Pope Lifts Excommunications of SSPX Bishops

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JimR-OCDS said:
hosemonkey;

They’re not returning to the Church, because they’ve come to a realization that they’ve been wrong, but rather, the Pope is allowing them to return, while still in error.

The prodigal son, when he returned home, did so after realizing he was wrong. This isn’t the case for the SSPX members and they won’t be returning to the Church, without expecting the Church to conform to their desires.

This is whats dangerous about it.

They’ll bring division more than anything else, unless the accept Vatican II, the Novus Ordo and that their Catholic brothers and sisters, have no desire to return to Pre-Vatican II days.

They won’t be for us, unless we reject what they reject.

Jim
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👍

Without a public statement to the contrary and an explanation from the Vatican that is exactly the danger.

The other thing I don’t understand is why this is being done in the very same week as Holocaust Memorial Day! :eek:
 
lizaanne said:
What about the concerns regarding Bishop Richard Williamson? He apparently has denied the Holocaust and said the gas chambers were a “myth”.

This is very VERY disconcerting to me.

timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5567829.ece

~Liza
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B16 is nobody’s fool. That there are wolves amidst the stray lambs gives him all the more reason to bring the sheep safely back into the fold. Not only for the protection of the sheep, but also to starve the wolf packs of mutton.Edit: NYTimes
The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said Saturday that Bishop Williamson’s comments had nothing to do with the pope’s decision to welcome the schismatic bishops back into the fold. He added, “These are declarations that we don’t share in any way.”
 
At one point in time, the Vatican said that the four bishops should be declared excommunicated. Now the Vatican says that they should not be excommunicated. What has caused the Vatican to change its mind?
 
Adonis33 said:
Exactly. Some people seem to think that the Holocaust is a matter of doctrine - it’s not. I disagree with his opinion - just as I disagree with his theory of 9/11. However his errant views of history are not reasons to lift the excommunications.

I think Pope Benedicts actions are a beautiful thing.
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We’re assuming that he is an anti-semite and is promoting racism. It’s not about a historical opinion, it’s about how this opinion is usually used to promote racism. Has anyone ever heard of a holocaust-denier who respects Jews?
 
Christus_Rex said:
Of course hating someone (a Jew) because of their race is a sin, but the SSPX does not hate Jews. In fact, they worship one. Saying something that some Jews may not like to hear is not the same AntiSemetism.

I have a question for you: Is it anti-Catholic for the Jews to say that Jesus is in hell? That is what their blasphemous Talmud says. Do you see how upside down everything is? If someone questions the historical truth of certain questionable aspects of the haulocost (the sacred cow that no one can even question) they are consider Antisemitic; yet a Jew can reject Jesus Christ and claim he is in hell and no one cares.
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Well actually it doesn’t. There isn’t even a hell in Judaism in the Catholic sense only a kind of purgatory. Since Yehoshua bar Yosef nor any other human could ever be divine, those people claiming to be god incarnate do not have much space in the Talmud.The people who make these false claims against the Talmud are non Jews who invariably think that people like Richard Williamson may actually have a point in his virulent antisemitism.
 
lizaanne said:
What about the concerns regarding Bishop Richard Williamson? He apparently has denied the Holocaust and said the gas chambers were a “myth”.

This is very VERY disconcerting to me.

timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5567829.ece

~Liza
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Liza, your concerns became reality last night on KGO radio in San Francisco. You can listen to the John Rothman archive if you go to KGO archives and click on Sunday from 1 until 6 this morning. John, a Jewish author and professor, played the 5 minute Williamson interview and then opened up the lines for comments. Almost all of the “Catholics” who called in were ashamed of the pope. The non-Catholics all agreed that the pope was an anti-semite and had no respect for him. I beg any of you who can defend our pope to write to johnrothman2@yahoo.com (that is the e-mail address KGO radio has listed) He has opened up such a hornet’s nest of negativity against the pope and Catholicism.
 
onetruechurch said:
Liza, your concerns became reality last night on KGO radio in San Francisco. You can listen to the John Rothman archive if you go to KGO archives and click on Sunday from 1 until 6 this morning. John, a Jewish author and professor, played the 5 minute Williamson interview and then opened up the lines for comments. Almost all of the “Catholics” who called in were ashamed of the pope. The non-Catholics all agreed that the pope was an anti-semite and had no respect for him. I beg any of you who can defend our pope to write to johnrothman2@yahoo.com (that is the e-mail address KGO radio has listed) He has opened up such a hornet’s nest of negativity against the pope and Catholicism.
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Um, the radio station is in SAN FRANCISCO, one of the most liberal and anti-Catholic cities in the nation. I’m sure the opinions of the viewers are not totally representative of the whole nation. Besides, the excommunication was lifted because of the issue of the Latin Mass, not anything having to do with personal views.
 
JPUSC said:
Um, the radio station is in SAN FRANCISCO, one of the most liberal and anti-Catholic cities in the nation. I’m sure the opinions of the viewers are not totally representative of the whole nation. Besides, the excommunication was lifted because of the issue of the Latin Mass, not anything having to do with personal views.
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KGO radio has the strongest signal on the west coast. The after midnight hours can be heard from Mexico to Canada. My radio was left on last night because on Saturday nights Dr. Wattenberg the only conservative host on KGO has his late night show. I’m sure I am not the only conservative listener who just happened to have the radio on when Mr Rothman started his show. Pick any Sunday morning hour between 1 and 6 and give it a listen. You need to know what the “other side” is saying. Many of us in the SF Bay area are conservative (orthodox) practicing Catholics. We have to go to our jobs and associate with people who are constantly hearing the liberal side and believe the Pope is ant-Semitic. I

By the way, over 30000 people marched for life in San Francisco yesterday. The West Coast is not a lost cause.
 
onetruechurch said:
KGO radio has the strongest signal on the west coast. The after midnight hours can be heard from Mexico to Canada. My radio was left on last night because on Saturday nights Dr. Wattenberg the only conservative host on KGO has his late night show. I’m sure I am not the only conservative listener who just happened to have the radio on when Mr Rothman started his show. Pick any Sunday morning hour between 1 and 6 and give it a listen. You need to know what the “other side” is saying. Many of us in the SF Bay area are conservative (orthodox) practicing Catholics. We have to go to our jobs and associate with people who are constantly hearing the liberal side and believe the Pope is ant-Semitic. I

By the way, over 30000 people marched for life in San Francisco yesterday. The West Coast is not a lost cause.
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I’m originally from SF, and at least for the under 30 crowd, most Catholics I’ve encountered there are lukewarm or cafeteria Catholics. I will say that the liturgies in SF are traditional and orthodox.
 
I think its good that SSPX is received back into the church.

The post vatican reforms are too liberated that the Catholic Church is becoming like protestant. The Catholic identity is being destroyed. If that cannot be remedied then dissolution wil come from within.

Its sad that there are people interfering with matters within the church. It appears that they seem to be happy that the church remain divided and confuse.

The SSPX I think can fix the problem. The enemies of the Church are afraid that the problem of the Church will be fixed because they know that the Church will become again powerful, authoritative, clear, and influential.
 
I share the dismay of those who are troubled by this action. The account in the New York Times (nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/europe/25pope.html?_r=1&ref=world) concludes as follows:
"*George Weigel, a biographer of John Paul II, said he was troubled by Bishop Fellay’s implication in his letter that the schismatic group represented the tradition, while “the rest of us are, somehow, the true schismatics.”

He added: “It is not easy to see how the unity of the Church will be enhanced unless the Lefebvrists accept Vatican II’s teaching on the nature of the Church, on religious freedom, and on the evil of anti-Semitism, explicitly and without qualification; otherwise, you get cafeteria Catholicism on the far right, as we already have on the left*.”

I share Weigel’s concern.
 
If it was the Pope that was denying the holocaust and sayin 9/11 was a US conspiracy, I think the world would be justified in questioning his ability as a religious leader.
 
PoliSciProf said:
I share the dismay of those who are troubled by this action. The account in the New York Times (nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/europe/25pope.html?_r=1&ref=world) concludes as follows:
"*George Weigel, a biographer of John Paul II, said he was troubled by Bishop Fellay’s implication in his letter that the schismatic group represented the tradition, while “the rest of us are, somehow, the true schismatics.”

He added: “It is not easy to see how the unity of the Church will be enhanced unless the Lefebvrists accept Vatican II’s teaching on the nature of the Church, on religious freedom, and on the evil of anti-Semitism, explicitly and without qualification; otherwise, you get cafeteria Catholicism on the far right, as we already have on the left*.”

I share Weigel’s concern.
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I do as well!

Nicely put.
 
Valke2 said:
If it was the Pope that was denying the holocaust and sayin 9/11 was a US conspiracy, I think the world would be justified in questioning his ability as a religious leader.
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Why was there broadcast the interview with Bishop Williamson just before the excommunications were lifted?
 
bobzills said:
Why was there broadcast the interview with Bishop Williamson just before the excommunications were lifted?
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Considering that the interview took place way back in November, that is an excellent question.
 
bobzills said:
At one point in time, the Vatican said that the four bishops should be declared excommunicated. Now the Vatican says that they should not be excommunicated. What has caused the Vatican to change its mind?
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There are several explanations for this.
  1. The excommunication was not a decision of the Vatican. They excommunicated themselves by allowing the Archbishop to consecrate them as bishops. Any pope has the authority to grant a pardon, just as any president does. The law has not changed. These bishops simply have benefited from the generosity of Benedict XVI.
  2. Excommunication is a disciplinary act. It is not a binding act on any pope. The same pope can excommunicate and re-communicate. Joseph Ratzinger was involved in the excommunication of these bishops. He held then and still does, that to consecrate bishops without the permission of the Pope is equivalent to setting up a parallel magisterium. That has not changed.
  3. The SSPX bishops were not willing to engage in dialogue with the Holy See and other bishops. They wanted to have their day in court. They wanted a ecclesiastic tribunal to judge them so they could present their case and hopefully come out of it “not guilty”. John Paul II and Benedict XVI said no to this. They did not want to take the chance of having a tribunal find them not guilty. This would put the pope into the uncomfortable position of overruling the tribunal.
Now that Bishop Falley has agreed to talks rather than a day in court, they are showing more flexibility. This allows them to have private discussion with the Holy Father, the Congregation for Bishops, the Congregation of the Faith, and the Ecclesia Dei Commision. Even if these congregations hear them out, they are not bound by any law to accept their positions as valid. On the other hand, the congregations and commissions can sort through their concerns and say this is valid and this is nonsense. In a tribunal you’re judging the whole cake, metaphorically speaking. The question before a tribunal would be whether they incurred excommunication or not. A tribunal does not address each point of their concerns.
  1. Another reason for lifting the excommunication is to bring unity to the Church. The Church does not want successors of the Apostles out of communion with the Bishop of Rome. That’s why she lifted the excommunication of the Orthodox bishops. While there is a communion in sacris, this does not mean that they are in full communion. There is a difference.
This action recognizes that these bishops are truly Catholic. They are not heretics. They are successors of the Apostles. They are brother bishops to the Pope and other bishops of the Church. It does not recognize their grievances as valid. This is the same treatment that is given to the Orthodox bishops. The difference between the SSPX bishops and the Orthodox bishops is that the SSPX does acknowledge the primacy of Peter. They are in a closer communion than the Orthodox, but nonetheless, they are in an extraordinary state.
  1. Finally, there is the autocratic response, which is very important to Benedict XVI, probably more than it was to John Paul II. “I am Peter. I can bind and unbind without any explanation to anyone.”
Benedict has made it clear that he and the bishops in communion with him run the Church and no one else. He has often told the laity that their mission is to spread the spirit of Christ. He has stopped short of telling the laity and the clergy that they have any authority in the Church or even a voice. He always goes back to his position on the voice of reason and faith together. That’s the only voice that he’s willing to hear. Those whom he deems are not speaking with the voice of reason united to faith he does not hear.

Though he appears to be a very conservative bishop. Pope Benedict XVI is conservative in areas such as liturgy and morals, but is very radical in areas concerning the participation of the clergy, religious and laity in the governance of the Church. That’s something that he very obviously reserves for those bishops in communion with him and to himself.

JR 🙂
 
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