Pope leads "New Liturgical Movement" by example

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi again,

Do you feel that this Communion outside of the Mass is preferable to the usual communion procession with the standing posture?

(Joanne did use "'s for abuse. I understood that to mean less preferable, rather than an actual abuse–also I have never seen anything in the GIRM which supports your POV)

or to be more specific…
Do you think the kneeling posture should take preference over all receiving at the Mass?

Lux

 

[grandfather]

Hi,

I have no problem with Eastern rite or traditional latin, as long as the implication is not that they are more reverant, or “better” in theological significance.

Lux,

One of the things the human soul craves, by design, is beauty. That is why people look at flowers, waterfalls, sunsets and the night sky in awe. When we go into a magnificent church for the first time some of them have the same effect. Others are not so beautiful and in fact some seem to be deliberately designed to not inspire awe. When a woman dresses herself and arranges her hair and maybe makeup she tries to make her appearance pleasing or attractive. This has probably been going on since Eve arranged fig leaves. This dress or style seems more beautiful than another. We are always seeking perfection.

In these times there seems to be a rebellion against beauty. My sister inlaw came to visit yesterday. The young woman who sat next to her on the plane had a portion of her head shaved, another portion died blue and another purple or pinkish. Her clothing was garish and somewhat dirty and her exposed stomach was tatooed. We have all seen this. There seems to be a movement to be deliberately ugly. Some people would say that sentiment has infected the way the newer churches are designed.

But what about liturgy? It seems to me that it is impossible to not compare the beauty and reverence of one to another. One form leaves a different impression on a person over another. It is impossible to not prefer one or another as it is impossible for a bride to not prefer one gown that is tradtional versus a mini skirt with no back.

The title of the thread is a bit misleading. The pope is not leading a new liturgical movement. He is rejecting the new in appreciation for the beauty of things traditional such as kneeling to receive. Some radical new things have been experimented with and tried on. For those who love the traditional beautiful things that have been handed on they have their preferences. There are those who want to be rid of them and redo everything to their liking. This tension will eventually be resolved and some of the criteria will be which is most beautiful and reverent.

As the style of a woman deliberately making herself grotesque with half shaved head dyed garishly will pass, so will the trend of building ugly churches and making liturgy irreverent.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi,

Although I do not totally agree with you, I can appreciate what you are saying.

However this is exactly what disheartens me

making liturgy irreverent

How about

making liturgy not to my liking

How dare you compare a legitimate mass to someone grotesque or garish?

This is the height of irreverence.

Lux

 

[japhy]

Do you feel that this Communion outside of the Mass is preferable to the usual communion procession with the standing posture? … or to be more specific… Do you think the kneeling posture should take preference over all receiving at the Mass?

Personally, I prefer kneeling to receive (in the Latin Rite); I’m not sure why, after Vatican II, it suddenly became an issue for individual conferences of bishops to decide on (standing or kneeling), since it was not customary to receive standing in the Latin Rite.

But I really don’t understand your first question… it compares receiving Holy Communion outside of Mass with “the usual communion procession with the standing posture”. What is the basis of the comparison? I would expect (although I have no idea) that the Communion outside Mass would have been done even if Archbishop Ranjith had not required communicants to kneel; I also expect the Communion outside of Mass included kneeling, but again, I have no way of knowing.

I cannot answer your first question; I cannot compare the two. As for the “more specific” question, “Do you think the kneeling posture should take preference over all receiving at the Mass?” I think I finally see the disconnect. Not everyone could receive “due to the nature of the open air venue and the rain”, not because the Archbishop imposed kneeling on the communicants.

(… I have never seen anything in the GIRM which supports your POV)

What point of view exactly? I didn’t quote the GIRM because the GIRM doesn’t mention this. I quoted the document which mentions it. I can quote others if you’d like.

 

[japhy]

The title of the thread is a bit misleading. The pope is not leading a new liturgical movement.

Hey, I’m just using the Cardinal’s own words here!

 

[japhy]

As the style of a woman deliberately making herself grotesque with half shaved head dyed garishly will pass, so will the trend of building ugly churches and making liturgy irreverent.

However this is exactly what disheartens me. … How dare you compare a legitimate mass to someone grotesque or garish? This is the height of irreverence.

The comparison is the height of irreverence?! Not the actual irreverence itself?

I think a grossly-celebrated Eucharistic celebration (since the organizers of such things tend to avoid the word “Mass”, and say “the Eucharist”, or better yet, just “Eucharist”) which essentially spits on the liturgy as the Church intends it to be is a far worse act of irreverence than to say that a liturgy so celebrated is like a person in a culture utterly confused about what beauty actually is.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic, everyone. And keep the discussion civil. Thank you.

 

[grandfather]

How dare you compare a legitimate mass to someone grotesque or garish?

This is the height of irreverence.

Lux

I have seen many irreverent things done at Mass. I have seen the Santa Claus Masses, the dancers and prancers in leotards that are forbidden, a priest interupt the Eucharistic prayers to crack jokes, and I could make a very long list. So I dare without any compunction whatsoever to say there is a lot of irreverence at many Masses. In the local parish some years ago the associate pastor with a doctorate in canon law baptized two practicing living together homosexuals full immersion in the nude. So don’t tell me that I don’t know irreverence when I see it and please don’t tell me how I dare call it what it is. How dare the perpetrators od irreverence and sacrelige do what they do in our churches. How dare the bishops to condone it. How dare anyone call it legitimate. It is indeed grotesque.

 

[Brendan]

OK—Do you feel that this Communion outside of the Mass is preferable to the usual communion procession with the standing posture, which has always worked at Papal Masses in the past?

Lux

It certainly ‘worked’ in the past, but obviously Pope Benedict felt that it could be improved upon by adding kneeling.

Why should I even try to disagree with him?, he knows far more about Liturgical Theology than I ever could hope to learn.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

But it is the responsibility of the Bishops to determine what is the “best common good” of their flock as to liturgical posture.

The standing posture is approved.

lux

 

[Brendan]

But it is the responsibility of the Bishops to determine what is the “best common good” of their flock as to liturgical posture.

The standing posture is approved.

lux

Each bishop also recognizes that the Holy Spirit has spoken on the Authority of the Holy See (see Pastor Aeternus, Vatican I ).

If the Pope requires all who desire to receive Holy Communion from him to kneel, therefore bishop’s authority on that particular matter ceases.

Since the Pope sees benefit in those recieving from him to kneel,.the posture of standing is now only approved when one is NOT receiving from the Pope

 

[grandfather]

But it is the responsibility of the Bishops to determine what is the “best common good” of their flock as to liturgical posture.

The standing posture is approved.

lux

Can the pope determine liturgical practice? Can he hire and fire bishops?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Each bishop also recognizes that the Holy Spirit has spoken on the Authority of the Holy See (see Pastor Aeternus, Vatican I ).

If the Pope requires all who desire to receive Holy Communion from him to kneel, therefore bishop’s authority on that particular matter ceases.

Since the Pope sees benefit in those recieving from him to kneel,.the posture of standing is now only approved when one is NOT receiving from the Pope

Again, certainly the Pope has the authority at his own Mass, but I do not agree that it is good for public worship to exercise that authority.

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Can the pope determine liturgical practice?

Not sure of canon or liturgical law. Also what he can do, may not always be what is in the “best common good” Some of you are so upset when the Bishop exercises his authority over liturgical norms, why is that so different?

I still am quite upset at the attitude of some toward legitimate worship, which is not only toward abusive practices, but also toward some normative postures.

Can he hire and fire bishops?

Individuals, yes, but the conference as a whole, as well as individual bishops does have authority over some liturgical matters.

Lux

 

[Brendan]

Again, certainly the Pope has the authority at his own Mass, but I do not agree that it is good for public worship to exercise that authority.

Lux

You can disagree, but when it really comes down to it, which of you too has has most of their adult life as a noted expert in the field of Liturgical Theology?

 

[Brendan]

Not sure of canon or liturgical law.

OK, lets look at an Eccumenical Council, Vatican I

Pastor Aeternus 3-2

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. **Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power **by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world

Some of you are so upset when the Bishop exercises his authority over liturgical norms, why is that so different?

I have yet to get upset when a Bishop exercises the authority given to him by liturgical law. I have been know to object when a bishop attempts to exceed that authority

Such cannot be the case with the Pope, as there are no earthly limits to his authority over the liturgy.

Individuals, yes, but the conference as a whole, as well as individual bishops does have authority over some liturgical matters.

Lux

Yes, they have the authority that the Pope agrees they should have, and not one iota more.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi,

I don’t like the direction this is going.

This is what I am saying
(from the original article on CNS)

In the Vatican newspaper interview, Msgr. Marini was asked if this practice was destined to become the norm in all papal celebrations, and he replied, “I really think so.”

He said “it is necessary not to forget that the distribution of Communion in the hand, from a juridical standpoint, remains up to now an indult,” which is an exemption from a general requirement that is granted by the Vatican to the bishops’ conferences which have requested it. He said the pope’s adoption of the traditional practice of distributing Communion “aims to highlight the force of the valid norm for the whole church.”

However, the pope’s preference for the traditional practice is not meant to “take anything away from the other” permissible form of standing or receiving the Eucharist in the hand, he said.

Lux

 

[fix]

Can the pope determine liturgical practice? Can he hire and fire bishops?

[882](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/882.htm’) The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404

 

[grandfather]

[882](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/882.htm’) The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404

The new Mass, or novus Ordo Missae was imposed by Paul VI using his authority as pope. Although it is now said that the traditional form was “never abrogated”, this is a matter of semantics. The traditional form was banned, prohibited, forbidden by the pope. Any priest or bishop who continued to say the old Mass in public was dealt with severely. A few priests did so and lost their incardination. Apb. Lefebvre was the only bishop to my knowledge who continued to use the old rite and it was in disobedience to Rome’s directive. Many priests were distraught over the change, but they obeyed Rome. This change was radical and it was imposed by edict and exercise of papal authority.

For anyone to say that the pope needs to consult with bishops or bishop’s conferences if he chooses to instruct the Church on something like posture in worship is a claim that has no baisis in reality. The pope can listen to conferences, consulters, experts, congregations and do as he pleases. His title is Supreme Pontif.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

As i quoted.

However, the pope’s preference for the traditional practice is not meant to “take anything away from the other” permissible form of standing or receiving the Eucharist in the hand, he said.

My problem is with the insinuations often made that the OF or the us adaptations are less reverent than other forms.

Lux