Pope Lifts Excommunications of SSPX Bishops

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Does this still count as “news”? Let’s note for the record that Bishop Williamson denies the commonly held scale of the Holocaust, which is still an imprudent view to hold, but he is not a true denier of it.

The excommunication has nothing to do with his views on the Holocaust…he incurred an excommunication for the illicit nature of his ordination. Despite how silly it seems to question the nature of something so well documented as the Holocaust, it has nothing to do with one’s ability to be in communion with Rome.

I suppose there is some “news” in this story - the idea of liberal theologians is nothing new, but Haering should be ashamed of himself…he’s only doing himself a disservice by making disobedient statements like these. Let’s pray for his conversion while ignoring him as best as we can.

Of course I don’t know what you thought about the article itself - those are just my comments on the story, not necessarily to you, DD2007.
 
Does this still count as “news”? Let’s note for the record that Bishop Williamson denies the commonly held scale of the Holocaust, which is still an imprudent view to hold, but he is not a true denier of it.

The excommunication has nothing to do with his views on the Holocaust…he incurred an excommunication for the illicit nature of his ordination. Despite how silly it seems to question the nature of something so well documented as the Holocaust, it has nothing to do with one’s ability to be in communion with Rome.

I suppose there is some “news” in this story - the idea of liberal theologians is nothing new, but Haering should be ashamed of himself…he’s only doing himself a disservice by making disobedient statements like these. Let’s pray for his conversion while ignoring him as best as we can.

Of course I don’t know what you thought about the article itself - those are just my comments on the story, not necessarily to you, DD2007.
I just saw the article on Drudgereport and thought you guys would be interested. This thing is talked about more each day.
 
A quote from the article:

Vienna’s cardinal and archbishop, Christoph Schoenborn, on Sunday lashed out at the decision to bring Williamson back into the fold, saying that “he who denies the Holocaust cannot be rehabilitated within the Church.”

A cardinal said this?!! A CARDINAL?!! :mad: :mad: :banghead:

Where else, but in the Church, can someone be rehabilitated?! Where else does Christ come to us offering forgiveness?! Is he out of his mind? Or has he forgotten that he has his office because God Himself was born a man and suffered and died at the hands of His creation, precisely so that we can be rehabilitated? May God show him the mercy he refuses to others.

Lord, deliver us from the scandal of such men. May they have no influence over the souls of the faithful, unless they preach your Truth. Keep your priests true that we the faithful may not be lost.
 
If the pope declares somebody has excommunicated himself, then he has. That’s it.
num: But it’s never actually the pope who says it. The problem with the current organisation of the Church is that statements are constantly being made by individuals lower down in the chain of command than the one actually legally responsible for the decision. The Balamand Declaration, for example, cannot be said to be an authoritative document, even though it is frequently quoted as such.
And do you not agree that ‘stating someone has excommunicated him/herself’ is not the same thing as ‘excommunicating with authority’? At present, many things are being done ‘in a grey area’ that is contributing to the present crisis of authority in the Church.
To give an example: a teacher can say to a pupil, “Leave the Room”. That’s not the same thing as saying, “You have decided to leave the room”. Or the President of a club can say to a member, “You are expelled from the club”. It’s not the same as saying, “You have expelled yourself from the club”. The member is entirely likely to reply, “No I haven’t”.
The Vatican tried to make an exception of Mgr Lefebvre, Bp de Castro Meyer and the four priests. This action was so full of legal irregularities and clear injustice that it failed to gain credibility with a very large number of the Faithful. Ordinations have continued on a steady basis, and congregations have steadily risen and held firm. Yet (despite the vocal minority who give the SSPX, as any organisation, a bad name) most of them are loyal Catholics, holding the teachings of the Church and putting them into practice. There is no defined dogma that they do not uphold. That is more than can be said, unfortunately, of many bishops, priests, religious and laypeople in positions of power. The constant re-iteration of the charge of disobedience, while ignoring the context, only convinces the SSPX that their critics are in denial of the true State of Emergency in the Church.
The Church is riddled with people - many in important positions of authority - who deny essential dogmas, yet stoutly claim to belong to the Catholic Church. They are encouraged in their stand by the fact that they are not disciplined. At present, although the Church continues to teach, there is very little governing. There has to be Hiring and Firing in any organisation if it is to continue to function. The Church is much more than a visible, human organisation, but it is not less. “We carry a treasure in earthen vessels”.

Hence, if the Church wishes to discipline a member, it is now clear that if this is not done in such a way a that ‘Justice is seen to be done’, the atempt will very likely fail through lack of credibility.
 
:The pope has entire and supreme authority over the Church; he can change or ignore Canon Law, and is the sole and supreme arbiter… [etc]
This is disproved by the conduct of the faithful Catholic bishops during the Arian Crisis.
During this period, as S. Jerome famously remarked, ‘The world awoke and groaned in amazement at finding itself Arian’. Many church historians have commented how, for a period of many decades, the teaching office of the Church was in effect suspended. The huge majority of bishops, for whatever reason, joined the Arian heresy - or rather, constellation of heresies, because like all heresies, by its very nature Arianism was immediately fragmented into innumerable sects. The name most often recalled in this instance is that of S. Athanasius, who worked relentlessly through a long lifetime to combat this gravest of threats. We know the saying, “Athanasius contra Mundum” - ‘Athanasius against the World’. But fortunately, he was not entirely alone. S. Eusebius of Samosata travelled from place to place, not only consecrating bishops, but even giving them jurisdiction over certain dioceses (See Theodoret of Cyr, Histoire ecclésiastique, Migne, tome 82, col,1147-1148; col 1201-1206; footnotes, Is. B.)…”The great Eusebius, having returned from exile, then ordained [keirotonein] Acacius, a man of great renown, as Bishop of Berea, and Theodorus, who was praised by all for his ascetic life, as Bishop of Hierapolis. He then ordained [keirotonein] Eusebius in Calchis, [and] Isidorus in Cyr, both of whom were admirable for their zeal in the Lord’s service…” (etc etc).
num: [keirotonein] literally means “the conferring of office (in Ancient Greek, a king) by the imposition of hands”, and in Church usage is here unambiguously referring to the consecration of bishops.
Fr F. Pivert writes (”Schism or not?” ISBN 0-935952-54-3), “Eusebius even went so far as to declare the Arian bishops deposed, though these were put in place according to the apparent rules of Church Law! Let us imagine Archbishop Lefebvre declaring Cardinal Lustiger deposed and establishing in his place a bishop consecrated by him!”
num: We see from the above that the actions of Mgr Lefebvre were actually much milder than that employed by S. Eusebius, yet the latter was canonised and his actions have never been censured by the Church. This is not, at this point, to claim that this proves Mgr Lefebvre was justified in his concrete actions (although I will argue in another post that they were), but to affirm that his actions were not, in themselves, against Catholic principles. Notice that S. Athanasius & S. Eusebius did not say, “We will remain in obedience to the Pope and leave the rest in God’s Hands”. They appealed above the Positive Law to the higher hierarchies of The Law (see previous posting). I know of someone who was handing out leaflets at a street corner a few years ago. A well-meaning passer-by suggested, “leave it in God’s Hands”. The leafletter held out their own hands and delcared, “But these are God’s Hands!”
During the debates on infallibility during Vatican I (there is full documentation, with examples of rejected drafts as well as the final, approved draft, in Cork Central Library. I’m not sure if it is online) … there were basically three schools of thought: the most extreme wanted to declare every formal statement of the pope to be infallible. The Irish bishops were of this school. The majority were for a qualified statement. After several re-draftings, this carried the day. The third school of thought opposed any statement at all, on the grounds that the Faithful would not understand the nuances, and would begin to exaggerate the infallibility and authority of the pontiff beyond the actuality. When it came to the final vote, this group left Rome before the vote was taken. It was their way of abstaining. Once the vote had been taken, however, nearly all accepted the decision as from the Holy Spirit. A small group aligned themselves with other dissenters into what is currently known as the “Old Catholics’. Having rejected an infallible pronouncemenet of Vatican I, these are schismatic and heretical.
But the problem envisaged by this group did surface in later decades. Fr. Le Floch, superior of the French Seminary in Rome, announced in 1926:
The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility.
Ref: sspx.org/miscellaneous/infallible_magisterium.htm
The real fruit of the current controversy will be a clarification in the common perception of the Faithful about the extent, and limits, of legitimate obedience and authority.
 
Re. this current controversy:

The backlash has begun. Simple as that. And if it wasn’t +Williamson’s remarks, it would be something else.

It will prove useful in identifying who’s who in the coming struggle.
 
A quote from the article:

Vienna’s cardinal and archbishop, Christoph Schoenborn, on Sunday lashed out at the decision to bring Williamson back into the fold, saying that “he who denies the Holocaust cannot be rehabilitated within the Church.”
Even Cardinals like him, who defy the Holy Father, need the grace of God to be rehabilitated.
 
There are more serious issues…

Why did the order come without most of the ones who should have known knowing…

It was so out of the blew that Rome was in upheval not because of the order, but because NO ONE KNEW.

You had cardinals affirming minutes before that there WILL BE NO SUCH THING. And yet…

This order came from the top. And the Pope is on top, but even he has to stay within the plan…

Rome might not be a safe place soon.
Most of you think that the jewish issue came up randomly and made things worst.

Uhuh. This is *all *planned.
 
Even Cardinals like him, who defy the Holy Father, need the grace of God to be rehabilitated.
Well said. And it was Mother Teresa who pointed out (I quote from memory), ‘Even the Middle Classes need hope, help and salvation’.
And S. Clement of Alexandria (?3rd Century) wrote a book entitled ‘Even the Rich Man Can be Saved.’ (Not that that is any concern to me)
 
There are more serious issues…

Why did the order come without most of the ones who should have known knowing…

It was so out of the blew that Rome was in upheval not because of the order, but because NO ONE KNEW.

You had cardinals affirming minutes before that there WILL BE NO SUCH THING. And yet…

This order came from the top. And the Pope is on top, but even he has to stay within the plan…

Rome might not be a safe place soon.
Most of you think that the jewish issue came up randomly and made things worst.

Uhuh. This is *all *planned.
Well, I’ve been a Lay supporter of the SSPX for many years (while refusing to please the Modernists by abandoning our local parish, except over such issues as the TLM) and this document, or one like it, has been expected for several years.
The Modernists, with their compliant friends in the Mass Media, have been systematically blocking the Trads (not just the SSPX) out of a decent Catholic Forum for decades. I was on a Parish Council in the 80s, but when a ‘survey of opinion’ was called for, somehow the trad viewpoint - even when validly raised by me in committee - never found its way into the minutes.
Now reality has caught up.

As for Bp Williamson - he was very foolish indeed to hand ‘them’ this stick to beat him with. He ought to know by now how ‘they’ operate. he was ambushed. (I am not here discussing the content of his comments). But the interview was held in Nov 08. Is it not obvious that ‘they’ have been keeping it in store, and went public with it the minute the ‘rumour’ went public? ‘timing is everything in politics’.
Yet beware of attributing everything to a conspiracy - of any kind. A good and wise priest (RIP) said to me many years ago, 'Never forget… ‘they’ are not as clever as they’d have you believe, and they’re not as powerful as they’d have you believe. They have only as much power as we give them through our little corruptions. They have their agenda, and we have ours. Stick to ours. They are masters of deception. If you try to fathom them, you will be tied in such knots as you won’t know which way is up or down. But we have the Rock of Christ, whereas they have nothing but the Bottomless Pit."
 
Do you guys see the* cativeria* in all this?

Who said that the bishops are in communion with the Church?

Lifting an excommunion does not bring a person back in, it simply lifts the impedement to do so.

Is the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople in commmunion?

Oh yeah he had his excomunication lifted.

The decree was done in a way that left even top curia here with their head spinning.

Somebody had made pressure and it came like death.

This is a plan, but who knows what exactly is it.

Who knows how long this pope is going to last?

Winds change.

Prudence would say not to fly all your flags just yet, because one day you are the admiral, and the next day you are a pirate.
 
The excommunication has nothing to do with his views on the Holocaust…he incurred an excommunication for the illicit nature of his ordination. Despite how silly it seems to question the nature of something so well documented as the Holocaust, it has nothing to do with one’s ability to be in communion with Rome.
That’s not exactly true. The excommunication was about their rebellion against the pope and the Vatican II council. Anti-semitism was rejected at the Vatican council, and Williamson obviously hates Jews. Holocaust-denial is never just a historical misunderstanding, it means that Williamson is extremely racist. This is very much in line with their continuing rejection of Vatican II.

I think the pope didn’t know about Williamson’s public statements, and this took him by surprise.
 
A quote from the article:

Vienna’s cardinal and archbishop, Christoph Schoenborn, on Sunday lashed out at the decision to bring Williamson back into the fold, saying that “he who denies the Holocaust cannot be rehabilitated within the Church.”

A cardinal said this?!! A CARDINAL?!! :mad: :mad: :banghead:
Wait, wait…actually, that article from the Drudge Report is really misleadingly and irresponsibly written. It quotes the wonderful Cardinal Schoenborn alongside outlandish liberal theologians and secular newspapers as though he is joining in the dissident fray…and it writes, radically, that he “lashed out at the decision.” But in fact, the Cardinal is quoted completely out of context. Here is what I found:

cathcon.blogspot.com/2009/01/cardinal-schonborn-criticises-vatican.html

I don’t understand German, so I couldn’t read the full interview, but from what I can tell from the translated remarks, the Cardinal distinguishes carefully between the Pope’s act and the public relations mistakes surrounding its announcement…then he further distinguishes between the lifting of the excommunication and the full rehabilitation of the bishops, which hasn’t happened yet.

So when the Cardinal says a Holocaust denier can’t be rehabilitated, he is simply saying that more work needs to be done before the matter is over and done with; he is not “lashing out” at the Holy Father’s decision.

Hope that reassures some people! Cardinal Schoenborn seems to me like a wonderful prelate: a major public intellectual within the Church…a fervent supporter of Pope Benedict…perhaps even a future pope, himself!

Peace,
+AMDG+
 
Well, I’ve been a Lay supporter of the SSPX for many years (while refusing to please the Modernists by abandoning our local parish, except over such issues as the TLM) and this document, or one like it, has been expected for several years.
The Modernists, with their compliant friends in the Mass Media, have been systematically blocking the Trads (not just the SSPX) out of a decent Catholic Forum for decades. I was on a Parish Council in the 80s, but when a ‘survey of opinion’ was called for, somehow the trad viewpoint - even when validly raised by me in committee - never found its way into the minutes.
Now reality has caught up.

P

As for Bp Williamson - he was very foolish indeed to hand ‘them’ this stick to beat him with. He ought to know by now how ‘they’ operate. he was ambushed. (I am not here discussing the content of his comments). But the interview was held in Nov 08. Is it not obvious that ‘they’ have been keeping it in store, and went public with it the minute the ‘rumour’ went public? ‘timing is everything in politics’.
Yet beware of attributing everything to a conspiracy - of any kind. A good and wise priest (RIP) said to me many years ago, 'Never forget… ‘they’ are not as clever as they’d have you believe, and they’re not as powerful as they’d have you believe. They have only as much power as we give them through our little corruptions. They have their agenda, and we have ours. Stick to ours. They are masters of deception. If you try to fathom them, you will be tied in such knots as you won’t know which way is up or down. But we have the Rock of Christ, whereas they have nothing but the Bottomless Pit."
Pope Paul IV said it himself, the smoke of satan has penetrated the Church.

You think the Church with all its power, all the force of Christ, would fall to this if the evil didn’t come from inside?

Evil only dominates the world when those who are called to fight it not only not fight, but join it.

My friend, we were born into a war that started between St. Micheal and Satan, and God declared it then between the Sons of the Virgin and the Sons of Darkness.

All of History revolves around that.

Always did revolutions start from the top.

Always, the putridness comes from with in.

Wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Oh and you think I’m a modernist or maybe a rad trad?

Neither. I know well both sides are part of the plan.

Virtue is in the middle

Plus, you do know that the false right is worst then the true left?

Our Lord did not fight against the pagans, Our Lord was not betrayed by Romans. Nope.

He was crucified by the LEGITAMATE CONSERVATIVE RIGHT.

But, like always, it was a false right.

Under all those 600 something laws and customs, they were the sinners that sinned with the woman whom they wanted to kill, they were adoring Satan in the Temple.

Does it change much from today?
 
This order came from the top. And the Pope is on top, but even he has to stay within the plan…
Whose plan does the pope have to adhere to? I’d love to hear more about your little theory of what the pope is allowed to do.
 
That’s not exactly true. The excommunication was about their rebellion against the pope and the Vatican II council. Anti-semitism was rejected at the Vatican council, and Williamson obviously hates Jews. Holocaust-denial is never just a historical misunderstanding, it means that Williamson is extremely racist. This is very much in line with their continuing rejection of Vatican II.

I think the pope didn’t know about Williamson’s public statements, and this took him by surprise.
This is calumny, and calumny against a Bishop no less. You have no way of knowing Bishop Williamson’s heart.

Before you jump to conclusions, I don’t agree with His Excellency any more than you do. I believe, however, that calumny against a Bishop is an extremely grave matter. It’s an affront to espiscopal dignity. You have to remember that this man holds the fullness of Christ’s priesthood. It’s perfectly fine to criticise his statements, but this public and constant detraction is totally unacceptable.
 
John Paul I took a half a step back, and he died all of the sudden.

(Some say St. Pius X appeared to him…)

John Paul II was a bit ambiguos for a while at a certain point.

He was shot, and he lived, but it left certain things clear.

There are no free lancers in this world.

You guys uh don’t really think about certain things.

Do you guys know how the Pope was a couple decades back?

How about the new hailed Cardinal Cañizares?

Oh sure they are really conservative.






Gee a while ago they were the spearheads of liberalism.

Saintly conversion?

Uh no. Learn your role.

 
This is calumny, and calumny against a Bishop no less. You have no way of knowing Bishop Williamson’s heart.

Before you jump to conclusions, I don’t agree with His Excellency any more than you do. I believe, however, that calumny against a Bishop is an extremely grave matter. It’s an affront to espiscopal dignity. You have to remember that this man holds the fullness of Christ’s priesthood. It’s perfectly fine to criticise his statements, but public and constant detraction is totally unacceptable.
Who told you that all judgements were sinful?

*Rash *is.

But would it be rash to say that if there is smoke there is fire?

Oh and on the bishop deal, so does Judas.
 
This is calumny, and calumny against a Bishop no less. You have no way of knowing Bishop Williamson’s heart.

Before you jump to conclusions, I don’t agree with His Excellency any more than you do. I believe, however, that calumny against a Bishop is an extremely grave matter. It’s an affront to espiscopal dignity. You have to remember that this man holds the fullness of Christ’s priesthood. It’s perfectly fine to criticise his statements, but this public and constant detraction is totally unacceptable.
What I said about him are deductions based on his statement. If you disagree, perhaps you could present your reasoning? Or another quote from him that clears things up? Or perhaps you could explain the pages on sspx.org that say that Jews are in league with the masons and communists to destroy the Church? I would love to find out that this was all a big misunderstanding, and I’m very willing to listen.
 
What I said about him are deductions based on his statement. If you disagree, perhaps you could present your reasoning? Or another quote from him that clears things up? Or perhaps you could explain the pages on sspx.org that say that Jews are in league with the masons and communists to destroy the Church? I would love to find out that this was all a big misunderstanding, and I’m very willing to listen.
Unless you can see into Bishop Williamson’s soul, you cannot say that he “hates Jews” or is “racist”. You should retract those statements.

This sort of calumny and detraction is especially grave when targetted against a Bishop.
 
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