Pope Laments "Dying" Churches in West

[LynnieLew]

VATICAN CITY -

Pope Benedict XVI lamented the seemingly “dying” church in Europe and the United States and raised questions about the soaring number of priests in Asia and Africa in a lengthy, off-the-cuff speech to Italian priests.

Benedict also expressed sadness at the plight of divorced Roman Catholics who remarry without getting an annulment, reaffirming that they cannot receive Communion but stressing they should feel they still belong to the church.

The pope made the remarks to priests from the northern Valle d’Aosta region in a two-hour closed meeting Monday in Introd, near where he has been vacationing. The Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, published a transcript of the remarks Wednesday.

Read full story:
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050728/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_pope_s_lament_1

 

[legeorge]

Yes, he couldn’t help but notice how poisoned the Church seems to be in western societies. And an agonizingly slow death it is too. Since the Church is the Body of Christ, would it be beneficial to “cut off” the offending hand? What is happening in this society sure looks like gangrene(sp.?) to me. Pope Benedict sure has his work cut out for him!!

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

legeorge:

Since the Church is the Body of Christ, would it be beneficial to “cut off” the offending hand?

I wouldn’t think so, unless you want to be thrown out with the bathwater and left without a Church. I don’t. I prefer this approach, and then hope that there are enough good people left to turn the “offending hand” around:

Genesis 18:20-32

And the Lord said: The cry of Sodom and Gomorrha is multiplied, and their sin is become exceedingly grievous. I will go down and see whether they have done according to the cry that is come to me: or whether it be not so, that I may know. And they turned themselves from thence, and went their way to Sodom: but Abraham as yet stood before the Lord. And drawing nigh he said: Wilt thou destroy the just with the wicked? If there be fifty just men in the city, shall they perish withal? and wilt thou not spare that place for the sake of the fifty just, if they be therein? Far be it from thee to do this thing, and to slay the just with the wicked, and for the just to be in like case as the wicked, this is not beseeming thee: thou who judgest all the earth, wilt not make this judgment. And the Lord said to him: If I And in Sodom fifty just within the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake. And Abraham answered, and said: Seeing I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord, whereas I am dust and ashes. What if there be Ave less than fifty just persons? wilt thou for five and forty destroy the whole city? And he said: I will not destroy it, if I find five and forty. And again he said to him: But if forty be found there, what wilt thou do? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of forty. Lord, saith he, be not angry, I beseech thee, if I speak: What if thirty shall be found there? He answered: I will not do it, if I And thirty there. Seeing, saith he, I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord. What if twenty be found there? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty. I beseech thee, saith he, be not angry, Lord, if I speak yet once more: What if tell should be found there ? And he said: I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.

Our nation needs prayer, not to be cut off and left for dead. The power of prayer is great.

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag

 

[bellesjoy]

Because our diocese is in the NW (one of the most un-churced areas of the country, inside a country where Catholicism is suffering) our Bishop has been sucessful at bringing several priests here from Africa, Mexico and other places.

What is humbling to know is that these priests consider themselves missionaries to our area of the world. Growing up I recall raising money for missionary work to be done in places like Africa. The tables are turned and now we are the needy ones. Humbling indeed, and how sad that we have come to his place.

As Catholics who live in the United States, we often think we are pretty influential in terms of the global Church…many think they can influence the Vatican with their arrogant/dissident ways. We are not of the significance we deem ourselves to be.

Thank God for the priests who come here and for their adherence to the faith and obedience to the Holy Father.

 

[legeorge]

I wouldn’t think so, unless you want to be thrown out with the bathwater and left without a Church. I don’t. I prefer this approach, and then hope that there are enough good people left to turn the “offending hand” around:

OOPS. I certainly wasn’t advocating cutting off ALL of Europe and America from the Church. It sure sounded that way, huh? But that was my first thought. That if we could just get rid of the heretical parishes, priests, bishops, etc. and were left with only the devout, wouldn’t it be a relief? This is on the order of the “smaller church” argument. I am not sure where I stand on that, but it is easy to see how one turd can spoil the whole batch of stew. Like a little poison injected into your arm will travel through and infect the whole body in time. Of course I wish for the conversion of the hearts of the heretical, but it does make one weary for change, doesn’t it?

What is humbling to know is that these priests consider themselves missionaries to our area of the world. Growing up I recall raising money for missionary work to be done in places like Africa. The tables are turned and now we are the needy ones. Humbling indeed, and how sad that we have come to his place.

I feel exactly the same way. I have had the privelege of meeting 3 African priests, and I just love them! They have a lot to teach us, and I often express the very same sentiments: How we sent missionaries to evangelize them, and now we need them to re-evangelize us!

 

[David_Paul]

Before I came on the net, my opinion of Catholicism was shaped by Catholic politicians in New England (you know whoI’m talking about) and Liberation Theology Catholics at school. There was nothing there which interested me in the slightest.

So to Catholics who are down, many of us on the outside are delighted with what we’ve found in forums such as this , on EWTN and on the net in general.

 

[st_julie]

For every action there is an opposite reaction. I see the mess many in our Baby Boom generation has caused with its attraction to secular thought. I also see many of our children responding to the voice of the Pope and in turn re-evangelizing us. Attend a faith or family conference and see what I mean. The Lord works in amazing ways.

st julie

 

[trth_skr]

bellesjoy:

Because our diocese is in the NW (one of the most un-churced areas of the country, inside a country where Catholicism is suffering) our Bishop has been sucessful at bringing several priests here from Africa, Mexico and other places.

What is humbling to know is that these priests consider themselves missionaries to our area of the world. …

**The Virgin of Guadalupe’s Revenge? **

I have been reading and hearing a lot about the fact that Europe will eventually becoms an Islamic continent due the fact that Europeans are not getting married and not having children. From what I have seen in Europe, I believe there is a lot of truth in this. There are many Islamic people coming into Europe, and they are having a lot of children, compared to those of “Christian” Europeans.

A similar phenomenon is occuring the US, but we are far behind where they are. Marriage is much more common in the US, but families are having far fewer children (I think a recent statistic is less than 2.3 children per family). At the same time, the US, especially, western US is being flooded by immigants. Most of these immigrants are from Hispano-America. These immigrants are also having more children than established Americans.

The main difference, and it is possibly a blessing in disguise, is that most of the immigrants coming into the US from Hispano-America are Christian, largely Catholic. If we can keep them in the Catholic Church (many are fleeing to Protestant cults), they may make the US a Catholic nation, or at least create some Catholic states!

Is this the doing of the Virgin of Guadalupe?

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[vern_humphrey]

legeorge:

Yes, he couldn’t help but notice how poisoned the Church seems to be in western societies. And an agonizingly slow death it is too. Since the Church is the Body of Christ, would it be beneficial to “cut off” the offending hand? What is happening in this society sure looks like gangrene(sp.?) to me. Pope Benedict sure has his work cut out for him!!

If the sheep are straying, look to the shepards. Our American Catholic Bishops, with a few bright exceptions, have not done much to keep the Church alive.

In an era that calls for inspired leadership, we seen to be ordaining bureaucrats as bishops.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

legeorge:

Yes, he couldn’t help but notice how poisoned the Church seems to be in western societies. And an agonizingly slow death it is too. Since the Church is the Body of Christ, would it be beneficial to “cut off” the offending hand? What is happening in this society sure looks like gangrene(sp.?) to me. Pope Benedict sure has his work cut out for him!!

I’m sure we can see plenty that is gangrenous and poisoned in the Church in the US ​

Care to be excommunicated for belonging to a gangrenous part of the Church ?

Neither do we - unless the CC in the USA is the “one ark of salvation”. Yeah, right ROFL

BTW - that was indeed the correct spelling of “gangrene”

The trouble with treating particular Churches or people as gangrenous limbs, is that they are not: they are human beings, and bodies of human beings; so the analogy cannot be pressed.

It might be a good idea to put the pimping bishops under an interdict…

BTW - in the diocese of Rome, about 10% of Catholics actually practice. So the Pope’s own diocese would stand a very good chance of being treated as a gangrenous limb. Cut out Rome - and you cut out its bishop: result - one Pope-free Church.

The real problem with treating other Christians as gangrenous limbs, is that this is a short cut. It’s an easy response to a problem - which is why it should be rejected. Jesus said, in the parable of the tares and the wheat, “Let both grow together until the harvest”. Only then will the tares be clearly distinguishable from the wheat - try separating them before then, and the wheat may be plucked up with the tares.

Apart from anything else, there are tares and wheat in the hearts of us all - prescriptions such as “Pluck up the tares now” always take for granted that there are no tares in the heart of the speaker; or, in your metaphor, that the gangrene is never in one’s own heart, but only in the hearts of those others whom it is considered desirable to “cut off”; which is equivalent to saying, “I thank Thee, O God, that I am not as other men…” Divisions are within the hearts of all men - not between groups which are clearly identifiable in this world. ##

 

[Ani_Ibi]

## I’m sure we can see plenty that is gangrenous and poisoned in the Church in the US

Care to be excommunicated for belonging to a gangrenous part of the Church ?

Neither do we - unless the CC in the USA is the “one ark of salvation”. Yeah, right ROFL

BTW - that was indeed the correct spelling of “gangrene”

The trouble with treating particular Churches or people as gangrenous limbs, is that they are not: they are human beings, and bodies of human beings; so the analogy cannot be pressed.

It might be a good idea to put the pimping bishops under an interdict…

BTW - in the diocese of Rome, about 10% of Catholics actually practice. So the Pope’s own diocese would stand a very good chance of being treated as a gangrenous limb. Cut out Rome - and you cut out its bishop: result - one Pope-free Church.

The real problem with treating other Christians as gangrenous limbs, is that this is a short cut. It’s an easy response to a problem - which is why it should be rejected. Jesus said, in the parable of the tares and the wheat, “Let both grow together until the harvest”. Only then will the tares be clearly distinguishable from the wheat - try separating them before then, and the wheat may be plucked up with the tares.

Apart from anything else, there are tares and wheat in the hearts of us all - prescriptions such as “Pluck up the tares now” always take for granted that there are no tares in the heart of the speaker; or, in your metaphor, that the gangrene is never in one’s own heart, but only in the hearts of those others whom it is considered desirable to “cut off”; which is equivalent to saying, “I thank Thee, O God, that I am not as other men…” Divisions are within the hearts of all men - not between groups which are clearly identifiable in this world. ##

Is the harvest not upon us?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The Virgin of Guadalupe’s Revenge?

I have been reading and hearing a lot about the fact that Europe will eventually becoms an Islamic continent due the fact that Europeans are not getting married and not having children. From what I have seen in Europe, I believe there is a lot of truth in this. There are many Islamic people coming into Europe, and they are having a lot of children, compared to those of “Christian” Europeans.

Apparently, Muslims of the second or third generation are less observant than their parents, and no more philoprogenitive than the the mass of the host population.​

There were confident prophecies in the 1950s that the US would become a Catholic country by the end of the millennium: they were not fulfilled. (One of them occurs in Bishop Sheen’s “The World’s First Love” - a book not about Jesus Christ, despite the title, but about His mother.)

I see no reason to suppose that the woe-sayings about Islam are any more likely to be verified. People constantly prophesy what they hope or fear, and they are as constantly mistaken. ##

A similar phenomenon is occuring the US, but we are far behind where they are. Marriage is much more common in the US, but families are having far fewer children (I think a recent statistic is less than 2.3 children per family). At the same time, the US, especially, western US is being flooded by immigants. Most of these immigrants are from Hispano-America. These immigrants are also having more children than established Americans.

The main difference, and it is possibly a blessing in disguise, is that most of the immigrants coming into the US from Hispano-America are Christian, largely Catholic. If we can keep them in the Catholic Church (many are fleeing to Protestant cults), they may make the US a Catholic nation, or at least create some Catholic states!

Is this the doing of the Virgin of Guadalupe?

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

A *vengeful *Virgin ? I think not. She isn’t a pagan goddess, to get in an almighty sulk because her will is not fulfilled. She would not be any kind of model of Christian discipleship, if she threw a wobbly when things did not go as she willed.​

Juno in the Aeneid is vengeful, not to say implacable - one would hope that Mary of Nazareth is capable of something markedly better.

My favourite example of divine female vengefulness:

---

aina.org/books/eog/eog.htm#c8

Gilgamesh opened his mouth and answered glorious Ishtar, "…And did you not love Ishullanu, the gardener of your father’s palm grove? He brought you baskets filled with dates without end; every day he loaded your table. Then you turned your eyes on him and said, "Dearest Ishullanu, come here to me, let us enjoy your manhood, come forward and take me, I am yours.’ Ishullanu answered, “What are you asking from me? My mother has baked and I have eaten; why should I come to such as you for food that is tainted and rotten? For when was a screen of rushes sufficient protection from frosts?” But when you had beard his answer you struck him. He was changed to a blind mole deep in the earth, one whose desire is always beyond his reach. And if you and I should be lovers, should not I be served in the same fashion as all these others whom you loved once?’
When Ishtar heard this she fell into a bitter rage, she went up to high heaven. Her tears poured down in front of her father Anu, and Antum her mother. She said, ‘My father, Gilgamesh has heaped insults on me, he has told over all my abominable behaviour, my foul and hideous acts.’ Anu opened his mouth and said, ‘Are you a father of gods? Did not you quarrel with Gilgamesh the king, so now he has related your abominable behaviour, your foul and hideous acts.’

Ishtar opened her mouth and said again, ‘My father, give me the Bull of Heaven to destroy Gilgamesh. Fill Gilgamesh, I say, with arrogance to his destruction; but if you refuse to give me the Bull of Heaven I will break in the doors of hell and smash the bolts; there will be confusion of people, those above with those from the lower depths. I shall bring up the dead to eat food like the living; and the hosts of dead will outnumber the living.’ Anu said to great Ishtar, 'If I do what you desire there will be seven years of drought throughout Uruk when corn will be seedless husks. Have you saved grain enough for the people and grass for the cattle? Ishtar replied. ‘I have saved grain for the people, grass for the cattle; for seven years o£ seedless husks, there is grain and there is grass enough.’​

That is vengefulness - and it is not how Mary behaves

Besides, it’s not her Church. ##

 

[trth_skr]

Virgin ? I think not. She isn’t a pagan goddess, to get in an almighty sulk because her will is not fulfilled. She would not be any kind of model of Christian discipleship, if she threw a wobbly when things did not go as she willed.

The vengeful part is just a catchy human style title. You are right that Mary is not vengeful.

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[KathleenElsie]

st julie:

For every action there is an opposite reaction. I see the mess many in our Baby Boom generation has caused with its attraction to secular thought. I also see many of our children responding to the voice of the Pope and in turn re-evangelizing us. Attend a faith or family conference and see what I mean. The Lord works in amazing ways.

st julie

Many of us are turning back to more traditional ways. The traditional family and the Catholic Church go well together.:clapping:

 

[UnworthySoul]

There are those of us who are not married who are also serious about our faith. I will be 30 in a few days, never married, not likely to be and I have accepted that, but my faith remains strong. We WILL hold on until the end, the Lord promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against our Church. We will endure. Some will fall away, but some of us will remain steadfast with God’s help.

 

[legeorge]

Apart from anything else, there are tares and wheat in the hearts of us all - prescriptions such as “Pluck up the tares now” always take for granted that there are no tares in the heart of the speaker;

Actually, I fear I have already been affected. I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s. I think I have my hands on the antidote, but maybe the poison was too… strong…gasp…choke…wheeze.

Just kidding! I needed to lighted up a bit. If you saw post #5, you’ll see I didn’t mean to be so strong in my language, but sometimes, it sure can be hard to live out here. It can get a bit tiring. And I don’t know what the solution is. I guess the Church has gone through much harder times than this, but I didn’t live then. I don’t want to come accross as a doom and gloomer, though. My hope is in the Lord. I trust in Him!

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

David_Paul:

Before I came on the net, my opinion of Catholicism was shaped by Catholic politicians in New England (you know whoI’m talking about) and Liberation Theology Catholics at school. There was nothing there which interested me in the slightest.

So to Catholics who are down, many of us on the outside are delighted with what we’ve found in forums such as this , on EWTN and on the net in general.

I for one am glad your here David Paul It is nice that you have found out what the Church teaches instead of relying on the scandalous actions of some You,Curious and Zooey I call closet Catholics You adhere to more Church teachings than people who were born and raised Catholic God Bless you guys,Lisa

 

[Franze]

Lisa4Catholics:

I for one am glad your here David Paul It is nice that you have found out what the Church teaches instead of relying on the scandalous actions of some You,Curious and Zooey I call closet Catholics You adhere to more Church teachings than people who were born and raised Catholic God Bless you guys,Lisa

It´s truth, David Paul seems to be catholic in his opinions

 

[Richardols]

UnworthySoul:

I will be 30 in a few days, never married, not likely to be and I have accepted that.

You needn’t accept that if you don’t want. Keep in mind that “there’s a cover for every pot.”

 

[UnworthySoul]

My experience suggests otherwise, but I’ll accept the possibility for what it’s worth though I doubt the veracity of it. Simply put, I do not believe there is “someone for everyone” as I’ve seen nothing to suggest it is so. Not a big deal really, you accpet the cross you’re given to bear and press on.