw him in such a holy light, it’s hard to see that he would deliberately do something that brought such scandal…you know? I still hesitate to pass a judgement on why he could have–but an explanation would have helped no doubt! ha Thank you for explaining this to me.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

If we were talking about Christians who use the word Allah in context with the Catholic Church teaches, then I would comprehend, but this thread is about Islam’s interpretation of allah, which I reject. That is why I used a small ‘a’.

I hope I clarified myself in a more positive light.

Yes, i understood what you meant, and your clarification was helpful for everyone, i’m sure.

Your post brings up a good point. Maybe we should all make sure to differentiate better by saying “Allah in Islam” or “the Islamic view of God” or something similar to distinguish between what some of the Eastern Catholics and other Eastern Christians on here call God every day.

I think, technically speaking, Islam tries to worship the same God we do, and thinks it is. Islam worships the god of Abraham, who is the same god as we worship. However, they are not worshipping God, or, at least, are not worshipping him correctly, because of their disagreements over the nature of that God, which you explained.

 

[IsaacSheen]

As for kissing the Quran. Who knows what he meant by it. We can’t really ask him now.

I would say, don’t bother dwelling on it. It’s either one of two things:

1.) He understood our teachings much more and was demonstrating an understanding we can’t comprehend at this point

or

2.) He made a mistake. I’m not saying he’s a saint, but even if he were, there are saints who have made mistakes.

 

[JMMK]

Building on Belgianwaffles9’s post, yes Abraham is the primary link to the statement about it being the same God.

This is purely me here, but I think you can read between the lines of what he said to translate to “You all worship our God, you just don’t realize it yet.” I don’t think he would have gotten a warm reception if he actually said it like that though.

Just because you ‘worship’ God doesn’t mean you do it right.

 

[whatevergirl]

I am surprised that he said this–and kissed the Koran. I think he could have explained why–now that you supply that above info, it does make sense to question this. I am not saying I didn’t question it–I just saw (and still do!) him in such a holy light, it’s hard to see that he would deliberately do something that brought such scandal…you know? I still hesitate to pass a judgement on why he could have–but an explanation would have helped no doubt! ha Thank you for explaining this to me.

 

[whatevergirl]

*I wanted to add to my above post that I still do see him in a holy light…I love our beloved Pope JP2. There had to have been a good reason.

 

[Arnobius]

*I wanted to add to my above post that I still do see him in a holy light…I love our beloved Pope JP2. There had to have been a good reason.

Basically put, those who call JP2 a liberal pope or a heretic are those who declare their own infallibility on the matter, and would never consider the possibility that they err in their interpretation of events or evaluation of his character.

They assume an a priori assumption that anything not in accord with their views is heretical.

Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.(1 Co 10:12).

 

[DustinsDad]

I posted earlier concerning John Paul and his bowing to and kissing of the Quran. In 1985, Pope John Paul II declared to an enraptured audience of thousands of Muslim youths, “Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common as believers and as human beings…We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God…” This leads me to believe that his kissing of and bowing to the Quran was something more than a thankyou. Even if it were just a thankyou, why would you thank a false-god serving man for giving you a book that is in complete contradiction to the Word of God (The Bible)? Lets talk here folks. And dont play the Islam is a peaceful religion card.

Well, it all comes down to the pope is not impeccable. The protection of Infallibility doesn’t go that far.

My suspicion is that JP2’s actions have something to do with his upbringing - he was shaped by the horrors of war and probably had it deep in his psyche not to offend or to do anything that would cause conflict.

Why he towed the line on moral issues and danced in the gray areas in theolgical ones I’m not sure.

DustinsDad

 

[NewPerspective]

Some made mention of the commonalities between Catholics and Muslims. Such commonalities are not things I would be proud of as a subscriber to the CC. Islam is not a peaceful religion nor will it ever be until they inherit the land that was promised to Abraham Isaac and Jacob, which will never happen because Israel and the City of Jerusalem belongs to the Jew. Israel will never again be divided into to two nations like what these godless-nations are trying to make happen. To say that because Muslims profess that they serve the God of Abraham, who according to the Quran had no Son, does not mean by any stretch that they serve the same God. Bottom line is the God of Israel is the One True God and has remembered His people, Israel, and will deliver them in due time. We need to stand up, speak out, and support the State of Israel in these violent times that the prophecies of the Bible revealed to us. As a Christian nation, we need to stand for Israel when no one else will.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

*I wanted to add to my above post that I still do see him in a holy light…I love our beloved Pope JP2. There had to have been a good reason.

Well, sometimes there just isnt a good reason. I hope he had a reason which he thought was good, but as St. Bernard of Clairvaux said, “Hell is full of good wishes and desires.”

(Not to say JPII is in hell - personally, i highly doubt that. But the point is, what someone thinks is a good reason can still be a very wrong one before God)

Arnobius:

Basically put, those who call JP2 a liberal pope or a heretic are those who declare their own infallibility on the matter, and would never consider the possibility that they err in their interpretation of events or evaluation of his character.

How is calling JPII a liberal pope declaring my own infallibility? That is patently absurd. In fact, it is YOUR comment which smacks of self-importance and self-believed inerrancy.

I call him a liberal pope because the Church became more liberal under his watch. I make no judement against his faith or his spirrituality, because I am in no position to accurately comment on that.

Of course i can err in my interpretations of events. But i feel that in this circustance, that is, accurately labeling JPII a liberal, my statements can be backed up by centuries of continuous Church traditions. JPII was, i feel, a great person, and he did good things for the Church that we should all be thankful for (FSSP, anyone?). But he was still a rather liberal Pope. You can’t argue against that.

 

[Church_Militant]

Some made mention of the commonalities between Catholics and Muslims. Such commonalities are not things I would be proud of as a subscriber to the CC.

So we should deny any truth that some one else professes unless they ascribe the exact same beliefs we do?

That’s pretty lame, and one reason that so much of n-C evangelism fails to even win a hearing. They fail to do even as St. Paul did in Athens and acknowledge a common ground to begin dialog and evangelism.

Islam is not a peaceful religion nor will it ever be until they inherit the land that was promised to Abraham Isaac and Jacob, which will never happen because Israel and the City of Jerusalem belongs to the Jew. Israel will never again be divided into to two nations like what these godless-nations are trying to make happen.

Rhetoric…same old same old. This is basically just another fundamentalist who mixes his political views with his religion. I often have to wonder if they realize that they are essentially doing the same that Muslim fundamentalists are doing…and that it results in the same vitriolic rhetoric that gets them nowhere.

To say that because Muslims profess that they serve the God of Abraham, who according to the Quran had no Son, does not mean by any stretch that they serve the same God.

No one said they have the fullness of truth.

Bottom line is the God of Israel is the One True God and has remembered His people, Israel, and will deliver them in due time.

Of this I have no doubt at all.

We need to stand up, speak out, and support the State of Israel in these violent times that the prophecies of the Bible revealed to us.

Support of Israel as a state is a secular political issue that “we” can respond to as we see fit, but it is only a moral issue so far as peace and justice for everyone in the area is concerned. Fundamentalist n-Cs often appear to forget that Bible prophecies will come to pass with or without any action and influence of American believers.

As a Christian nation, we need to stand for Israel when no one else will.

Even as Carl Schurz (1829–1906) said of our own country on February 29, 1872 “My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” The same should apply to Israel or any nation IMO.

 

[marymol]

Not having read through all the posts, unsure if this has already been addressed .

What comes to mind is that occasion in the temple, when our Lord tells His parents - " I must be about My Father’s business." ’ and they did not understand Him ’ …and He , as far as we know , did not give an explanation so much in words immediately …

Pope John Paul 11 …The Mercy Pope …entrusted with The Father’s Mission ’ Bring them all to My Sacred Heart ’ ( Divine Mercy Novena prayers )…sinners , heretics , lukewarm…

’ It is God who judges me’ - words of St.Paul to Corinthians …

And us , who have to give an account of every useless word , may we be humble to recognise that sometimes , we too may not understand …yet His Business is being carried out …such as bringing healing to a world that had /is been torn apart in the ravages of warfare … spiritual and physical …and where the healing balm of Mercy is the God given remedy …( has it not always been - just that we recognise it only sparsely …)

A Pope , who has shown Mercy , in deed… in being faithful to The Business he has been entrusted with …and whose wisdom and insight into what is most precious to us - life … marriage … is to help to bring in The Kingdom …to even many lukewarm, unbelieving hearts …

The enemy mighy be ever envious …

May The Precious Blood protect us !

 

[Arnobius]

How is calling JPII a liberal pope declaring my own infallibility? That is patently absurd. In fact, it is YOUR comment which smacks of self-importance and self-believed inerrancy.

Quite the contrary, I can recognize my own errancy and that is why I do not presume to judge the Pope as being “liberal” or “conservative” based on my own sense of orthodoxy

I call him a liberal pope because the Church became more liberal under his watch. I make no judement against his faith or his spirrituality, because I am in no position to accurately comment on that.

I am glad you do not comment on his spirituality but there are others that do believe they can do so based on their personal leanings.

As for the claims of being more liberal, I think you must not have been old enough to see the state of the Church prior to his becoming Pope. His pontificate was in fact the one that reacted to the societal rebellion of the 1960s and 70s, bringing things back in line.

Of course i can err in my interpretations of events. But i feel that in this circustance, that is, accurately labeling JPII a liberal, my statements can be backed up by centuries of continuous Church traditions. JPII was, i feel, a great person, and he did good things for the Church that we should all be thankful for (FSSP, anyone?). But he was still a rather liberal Pope. You can’t argue against that.

Indeed I can argue against that. He was truly an orthodox Pope, if one has bothered to listen to what he said and taught. One can point to his mistakes of course, but one can do that with every Pope, including St. Pius X who did some things which could be considered “liberal.”

With the Church, there is not liberal and conservative. There is orthodoxy and heterodoxy, and those who are heterodox, whether “liberal” or “conservative” are in the wrong.

But I think the greatest argument against his being a liberal is to read what actual liberals have said about him, as Pope John Paul II was truly hated by the liberals. Remember these are people who could not wait for him to die so they could get a “liberal” pope who would undo his actions. (False hope of course)

 

[belgianwaffles9]

Quite the contrary, I can recognize my own errancy and that is why I do not presume to judge the Pope as being “liberal” or “conservative” based on my own sense of orthodoxy

It’s not my ‘sense of orthodoxy’ that i use as a basis; it isnt some personal view, or personal interpretation. I look at JPII’s actions in the light of centuries of sacred traditions. There were additions and alterations.

As i have said in other posts, i think a lot of JPII’s more liberal actions, the ones that really tick off traditionalists, arent really his fault as much as we sometimes think they are. I really think his papacy, especially the last bit of it, was hijacked by the left wing entrenched in the Vatican as he grew more and more frail.

Athanasius, in his excellent blog, comments on this:

athanasiuscm.blogspot.com/2007/08/mai-santo-re-examining-john-paul-ii.html
athanasiuscm.blogspot.com/2005/11/john-paul-ii-should-not-be-canonized.html

As he says, “these are of course not judgements of John Paul II’s soul, but criticisms of his public actions which are in the open for everyone to view.”

As for the claims of being more liberal, I think you must not have been old enough to see the state of the Church prior to his becoming Pope. His pontificate was in fact the one that reacted to the societal rebellion of the 1960s and 70s, bringing things back in line.

I can understand what you mean. I do not deny that JPII took strong stances on certain issues, to the chagrin of liberals, such as birth control, which he handled excellently. But I do believe that, under his papacy, liberalism became more entrenched in the Vatican. Again, i repeat, i think some of this was done behind his back or against his will, as he grew more and more frail.

JPII was, as some say, ‘a rock star.’ He brought a lot of attention to the Church, and made the Papacy a very powerful and relevant position, which are all positives. But some people say, and they may be right, that JPII had less focus on the internal administration of the Church. Other people have discussed this in far better ways than i can, but i see their point, at least a bit.

 

[Genesis315]

First, in regards to these thing such as the Pope kissing the Koran being constantly dragged out–it is always best to remember this maxim for Christian Perfection by St. Alphonsus Liguori:

1. To speak well of all, and to excuse the intention when you cannot defend the action.

From what I have read, in Arab cultures one receives a gift with a kiss–I think it best to give him the benefit of the doubt as to intention and assume he was just doing that and not making it equal to the Scriptures or the Muslim religion equal to the Catholic–if we read his Magisterium we see that he definitely did not teach this.

As for Muslims worshipping the same God, this is the traditional Catholic approach.

In Catholic theology, when people worship one God–like the Jews or Muslims–it is considered to be the one true God. In Acts 17:23, St. Paul tells pagans they are worshipping the one true God:

“For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you.”

Here are some more sources for this idea that Muslims worship the one true God:

Pope St. Gregory VII (11th century) to a Muslim prince: ‘Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.’

See also the chapter on Islam from **St. John Damascene’s “Fount of Knowledge” **where he says the Ishmaelites (as he calls them) used to be idolaters but now are heretics who acknowledge the true God, but deny the divinity of Christ, as the Arians did (he says Islam is based on Arianism).

Catechism of Pope St. Pius X : 12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.

Catholic Encyclopedia: As in ecclesiastical language those who by baptism have received faith in Jesus Christ and have pledged Him their fidelity and called the faithful, so the name infidel is given to those who have not been baptized. The term applies not only to all who are ignorant of the true God, such as pagans of various kinds, but also to those who adore Him but do not recognize Jesus Christ, as Jews and Mohammedans.

Also see this chapter on Islam in Hillair Belloc’s "Great Heresies."
ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT

Second Vatican Council: The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.