Pope JP2 a Liberal?

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Sure said:
The thread is asking if he was a liberal. It would seem to me that to answer the question one would look at the totality of his significant actions in order to make a determination.

Some good things that he did:
  • Affirmed the existence of Objective Moral Truth
  • Gave doctrinal clarification that the priesthood is reserved to men.
  • Reinforced Thomism and the importance of Natural Law in moral theology.
  • Refutes the errors of proportionalism (modern relativism) and affirms the Church’s teaching of intrinsece malum.
  • Created the FSSP and helped to preserve the traditional Mass.
  • Defined the primacy of the right to life and the utter evil of abortion.
  • Affirmed and clarified the wisdom of the Church’s teaching against contraception and the theology behind it.
  • Ended Communism in Eastern Europe.
  • Stressed the importance of Mary as a model of Motherhood and Womanhood.
I know there are a lot more, perhaps others can add???
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EXCELLENT.

Thread was not an invitation to condemn a Pope as liberal!
 
catharina said:
Sure, forgive me for jumping in here but acc to the text of Post #344, you are quoting me as saying something I have never said (to anyone Or even thought!)

It reads this way in your post:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by catharina

Are you saying that Pope Benedict made an “ex cathedra” statement regarding Assisi?"

Quite simply, without reviewing any posts, I know for certain that I’ve never said that because I do not speak that way nor do I even think that way. Would you mind, if possible, going back to the post and saying how the misquoting happened and then correcting it? If you can do so, thank you very much. (If you simply want to agree with me now that through some “font error” it’s clear that I was misquoted, that’s fine too.)
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You are correct. Stmaria said it and the quote got messed up somehow. My apologies!
 
Sure said:
You are correct. Stmaria said it and the quote got messed up somehow. My apologies!
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No problem and thank you.
I already know that you are not in the habit of misquoting people.

:o
 
🙂 Was Jesus a Liberal? If a person thought of this he would gain some wisdom. If we could all put ourselves in the other persons shoes, we might gain some wisdom. I no more think of our precious Pope John Paul II as a liberal or as a dictator. I believe that he was given the popes duties at the time that our church needed him. He was our pontiff at a very difficult time in history, but he was very much loved by the Catholics as well as the other Christians all over the world. He went to all places throughout the world to try to bring together all of the people together. Yes, they did have a person try to end his life, but by the triumphant Blessed Virgin Mary, crushing the head of the beast, Pope John Paul II became a transformed man, a man that every person who has come close to death can look at and say that he was a saintly man who forgave his attacker, just like Jesus Christ forgave us all who put him on the cross with our sins.👍
 
nestacal said:
🙂 Was Jesus a Liberal? If a person thought of this he would gain some wisdom. If we could all put ourselves in the other persons shoes, we might gain some wisdom. I no more think of our precious Pope John Paul II as a liberal or as a dictator. I believe that he was given the popes duties at the time that our church needed him. He was our pontiff at a very difficult time in history, but he was very much loved by the Catholics as well as the other Christians all over the world. He went to all places throughout the world to try to bring together all of the people together. Yes, they did have a person try to end his life, but by the triumphant Blessed Virgin Mary, crushing the head of the beast, Pope John Paul II became a transformed man, a man that every person who has come close to death can look at and say that he was a saintly man who forgave his attacker, just like Jesus Christ forgave us all who put him on the cross with our sins.👍
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Lovely statement. Thanks for sharing your view.
 
Reading through the various reply and the dekliberate attempt to misrepresent the intentions of JP2, reminds me of the endless battles Jesus had with the Pharisees. Our modern pharisees need prayers.
 
chucks said:
Reading through the various reply and the dekliberate attempt to misrepresent the intentions of JP2, reminds me of the endless battles Jesus had with the Pharisees. Our modern pharisees need prayers.
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Nobody is misrepresenting his intentions, they likely were very good. Some decisions, however, were not wise (unless one wants to argue that no pope can make a mistake). Mistakes don’t make a person evil, and the only ones who come close to preaching that are sedevacantists…I don’t think any of them are here, but I could be wrong.
 
I remember the words on His Holiness upon his election, “Praised be Jesus Christ! Dear brothers and sisters, we are still all very saddened by the death of the very dear Pope John Paul I. And now the most eminent cardinals have called a new bishop of Rome. They called him from a far-away country…far, but always near in the communion of faith and the Christian tradition. I was afraid in receiving this nomination, but I did it in the spirit of obedience to Our Lord and with total trust in his Mother, the Most Holy Madonna. I don’t know if I can express myself well in your—in our—Italian language. But if I make a mistake, you will correct me. And so I introduce myself to you all, to confess our common faith, our hope, our trust in the Mother of Christ and of the Church, and also to begin again on this path of history and of the Church with the help of God and with that of men.”
 
Pope_Noah_I said:
I remember the words on His Holiness upon his election, “Praised be Jesus Christ! Dear brothers and sisters, we are still all very saddened by the death of the very dear Pope John Paul I. And now the most eminent cardinals have called a new bishop of Rome. They called him from a far-away country…far, but always near in the communion of faith and the Christian tradition. I was afraid in receiving this nomination, but I did it in the spirit of obedience to Our Lord and with total trust in his Mother, the Most Holy Madonna. I don’t know if I can express myself well in your—in our—Italian language. But if I make a mistake, you will correct me. And so I introduce myself to you all, to confess our common faith, our hope, our trust in the Mother of Christ and of the Church, and also to begin again on this path of history and of the Church with the help of God and with that of men.”
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You’re joking, yes?

I don’t recall how many languages JP II spoke fluently, 16? 26? Humbly he welcomed correction of linguistic mis-steps.

Also, I wonder: are you saying remember the greeting in toto?
 
stmaria said:
The question of this thread is about Pope John Paul and whether or not he is a liberal. In my opinion he was a little of both. Compared to past Popes, in some respects, he was liberal.
In the 1983 code of Canon Law he allowed, for the first time in the history of the Church, non-Catholics to receive communion. There were some conditions attached. But these conditions did not prevent President Bill Clinton from receiving communion in1998. This was during his adulterous affair. Protestant Brother Roger Schultz also received communion at the funeral of Pope John Paul.

"whoever eats of the lamb and is not a member of the Church, has profaned;" [Pope Pius IX Amantissimus # 3]

“**Whoever eats the lamb outside of this house is unholy. Those who were not in the ark of Noah perished in the flood.” [Pope Gregory XVI Commissum Divinitus **

In 1980 Pope John Paul ruled against allowing women altar servers then after the abuse became widespread **he decided in 1994 to allow it.

Pope Benedict XIV, Encyclical Allatae Sunt, July 26, 1755

“Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: ‘Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.’ We too have forbidden this practice in the same words…”
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This does sound Liberal of Pope JP2.
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stmaria said:
Many of his quotes regarding false religions I find in contradiction with the traditional teachings of the Church. In my opinion this gives the members of these false religions absolutely no reason to seek conversion to the True Faith.
FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE
TO THE HINDUS ON THE FEAST OF DIWALI 2006
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20061016_diwali_en.html

Dear Hindu Friends,
1.As people seeking for **the Absolute **you will pause for a short while on your spiritual journey and celebrate joyfully Deepavali, your ancient religious feast, which for you signifies the victory of truth over untruth, light over darkness, good over evil and life over death. On behalf of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue I wish Hindus all over the world **a happy feast of Diwali **
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Again, this sounds more than just liberal.

**दीपवलि (Sanskrit) - diipavali
**
**Does anyone within this forum know what Diwali actually represents?
**
For those who do not, I shall endeavor to provide some information.
What it truly represents is the Worship of the Great Hindu Gods.

FIVE DAY DURATION OF HINDU WORSHIP:

Day 1: Dhanatrayodashi
  • The Worship of the God Dhanvantri who arose from the churning of oceans by the Gods and Demons. He established a way of life and code of conduct, and the basis of the Ayurvedic system.
Day 2: Naraka Chaturdashi

**पूजां कृ **(Sanskrit) which is a puja i.e. - Worship (english)
This day is Worship and offerings to Lord Sri Krishna/ Lord Sri Vishnu for the defeat the demon Narakasura.
Children utilize firecrackers to symbolize that Lord Sri Krishna/Vishnu (their Gods) defeated the demon. Also, later in the day Lakshmi is worshiped.

Day 3:Lakshmi Puja

लक्ष्मी पूजां क (Sanskrit) - worship of Laksmi
This day is very important as it signifies the** Worship of the Great Gods, Lakshmi and Ganesha, as they are Supreme **concerning wealth and auspicious beginnings.

Day 4: Govardhan Puja

Worship pf Lord Krishna and His teachings that all must Worship Nature. He defeated Indra on this day.

Day 5: Bhayitika

भौतिक (Sanskrit) - the physical mark

Brothers and Sisters perform a Hindu ritual with the use of various substances such as Ghee(purified butter), Camphor, Sandalwood/vermillion paste, etc. The riual is known as an Aarti (कल्प -(Sanskrit - ritual). It is a purificatory Blessing and worship of a Deva (देव - (Sanskrit- for God) or person. A tilak is placed on the brother’s foreheads. It is to ward off malefic influences, the ‘evil eye’ so to speak. In other words, this is a ***superstitious belief.
Now I know a little since I have Hinduism within my family.
Do any of you still agree with ‘The Pope John Paul 2(and others) Ecumenical Strategy’?
 
St_Isidore said:
Do any of you still agree with ‘The Pope John Paul 2(and others) Ecumenical Strategy’?
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Absolutely.

Praying with someone, or wishing them well on a day that they are focusing on God as they understand Him, does not equate to worshipping their God. What it does is show respect for them as people and honor their search for God.

Until one reaches that point where one is perceived to be working with someone in their search, they will have no credibility in trying to bring their Catholic faith into the picture. Those who believe that you can really just walk up to someone with their own culture, history, and religious beliefs and have them just drop everything because you told them their religion is “false” are truly delusional in my opinion. Until you can model the love of God of which you speak and respect them as the beloved children of God that they are, you cannot even begin to help their hearts toward conversion. As St. Francis of Assisi said, “preach the gospel always; use words if necessary.”

When one is known to be speaking with true love and concern for the person on the receiving end, the “hard truths” that need to be expressed can be expressed and heard. If one is simply perceived as looking down on the one receiving and being told “because I said so”, I have yet to see a valid example of a true conversion.

It’s not really much different than trying to get things through to teenagers. You can tell them to believe whatever you want, but they are going to believe what they will based on the credibility of the person they hear it from. One with no credibility will at best be politely ignored; at worst you’ll get rolled eyes or outright rebellion and a turn in the opposite direction.

As St. Paul said, one has to be all things to all men that some may be saved. He was probably the original ecumenist.

Peace,
 
St_Isidore said:
Now I know a little since I have Hinduism within my family.
Do any of you still agree with ‘The Pope John Paul 2(and others) Ecumenical Strategy’?
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I have numerous atheists, pagans, and protestants in my family. If the creeds established by someone other than God approve of the strategy, there’s a problem. No, I do not support it. Saints and Popes warned of the negative effects false ecumenism would have; the results have shown them right. Why support it?
 
joanofarc3 said:
I have numerous atheists, pagans, and protestants in my family. If the creeds established by someone other than God approve of the strategy, there’s a problem. No, I do not support it. Saints and Popes warned of the negative effects false ecumenism would have; the results have shown them right. Why support it?
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What does this mean?

If we don’t reach out to those others in love (as Mother Theresa did) how do we convert them?

Shouting “YOU, CONVERT NOW!” doesn’t tend to yield conversions. Talking with people and telling them what you believe does! But, in order to do that you have to start a dialogue with the person. You have to listen…not in order to be convinced by THEIR statement, but to open THEIR hearts to hear the Truth. Think about when you have helped someone convert. Did the process only involve you telling them what to believe? Or did it involve them asking questions and talking about what they currently believe. That’s not false ecumenism, it’s converting people.
 
Sure said:
What does this mean?

If we don’t reach out to those others in love (as Mother Theresa did) how do we convert them?

Shouting “YOU, CONVERT NOW!” doesn’t tend to yield conversions. Talking with people and telling them what you believe does! But, in order to do that you have to start a dialogue with the person. You have to listen…not in order to be convinced by THEIR statement, but to open THEIR hearts to hear the Truth. Think about when you have helped someone convert. Did the process only involve you telling them what to believe? Or did it involve them asking questions and talking about what they currently believe. That’s not false ecumenism, it’s converting people.
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Some hold that view, but that isn’t true ecumenism either. True ecumenism is described in Mortalium Animos (??). We know that “convert now ob be damned” doesn’t work…after all, not all trads are sedevacantists. joanofarc’s point was that the ecumenism that is practiced today (and approved) has already been condemned. There are extremists both ways so we all have to be careful.
 
ncjohn;2976626]Absolutely.
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Praying with someone, or wishing them well on a day that they are focusing on God as they understand Him, does not equate to worshipping their God. What it does is show respect for them as people and honor their search for God
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.

You can’t be serious.When will this liberal nonsense stop.The god they are praying to is a FALSE god. Maybe we should just smash the First Commandment. Maybe ncjohn you don’t think the First Commandment applies to modern man.
Until one reaches that point where one is perceived to be working with someone in their search, they will have no credibility in trying to bring their Catholic faith into the picture
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The Catholic faith is not in the picture. Conversion is no longer on the table. Vatican II was over 40 years ago. There has been no effort to bring false religions the TRUTH. Instead we get dialogue which leads to the false religions believing that they have the TRUTH.
Those who believe that you can really just walk up to someone with their own culture, history, and religious beliefs and have them just drop everything because you told them their religion is “false” are truly delusional in my opinion
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.

I recall hearing about someone called Jesus that did exactly that.

First epistle of John 4:2-3 “every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, while every spirit that fails to acknowledge him does not belong to God. Such is the spirit of the antichrist

1 Cor.10 20 “the gentiles sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to become sharers with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and likewise the table of demons."

“Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God; as God saith: ‘I will dwell in them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (II Cor. 6: 14-16)
 
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