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JReducation
Guest
Even if Bishop Williams’ statement is a reaction to that of some radical Jewish historian, you do not compromise our values in order to protect them.
JR
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JR
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Timothysis
Guest
How??? Pope Benedict did not lift the excommunications is order to hand the keys of the Vatican over to the sspx. If the order is regularized it doesn’t mean that bishops and priests of the sspx are going to march into diocese all over America/the world and “declare” a new order.
While I think it was most generous of the Holy Father to lift the excommunications I don’t think his intention was to do it in order for the sspx to “fix the problem.”
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pnewton
Guest
I believe this statement fails to account for the scope and size of the Catholic Church. The mercy of God is big enough for all and in heaven there are many mansions.
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JReducation
Guest
We have to look at several things here through the lens of the Church.
- The SSPX is not an order or a religious congregation. It is a society of secular priests. That’s very different from an order. An order has Pontifical Rights, a secular society does not. It is subject to a hierarchy of committees and congregations in the Church that come between the society and the Holy See. Religious Orders have Pontifical Right. They answer to no one except to the Holy See. The SSPX has to submit to the all of these different offices in the Vatican.
- Because they are a society, they cannot legally take over a diocese. The bishop of a diocese must be either a diocesan priest or a religious. Currently, the only Society that is allowed to have bishops who run dioceses are the Jesuits. They too are a society. This does not mean that Holy Father cannot make an exception and give an SSPX bishop a diocese. It looks very unlikely, unless the bishop agrees to accept the norms established by Vatican II and the Motu Proprio for the celebration of the Ordinary Form of the mass.
- As a society they can be given a prelature as the Opus Dei has and the Society of Christ the King in Brazil. Catholics who belong to the prelature would then follow the disciplines of the SSPX. The bishops would still be accountable to the Congregation for Bishops and to the Holy Father, but it would give them some room to celebrate sacraments using the EF and to develop their spirituality among the laity.
The reason for that is that no Catholic can exist outside of a local Church. The local Church must be headed by an Ordinary. A bishop belonging to the SSPX could not be the Ordinary unless he is the bishop of the diocese. In point two I have already explained the conditions under which an SSPX bishop can govern a diocese.
- In order to have a wide influence in the Church an SSPX bishop or priest would have to accept the decrees of Vatican II concern religious life. Even though the SSPX priests and bishops are secular men, not religious, there are many religious in every diocese. The local bishop or priest has to accept the religious communities on the terms that the Vatican approves, even if they disagree with them. If the bishop and the religious disagree on terms that have been approved by the Vatican for the religious, the religious can leave the diocese or the bishop can ask them to leave. Would this be good for the local Church?
The point here is that due to such complications, it is unfair to put the burden of “fixing” the Church on the shoulders of the SSPX. It is unfair to them and to Catholics who do not subscribe to their form of discipline, even if they agree with them on the form of the mass.
I believe that is a burden that falls on the shoulders of the worldwide Catholic community. In our attempt to bring back the SSPX, we must also be fair in our expectations. Justice and charity cannot be violated, even for the good of the Church. That would be an oxymoron.
Fraternally,
JR
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Dauphin
Guest
The SSPX would most likely be called on to accept any propositions concerning faith or morals put forward by the Council, clarified in the light of Sacred Tradition.
However, the teaching on religious liberty is a legitimate grey area since Quanta Cura explicitly “proscribed and condemned” the error of religious liberty. I doubt that any Catholic can be bound to repudiate a document which invokes the “full apostolic authority” of the Pope.
On the subject of anti-Semitism, the SSPX has already called it a sin, saying that no Catholic can be an anti-Semite. No serious person involved in these discussions believes that the SSPX embraces anti-Semitism.
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Dauphin
Guest
The Pope is not a politician.
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pnewton
Guest
Also, they are free to believe a stricter interpretation of certain doctrines, as long as they do not contradict the teaching of the Church.
I think sometimes people here forget that many areas have not been so well defined by the Catholic Church as to defy any opinion but one. There are many areas we can disagree on and still be 100% obedient to the Holy Father. In fact, it is this very disagreement that is crucial do doctrinal development.
The only problem could arise would be if some took the Spirit of the SSPX so far as to defy Church teaching that is defined. The Church saw something similar happen last century and we see where it go us.
All I ask is that it The Spirit of the SSPX ever become s catch phrase, I want credit.
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fcgv
Guest
Praise God, we need more voices like the SSPX in the mix to return us away from the heresies of the Novus Ordo Church
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JReducation
Guest
Be very careful and specific when you make statements like this. The Ordinary Form has been blessed by the Holy See and is not considered heresy. One may not like it or one may prefer the Extraordinary Form. That is fine with the Church. But if we call the Ordinary form heresy, then we are calling the Church heretical. It was sanctioned by the Church, reiterated by five consecutive popes. Five popes in a row cannot be heretical.
The Motu Propio calls it holy and says that the Novus Ordo is as holy as the Gregorian form and therefore, the ordinary form of the mass for the Latin Church.
Calling the NO heresy is precisely what the SSPX bishops have been asked to give up in order to re-enter the Church, that and a few other misconceptions such as their denial of Religious Freedom, their denial of the authority of Vatican II, their denial of ecumenism, and their insistence that the form of the mass could not be changed. This were the requirements that Pope Benedict put on the table last summer when he offered to lift the excommunication. He would not lift it until Bishop Fellay accepted these points. Even though the Holy Father is willing to discuss the mistakes that have been made in implementing them, he was not willing to deny that any of these were truly holy and binding on the Church.
So be careful when you use heresy and Novus Ordo in the same sentence. You don’t want to end up with an excommunication on your back. It must be like having a monkey. I’m impressed that these men have lived with this for so long. I believe that they love the Lord and Church. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.
Fraternally,
JR
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pnewton
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The Catholic Church does not contain heresies. Name-calling does reflects more on your character than on the Holy Catholic Church. AB Fellay has had his excommunication lifted, not elected Pope.
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PNEUMA
Guest
How did he compromise our values ? By downplaying the Holocaust ?Even if Bishop Williams’ statement is a reaction to that of some radical Jewish historian, you do not compromise our values in order to protect them.
JR
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Roamin_Xian
Guest
How many adherants are even in the SSPX?
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individual
Guest
As I non Catholic I must say the decision will mostly hurt the catholic church.
Not even a single person is going to convert to Catholicism because of this.
Not even a single person is going to have stronger faith Catholicism because of this.
But the image of the Catholic church will be greatly damaged.
by associate with him the Catholic church de facto take credit over what he say.
And lets not forget that this guy said that the Vatican was controlled by Satan.
Not even a single person is going to convert to Catholicism because of this.
Not even a single person is going to have stronger faith Catholicism because of this.
But the image of the Catholic church will be greatly damaged.
by associate with him the Catholic church de facto take credit over what he say.
And lets not forget that this guy said that the Vatican was controlled by Satan.
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Cinette
Guest
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Cinette
Guest
I do not know the full story but I have come to believe that the Pope is an intelligent, astute, intellectual and holy man whom we can trust. He doesn’t make hasty decisions. Everything is well thought out.
There is no way the Catholic Church would support anti-semitism. While there may have been some Jewish people who might believe that Puis XII had anything to do with the Jewish suffering, many, many Jews have recognised him for what he was. A staunch fighter of Nazism who was responsible for saving over 800 000 Jewish lives during WWII. It is unthinkable that he could be considered anything else be anti-Nazi.
We will discover the truth in due course about all the decisions taken by the Pope and no doubt they will be sound decisions.
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PNEUMA
Guest
The Holocaust museum sign about Pope Pius XII is a lieJewish lies? How’s that?
Please explain.
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PNEUMA
Guest
support anti-semitism ? What anti-semitism ?I do not know the full story but I have come to believe that the Pope is an intelligent, astute, intellectual and holy man whom we can trust. He doesn’t make hasty decisions. Everything is well thought out.
There is no way the Catholic Church would support anti-semitism. While there may have been some Jewish people who might believe that Puis XII had anything to do with the Jewish suffering, many, many Jews have recognised him for what he was. A staunch fighter of Nazism who was responsible for saving over 800 000 Jewish lives during WWII. It is unthinkable that he could be considered anything else be anti-Nazi.
We will discover the truth in due course about all the decisions taken by the Pope and no doubt they will be sound decisions.
Please explain.
I
individual
Guest
Richard Williamson is anti semitic that believe in the protocol of the elder of Zion as well as other crazy thing.support anti-semitism ? What anti-semitism ?
Please explain.
By endorsing him the Catholic church endorsing anti semitism.
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GodsGadfly
Guest
The problem there is that the “ordinary” form in the US is not the “Ordinary Form,” but an admixture of local innovations, several things permitted only by indult (e.g., communion by hand), and a particular translation that has been declared invalid and heretical by Cardinal Arinze in Liturgiam Authenticam.The Ordinary Form has been blessed by the Holy See and is not considered heresy.
I take issue with any “traditionalist” who tries to say that the Latin translation of the New Mass is “heretical”. Granted, there are serious theological questions regarding Eucharistic Prayers II-IV, but those can at least be chalked up to the Church’s power to “loose and bind.”
If you look at the Novus Ordo in Latin (with Eucharistic Prayer 1) and compare it to the Traditional Latin Mass, there really isn’t much difference: mostly just the stripping away of a lot of beautiful poetry and a lot of redudancy from the Extraordinary Form. This is why Benedict calls them “forms”: they’re essentially the same liturgy with just a different artistic expression.
However, if you compare the Latin text of the New Mass to the current English text, there are far more significant differences in meaning than between the two versions of the Latin Mass.
My problem with increased use of the TLM/EF is that expressed by Cardinal Arinze: if people go to the TLM, they will be less inclined to fight for the “Reform of the Reform”. Right now, most of the relatively few parishes that have the New Mass in Latin (e.g., the way EWTN used to do it; what trads call, inaccurately, the “hybrid Mass”) because they don’t have access to the TLM.
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PNEUMA
Guest
Could you document any of this ?
Or is this something you just made up, in your second post in this forum ?
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