Pope JPII backed praise for hiding abuse: Cardinal Hoyos

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Try proving this to the world. I’m surprised I haven’t heard this report in the news yet. When it does, the you-know-what is going to hit the fan.

I don’t know how to defend this.
The same infection hits the Church from time to time. In his small biography of St. Phillip Neri, Bouyer talks about the immoral state of the Church in Rome in the 1550s. We are at war, as St. Paul reminds us. with dominions and powers and principalities. We ourselves in our daily lives. Those high in the Church are not immune and many succumb.
 
The same infection hits the Church from time to time. In his small biography of St. Phillip Neri, Bouyer talks about the immoral state of the Church in Rome in the 1550s. We are at war, as St. Paul reminds us. with dominions and powers and principalities. We ourselves in our daily lives. Those high in the Church are not immune and many succumb.
St. Philip Neri was a man of great internal silence and also a man with a great sense of humor. He often laughed at the fact that people believed that humanity could be weak, but that human weakness was left at the door when men and women entered religious life or the priesthood. It just does not work that way and St. Philip Neri was very conscious of this. We live in a constant state of battle to conquer ourselves and we can only do so with the help of grace.

To paraphrase St. Philip Neri I would ask these simple questions. In the midst of these scandals and queries have any of the following happened?
  1. Has the Church changed the Ten Commandments?
  2. Has she changed the sacraments?
  3. Has she touched a single letter of Divine Revelation?
  4. Has the Church changed moral law?
  5. Has the Church changed the Creed?
  6. Has the Church changed any dogmas and doctrines?
  7. Has the Church changed the Lord’s Prayer?
  8. Has the Church changed the Beatitutdes?
  9. Has the Church stopped serving the poor?
  10. Has the Church stopped protecting the rights of the unborn?
As we can see, St. Philip Neri’s postulate is very correct. The Church does not change, despite the fact that the same people who are sinful in the world are the ones who also work in the Church.

I have always liked the thought that no matter how far we get from the truth, we cannot stop teaching truth. We have the promise of Christ and we have the prayers of the Blessed Mother, who is Mother of the Church. Christ will not abandon us. Mary will never stop praying for us.

It’s like this. When the President speaks, everyone listens. When his mother speaks, Jesus listens.

Do we have to be pro-active to solve our problems? Of course. Should we allow ourselves to lose our internal silence and our faith in the Church? Why should we?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Put yourself in the position of those of us who are religious or clergy. We are hurt, ashamed of what our confreres have done, disappointed, angry, and we feel helpless. Where do we begin to help those who have been hurt?
Brother JR - if it’s any solace - while there is a single person like you in the Catholic Hierarchy, the Church will prevail.

I’m so sorry you’ve been hurt. You don’t deserve it. Moreover, your purity of devotion is something a cynic like me finds terrifying and even inhuman.

By your mere existence, you provide comfort to those hurt in a way that a secularist like myself cannot. I can help by providing love and compassion, but not the spiritual strength that shines so brightly from you. I tell you this, by just existing you help. And I say that to you for two reasons. First, that it’s obviously true. Second, so that you will know it, and perhaps find a little relief from the pain you feel, for faults not your own.

Hugs, and God Bless,
Zoe
 
Oh yes, and in defence of John Paul II… it was common practice behind the Iron Curtain for the enemies of the Church to manufacture completely false allegations of paedophilia and other crimes against clergy.

To him, initially, this must have seemed to be just more of the same old same old he and other clergy had been the victim of for decades… When he suspected it wasn’t, he took action. I don’t see how he could have done more, under the circumstances.
 
Oh yes, and in defence of John Paul II… it was common practice behind the Iron Curtain for the enemies of the Church to manufacture completely false allegations of paedophilia and other crimes against clergy.

To him, initially, this must have seemed to be just more of the same old same old he and other clergy had been the victim of for decades… When he suspected it wasn’t, he took action. I don’t see how he could have done more, under the circumstances.
I wonder about this. I come from a very small town in VA. I spent the first 11 years of my religious life in formation. Thereforee, I had very little contact with the world. We lived in a cloister and we left it only to go to class at the university. I remember my first assignment to a large city. I was sent to the missions in Guayaquil, Ecuador in South America. Guayaquil is like NYC. I was overwhelmed, not by the size of the city and the traffic congestion. I was overwhelmed by the immorality that I found in the large city. I didn’t think that such things happened on a daily basis. I thought they were just case studies that we had to read in moral theology classes.

My shock is insignificant compared to the shock that Pope John Paul must have felt when it dawned on him what was really happening. He grew up and worked in a much more closed society than I did. It would have blown me away to the point that I would have been transported to a shock and trauma center.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Oh yes, and in defence of John Paul II… it was common practice behind the Iron Curtain for the enemies of the Church to manufacture completely false allegations of paedophilia and other crimes against clergy.

To him, initially, this must have seemed to be just more of the same old same old he and other clergy had been the victim of for decades… When he suspected it wasn’t, he took action. I don’t see how he could have done more, under the circumstances.
A very interesting point.

I am not entirely convinced that the infiltration of the Church by homosexuals was not a Communist plot to begin with. Suppose you’re the head of the KGB: obviously you want to destroy the Catholic Church. How to do it? Since the Church is based on faith, the obvious path would be to undermine its credibility. Since it’s a thorn in your side precisely on the subject of moral doctrines, the obvious sort of credibility to try to undermine would be the Church’s moral credibility. If the whole matter were a game, that seems like a very natural strategy to undertake from the standpoint of the other side.
 
A very interesting point.

I am not entirely convinced that the infiltration of the Church by homosexuals was not a Communist plot to begin with. Suppose you’re the head of the KGB: obviously you want to destroy the Catholic Church. How to do it? Since the Church is based on faith, the obvious path would be to undermine its credibility. Since it’s a thorn in your side precisely on the subject of moral doctrines, the obvious sort of credibility to try to undermine would be the Church’s moral credibility. If the whole matter were a game, that seems like a very natural strategy to undertake from the standpoint of the other side.
I believe that Zoe’s point is very interesting too. Because it had not occurred to me that John Paul came from a world of conspiracies. Under Communism the Polish Catholics were a thorn in their side. They were the only Christians that the Soviet Party had been unable to drive underground. The Poles had toughed it out. They had been led by such courageous people as Fr. Woytyla, Br. Maximilian Kolbe, Sr. Faustina.

For Pope John Paul, sinful priests existed, but they didn’t come in cartons. They were isolated cases. Suddenly he is confronted with a whole warehouse of them. He must have been in total disbelief. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that in a memo between John Paul and Cardinal Ratzinger about the Boston scandal, one of them said to the other, “The Americans love sensationalism.” They actually thought that it was media hype.

I believe that Zoe’s observation has much merit. Both of these men came from very sheltered existences. John Paul was a Pole and Benedict was Bavarian and a teacher most of his life. The Bavarians had suffered under the Nazis, because of their profound Catholicism in a predominant Protestant nation.

Maybe those of us who have not lived in such societies where there are conspiracies against the Church can’t put ourselves in their shoes. As I said before, I was blown away by this whole situation. I am one of the fortunate religious who has never lived in the same house with someone who has been accused of these crimes. But I know a religious house where there was an accusation. When I visited those friends, their sadness was just so obvious that you felt sad when you walked in. They were another order. But it does not matter. They are very holy men. They had one dysfunctional individual among them. When they realized this, they were in shock for months.

I had a very good friend who is a priest. He was caught in a scandal with a woman. I love this man very dearly. He even heard my confession many times. He celebrated the mass when I made vows. I cried for days when I heard about it. It hurt. This was my friend. I recall challenging him and asking him why. There was no answer. I struggled with my conscience for days.

I remembered that what he had done was very wrong and sinful. But I also remembered that I had made a solemn vow to obey St. Francis and his rule until death. The rule says that I must feel great love even for the most sinful priest, because only through the priest can I see anything of the physical presence of Christ and only through the priest can I obtain absolution for my sins.

My conscience struggled with my anger and indignation and my feeling of guilt for not living up to what I had vowed to obey. I was the hardest time in my life to feel trapped between anger, hurt, indignation and the duties of compassion, reverence for priests, and obedience.

I always go back to the same point. I go back to the cross and the silence of Mary. Her silence in the face of the heinous crime against her Son and yet she accepts humanity as her children. It was only through this meditation that I was able to listen to God rather than my emotions.

I hope this helps someone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The Cardinal said that Pope John Paul knew about his statement and I don’t see any reason why he would lie about this. Cardinal Hoyos has a reputation for being an honest man. That being said, there is historical context that we have to understand here. Peggy Noonan wrote a wonderful book about Pope John Paul. It’s very well written.

She points to one thing that many of us would not consider. John Paul came from a very different cultural context. Polish priests suffered a great deal for almost 1,000 years under different oppressive regimes. To the mind of a Pole, the very idea that a priest would sexually abuse anyone is beyond belief. These are not the priests that they grew up with. These were not the kind of priest that John Paul was or whom he admired. The men whom he admired and with whom he associated were men who suffered under the Nazis and the Communists. These were men who gave their lives for their people. It’s almost a naiveté to think that this is just the way priests are. But Noonan researched John Paul very carefully and found this to be very believable.

To people like Cardinal Hoyos and Pope John Paul this could not possibly be happening on a grand scale. In their minds, priests just didn’t do this. This was an attempt to protect all of those faithful priests, bishops and religious whom they knew, from their experiences growing up, in very oppressive situations where the clergy and the religious were the only ones who stood by the common man.

Was it a naïve way of thinking? Probably so. Was it malicious? I don’t think so. In those days when this letter was written they did not have all of the information that we have today. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
well said brother.

this is not something that we are used to it. i for one, in my mind this could never happened, a priest abusing kids. never in my mind, this came across.

the Church doesnt think like the world.
i think the media is going to play the clergy one against the other. that is the intention of the media. this is just another plan from satan to destroy the Church. it has already started. it is very demonic what is happening to the Church. we can see clergy saying they are separating themselves from this clergy man or from the other clergy man. it is horrifying.
 
I remembered that what he had done was very wrong and sinful. But I also remembered that I had made a solemn vow to obey St. Francis and his rule until death. The rule says that I must feel great love even for the most sinful priest, because only through the priest can I see anything of the physical presence of Christ and only through the priest can I obtain absolution for my sins.
My conscience struggled with my anger and indignation and my feeling of guilt for not living up to what I had vowed to obey. I was the hardest time in my life to feel trapped between anger, hurt, indignation and the duties of compassion, reverence for priests, and obedience.
I always go back to the same point. I go back to the cross and the silence of Mary. Her silence in the face of the heinous crime against her Son and yet she accepts humanity as her children. It was only through this meditation that I was able to listen to God rather than my emotions.
Thank you for being so open about your experience. Two things have made this scandal difficult for me. The first is that I did child welfare investigations for 8 years including many many sex abuse cases. Many things that I heard the Church saying and my local Archdiocese saying/doing were unjust and false and hurtful to the victims IMO and this has been very very difficult for me to see as a Catholic who knows what sex abuse is and what perpetrators are.
The second thing is that the priest before the one we have now at my parish got up after Mass one Sunday and announced that it was his last Mass there and forever as he was leaving our parish and the priesthood and getting married. I was devastated . It was like a slap in the face. He also denigrated the local Church in his little speech . I cried in the pew for half an hour. He got married the next day. When the scandal broke and kept coming, I felt afraid that priests everywhere were tainted or false.

Having said that, I am so thankful that Pope Benedict seems to take this crisis seriously. I thought his trip to the US was wonderful. I think this Year of the Priest was a perfect idea. It has reminded me what my obligations are toward the Church and the priesthood . To pray for her , to pray for our priests. If they are in great sin , to pray/sacrifice all the more. It is our job as the Church Militant to be the spiritual warriors here. How thankful we should be that we are allowed to do so! And you are correct- go to the Blessed Mother, go to Adoration, go to Mass as often as possible- you will find all you need to really fight for our priests and all of us, there are so many lost.
 
St. Francis and St. Catherine have the same perspective of priests.

I also think we lay people did not pray and do penance enough for them on a daily basis.

I think the problem is going back to bishops and ecclesiastical superiors being ‘too relative’, and not thoroughly disciplining errant priests. And the ‘Dialogues’ of Catherine even go on why superiors don’t do anything because they are attached to material possessions and their reputation and good favor, instead of trusting that the Lord will indeed continue to provide for them if they have falling out with ‘the crowd’ for disciplining.

And then she goes on saying then the errant priests are then sent from ‘monastery to monastery’ infecting the whole place.

So we are seeing the same weaknesses and failures as was that in Italy prior to the Reformation. Protestants who are so broken away from the sacraments hold on to impressions developed from the Reformation and it is so hard to reach them and get them beyond these images they have.

We are now beginning a purification just as we are now living in a culture described by Fr Entennauer. I have been afraid for what is coming for many years. I worked overseas in the missions. Abortion was legalized after I left, my state the first to do so. When I came back, it was like coming back to a moral morass…

There is a movement beginning…it being articulated more in women and seniors…that we are now needing to rest for a while and work on our faith and attitude so that in time we will be able to bring others to Christ.

On the side regarding ‘the smoke of satan entering the sanctuary’, I read a new take on that and this article says it was actually science that Pope Paul VI was referring to.

But the problem goes back to the bishops. They are the stars…the tail of the dragon has swept them down…the every day worldly compromises…I know pastors who are very discreet in upholding the Catholic faith and discipline. If there is some kind of fracas over the true faith, they are afraid the bishop will not support them as it has already happened in the past. So they take a low profile.

What is bad with that though is the corruption in the laity in the parishes…the power grabbers who misrepresent to get their way, and so to keep the peace, these types win…and the standard of Christ is then compromised.

I am finally in a parish where people just want to show the face of Christ to one another.

The only thing not clear—as it is only the Church that is supposed to discipline its priests…If they are removed from congregations and monasteries, and we know therapy doesn’t work, then what is the Church supposed to do with these priests? You can’t throw them out into society either because they will harm people there.
 
On the side regarding ‘the smoke of satan entering the sanctuary’, I read a new take on that and this article says it was actually science that Pope Paul VI was referring to.
According to Fr. Malachi Martin, it was an oblique reference to a satanic enthronement ceremony that took place in the Vatican in 1963. Fr. Martin worked in the Vatican at that time as an assistant to Cardinal Bea and also served as an advisor to more than one pope.
 
If they are removed from congregations and monasteries, and we know therapy doesn’t work, then what is the Church supposed to do with these priests? You can’t throw them out into society either because they will harm people there.
Why is it that this supposedly is the only area of medicine where there is nothing that can be done?! I’m not disputing that it is difficult to treat them but maybe that notion is printed in the media because it better suits the goals of the social liberals. The following article says more.

Pedophilia is not linked to celibacy, but homosexuality, says Cardinal Bertone

I’ve known the doctor quoted in the article for several years. He is a fine man. You might have seen him on EWTNs programs. This is his website.

“In fact, every priest whom I treated who was involved with children sexually had previously been involved in adult homosexual relationships.”
A former Vatican cardinal who congratulated a French bishop for hiding a sexually abusive priest has said he acted with the approval of the late Pope John Paul
There is some talk that it involved the seal of confession.
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=6074
 
I read Malachi’s book, ‘The Keys to the Blood’.

I have my story about priests…the one I first met was the superior general. I said I would not come there if they did not have American women. He said come, ‘there is a place ready for you.’

My very first impression of him was not good. Some how he reminded me of Fidel Castro. We had a falling out. When I was leaving he told me I didn’t make it there because he was a communist Christian and I was a capitalist. The church people there had a seminar. I went and a priest in a fraternal way warned me it the next day’s talk was about America.

He got up and showed these diagrams how we consume most of the world’s goods. He never mentioned once how America gives – or gave – the most to people in the world, the first to help, how we did not have concentration camps in our own country, or practiced government pogroms. The new government there was Marxist. The first day of independence the headline said instead, ‘America is the enemy of the world!’

And they did in time have their re-education camps, their pogroms, their persecution of Christians. So in time a reactionary front started, wild men joined it, and then all of them were committing atrocities.

In the end, that priest did fantastic work in cooperatives, in building green zones for agriculture and livestock. He reconciled himself back to the Church and returned to saying Mass. It is not clear with language issues what happened to him in between.

But for me, I really had a divided heart when I saw the priests too accommodating Marxism, being anti-American and having me there at the same time. I had to leave. It was very hard.

Pope Paul VI did send a papal nuncio to my diocese there to investigate the priests’ cooperation with the Marxists. And I finally came across some papers this year written by those who were part of the partition fighting the Marxists and it said the priests in that province of the country were on ‘bended knee’ to the them.

Now I finally found another article that I translated with Google’s help. The priests lost most of their missions to the war after the Marxists took over. I wonder if they would have survived if the priests had trusted in Christ more and simply promote the kingdom of Christ.
 
Again, I think JPII was praising the issue of not allowing the world to ‘touch the anointed ones’, as dictated by the Lord Himself.

But in these modern times, beyond the false advice that these men could be rehabilitated, and they should not have been ordained in the first place, if you don’t allow an ordained priest to be taken by the secular state, and you can’t put them back among people, then what is the Church supposed to do with them? Lock them up in some on monastery for life?

S. Catherine said bishops did that, the guilty being sent from monastery to monastery, and getting the whole place infected…
 
The peninent can later tell someone else that he confessed to the bishop or to his superior. This may be the case here. But the bishop or the superior who heard the confession, even if they denied absolution until the person turns himself in, has to deny that he know anything. That is an absolute and iviolable law. **Violating that silence would be a greater sin than the sexula abuse itself. ** There are very few sins that are greater than breaking the seal of confession, even for legal reasons.
I’m sorry, I’m not sure I understand this. So what if the penitent doesn’t tell anyone else - does it mean that there’s no way the culprit can be discovered, stopped and punished? By this logic, any abusive priest is free to molest children again and again (just like any of us can commit a sin, confess it and then we sin again), knowing that his secret will be kept forever and he will be always protected by the Church. How covering a predator can be a greater sin than molesting a child? Not receiving the absolution is not punishment and doesn’t prevent the priest from molesting children again.

I may think of replacing “molesting children” in my example with “killing people”, but I really doubt the incidence of SERIAL killers among priests is the same with the incidence of SERIAL child abusers (SERIAL = risk that the respective sin is repeated).
 
I’m sorry, I’m not sure I understand this. So what if the penitent doesn’t tell anyone else - does it mean that there’s no way the culprit can be discovered, stopped and punished? By this logic, any abusive priest is free to molest children again and again (just like any of us can commit a sin, confess it and then we sin again), knowing that his secret will be kept forever and he will be always protected by the Church. How covering a predator can be a greater sin than molesting a child? Not receiving the absolution is not punishment and doesn’t prevent the priest from molesting children again.

I may think of replacing “molesting children” in my example with “killing people”, but I really doubt the incidence of SERIAL killers among priests is the same with the incidence of SERIAL child abusers (SERIAL = risk that the respective sin is repeated).
The seal of confession is so sacred that it can never be violated, no matter how heinous the crime that is confessed. People have confessed murder. In fact there was a movie made about a true story in Quebec, many years ago. The priest could not tell anyone what he knew. He gave the person conditional absolution. “I absolve you, if you report to the authorities.” But the person did not. In the Quebec case it was the murderer who gave himself away, because someone had seen the crime and the murderer thought that the priest had reported him and tried to kill the priest. He was caught trying to kill the priest, then the rest of the story came out. I don’t know how much of the story was edited by the film maker. But the story was actually true, as told not by the priest whio always insisted that he knew nothing. The story was told by the man, years later in prison.

To answer your question, we cannot violate the seal of confession under any circumstance, whether you’re the priest or just someone who happens to overhear the confession. Canon law is very clear that this is an automatic excommunication.

Some years ago there was a case in the USA where the police bugged a confessional. I’m not sure what they were looking for (obviously criminals), I mean whom. But Pope John Paul himself intervened and demanded that the tapes be turned over to the local bishop and that any copies of them never be used. The case went to the State Attorney who agreed that the police had violated the confessional, which is protected by international law. I don’t think any of the police got into legal trouble. If they did, it was never reported. But the tapes were never used. There is a law, I forget its name, that says you cannot oblige anyone to reveal what is said in the confessional. It works something like the attorney-client privilege. The lawyer does not have to tell the court that you committed the crime. His job is to defend you.

The priest or the bystander cannot tell what he hears in the confessional. Morally, that is more serious sin than any crime. Sins come in hierarchies, like everything else in life. Killing is much more serious than pick-pocketing, etc.

Violationg the seal of confesssion is much more serious than sexual abuse. Only Christ has the right to know what is sad in the confessional. No one else has that right. Remember the words of absolution. The priest says, “I absolve you.” He does not say, “Christ absolves you.” Why not? Because at that moment, it is literally Christ who is speaking. Therefore, since Christ is literally hearing the confession, only Christ has the right to know. Christ does not reveal our sins to others. If you overhear something that is meant for Christ alone, youu can’t share it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The seal of confession is most sacred.

I and others met the priest who had the confessional bugged. We met him in just the routine of parish life.

This priest was very traumatized, and it took him some time to get over such a profound violation of the sacred.

If a priest reveals a confession, he is automatically excommunicated.

What I am wondering, if Christ said not to touch His anointed ones, and this is referred to in Psalm 101, then what does the Church do with these ordained ministers? They can’t put them into the congregation, and it would be hypocritical to turn them loose into the general public.

I really think that John Paul II was supporting the intent of Christ, that no matter the public pressure, the Church is to protect the sacrament of Holy Orders because it is the means that provides us the Precious Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

But if they are chronic abusers, then what does the Church do with them?
 
Originally Posted by Joegrane
Why is it that this supposedly is the only area of medicine where there is nothing that can be done?!
Originally posted by markeverett49
Who said it was? There are many diseases for which we now have no cure.
I did not say “cure”. I am referring to treatment and especially to mental illnesses. It just seems too convenient that the social liberals in the media would proclaim the dogma that there is nothing that can be done. Consider again the quote from Dr. Fitzgibbons.
In fact, every priest whom I treated who was involved with children sexually had previously been involved in adult homosexual relationships.
This is really a separate issue worthy of its own discussion…
 
Just another way to ruin a good man’s name but then the church will destroy itself and has already done so .
 
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