Pope laments 'black-and-white' mentality in priest-confessors [CC]
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LiamQ
Guest
(Forgive me, but this reminds me of a joke. Why is the Dominican habit colored black and white? Because Dominicans see everything in shades of grey!)
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J_Peterson
Guest
I guess I’m lucky in that I’ve never experienced harshness or black and white thinking of any kind in the confessional. Sometimes they are a bit tough but it’s when I need them to be tough. Sometimes they are soft and almost dismissive of the sins I committed, that’s what I needed at that point.
I think it’s mainly because I go to the Franciscans for confession but even when I went to my parish priest, it was always a positive experience.
I think it’s mainly because I go to the Franciscans for confession but even when I went to my parish priest, it was always a positive experience.
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Secant
Guest
I don’t get this at all. You go into the confessional. You say, forgive me Father for I have sinned, it has been x since my last confession. Here is what I’ve done. Act of Contrition. He says you’re absolved, pray for the people you’ve hurt, one rosary for all grave sins, three Hail Mary’s, an Our Father , and a Glory Be for all venial ones. Next…
Given that five of the six confessors I’ve used followed this precise format and the sixth was so deaf he told you what sins you committed instead of the other way around (left that confessional in tears), this seems to be standard. What need has a priest for discernment?
Given that five of the six confessors I’ve used followed this precise format and the sixth was so deaf he told you what sins you committed instead of the other way around (left that confessional in tears), this seems to be standard. What need has a priest for discernment?
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JimG
Guest
That’s pretty much my experience. Go into the confessional. Tell your sins, receive a few words of advice, penance, and absolution. Done. The important part is my sins are forgiven.
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LiamQ
Guest
Moral theology is extremely capable of understanding nuances. The problem is not that many Priests haven’t been formed in psychology, but that they haven’t really been formed in a great deal of the Catholic intellectual tradition. For evidence of this, just find reports on how widespread a lack of Latin fluency is amongst Priests, and compare that to the vastness of the material that’s only available in Latin to begin with.
Psychology itself is not a magic bullet, and much of it is as speculative as speculative can be, and many schools of thought are as contradictory as contradictory can be. It is my understanding that many of the older Priests were highly formed by Rogerian psychotherapy, and I’m not even going to begin to bore you with the philosophical and theological issues that can lead to, as if I even could.
Also, a Psychology that is rooted in basic erroneous assumptions of human nature is going to be no more helpful than asking Mork from Ork to come and help penitents. Moreover, I’m not sure there’s an agreed-upon idea in Psychology of what mental health actually is. When you combine those two things, I’m not sure that your idea is as “black and white” as might appear.
By the way, if you’d like some more information, here is an article written by a Jesuit who is a Professor of Psychology, one that can provide a bit of context for the Holy Father’s words, and which deals with the Ignatian concept of discernment: sjweb.info/documents/cis/pdfenglish/200511008en.pdf.
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Usige
Guest
I read through the article and kind of scratched my head a bit too. I don’t get what there is to be disappointed about. Discernment in a Spiritual Director, most certainly, but not in every confession. I get the impression that some people expect a “transformative experience” perhaps? Maybe I am simply missing the Holy Father’s point.
Yes, we should be transformed by the sacraments, but I figure it’s a gradual process not something that will leave me a radically different person when I leave.
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Justin_Swanton
Guest
When it comes to the supernatural life, things are black and white. One either sins or doesn’t sin, is culpable or not culpable. In moral theology there is never a section devoted to acts which possibly are sinful…or maybe not sinful…we don’t really know, grey area, you understand.
The ***degree ***of culpability is on the other hand very case dependent. Knowledge and consent vary from individual to individual and from circumstance to circumstance. But is the Pope talking about this? Degree of culpability is not really a grey area, it is about determining how sinful a sinful act is. The sin itself is clear enough. And some sins are always serious regardless of the individual or his circumstances.
Here is the relevant quote from Pope Francis’ address:
“Some programs of priestly formation run the risk of educating in the light of overly clear and distinct ideas, and therefore to act within limits and criteria that are rigidly defined in advance and that set aside concrete situations: this must be done, this mustn’t be done.”
Could this be taken to mean that moral commandments that are always serious sin if transgressed - such as the prohibition against adultery - must be put aside because there are grey areas where they do not apply to certain individuals in certain circumstances?
Once again, and I say it with weary respect, we do not know exactly what the Pope is getting at.
The ***degree ***of culpability is on the other hand very case dependent. Knowledge and consent vary from individual to individual and from circumstance to circumstance. But is the Pope talking about this? Degree of culpability is not really a grey area, it is about determining how sinful a sinful act is. The sin itself is clear enough. And some sins are always serious regardless of the individual or his circumstances.
Here is the relevant quote from Pope Francis’ address:
“Some programs of priestly formation run the risk of educating in the light of overly clear and distinct ideas, and therefore to act within limits and criteria that are rigidly defined in advance and that set aside concrete situations: this must be done, this mustn’t be done.”
Could this be taken to mean that moral commandments that are always serious sin if transgressed - such as the prohibition against adultery - must be put aside because there are grey areas where they do not apply to certain individuals in certain circumstances?
Once again, and I say it with weary respect, we do not know exactly what the Pope is getting at.
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LittleFlower378
Guest
In the age of the internet and news where everything is soundbites, it is even more essential to read the whole piece so we have context.
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J_Peterson
Guest
Also, we may not be the intended recipient of the message. I’m positive Pope Francis would be ecstatic if we told him about all the positive experiences we’ve had in the confessional. I don’t think this is a blanket condemnation or anything like that.
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Polycarp1
Guest
I think we need more black and white teaching from our clergy. Jesus never said :that’s a grey area". He spoke the truth bluntly and with authority.
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ShrodingersCat
Guest
Black and white teaching, yes. But the church recognises that mortal sin requires grave matter (that is the black and white part), plus full knowledge and free will. THOSE are where the shades of grey come in.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
I disagree with you there. I see the Pharisees and those who confronted him about the Law as the ones who were black and white. Jesus was the one who quite often responded from the grey areas.
Shabbat? Grey area. Healing? Grey area. Kashrut? Grey area. Parables were all about the grey area.
No, Jesus was never a black and white teacher.
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JimG
Guest
I’m a fan of clear and distinct education myself, particularly if the alternative is unclear and fuzzy.
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Generic_Name
Guest
The confessIonal isn’t for therapy - it’s for the forgiveness of sins. The penitent shows up, confesses his sinful behavior, declares his contrition, and is forgiven by the priest in persona Christi.
I’m confused as to why psychology is necessary.
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irenaeus1
Guest
Catholic moral teaching has been delivered to the masses in shades of gray to the point of ambiguity and error for the last 50 years or so. And with specific regard to confession, where has the pope been hanging out to know this is a problem within the confessional?.. especially with the seal of confession in place. I often wonder what the heck must be going on in Argentina.
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Seamus_L
Guest
The Pope says many people leave the confessional disappointed ? I’m actually very surprised that he said that because 99 pct of my trips to the confessional box have been very uplifting.
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abucs
Guest
Yes, me too.
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abucs
Guest
Yes i agree, Jesus spoke with authority and clearly had a ‘black and white’ teaching style. Sometimes He used the ‘grey areas’ of the listeners view with the objective to move their opinion of where the black and white was to His own teaching. That did not make Him a ‘Grey area teacher’.
Confrontation happened because His designation of"Black and White" was different to that of the teachers of His day.
Jesus made no attempt to hide that difference.
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sallybutler
Guest
Isn’t a confessor more than just the person who confers the Act of Penance. When you need advice and you go to the priest, isn’t he also being a confessor? Perhaps the Pope is talking about when the priests are in this role.
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