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bobzills
Guest
On which issue?
9/11 conspiracy
number of Jews killed in WWII
Protocols of the elders of zion?
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9/11 conspiracy
number of Jews killed in WWII
Protocols of the elders of zion?
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Valke2
Guest
I encourage discussion. Here’s my two cents. There is one and only one reason to deny the holocaust. And that is a hatred of Jews. I suppose it is possible that someone could be duped into believing the the antisemites who deny the Holocaust. But such a person would have to be somone with almost no understanding of the history of WWII.
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cassini
Guest
Obviously chosen people you are a jew. Well I am a Catholic. My faith originated with the Jews and was fulfilled in Christianity.Well from your post it should be pretty obvious that the Jews, all fourteen million of us, control everything from the Pope to all parliaments that make laws (that’s why no one ever dares criticize Israel)
I believe the Jews were blessed by God with a superior everything to the gentiles or pagans of pre-Christian times. I believe that if anyone were able to control the world today it could only be the Jews. I may be wrong but don’t they control money matters and media matters? I have read some of the ‘Protocols’ and one can see much of what it says Jewish conspirators were about has come to pass, irrrespective of who wrote them or copied them, or forged them. Surely that is the point of the ‘Protocols’
It is beyond belief to me that governments, who have no problem with the denial of GOD HIMSELF, should make it a crime, punishable by a long prison sentence to be of the opinion that 6 million Jews did not die in Hitler’s gas-chambers some sixty years ago. If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say this was brought about by jews for jews, a good move by Jews for many reasons.
I simply find it a co-incidence that Bishop Williamson’s opinion should ‘conveniently’ appear just as Pope Benedict XVI was lifting the excommunicated tag from the SSPX bishops. If the Jews did not want traditionalists back into the corrodoors of Rome, wouldn’t this have been a great ‘conspiracy theory’?
I have an affinity with Isreal in their conflict with the Muslims (I am on Isreal’s side), so no-one can call me anti-semite whatever that means. I would have thought that it was a bit odd for the Jews - who have just finished their slaughter in Gaza - to draw attention to themselves by calling the kettle black. Note how they argued against this slaughter NOT being a crime. You get jail for an opinion, but not for over-kill
As I heard in the interview, Bishop Williamson said he did not believe that 6 million Jews were killed in mass GAS-CHAMBERS. All pictures I have ever seen of the camps show dead-bodies and thousands of starving people in camps. Nobody denies that many, probably millions, did perish, but not all were Jews, some were Catholics, communists, gypsies, etc. and not all in gas chambers. Bishop Williamson surely does not say there were no Jews put to death in other ways.
One of these reasons could be that Rome now has to demand that the Bishop purge his opinion or face demotion from Bishop to ex-Bishop. This is the Rome that removed the crucifix from rooms that you Jews visited, yes? That would not be tolerated in a traditional Rome would it now? What traditional Bishop would visit the wailing wall and not put a catholic prayer for Jewish conversion in the cracks?
You get my drift chosen people?
Oh, and why would traditionalist Catholics prove to be a thorn in the side of the new ‘relationship’ between Rome and Jewery? Could it be that they might remind all of what that God.man on that crucifix said before His death:
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. But if I say the truth, you believe me not. (John 8: 44/45)
Finally, if what I heard on the news is correct, that Rome want the Bishop to ‘recant’ or he will be a Bishop no longer, even more hypocritical. Sure they can get the Bishop to say he was sorry he said it in an interview he probably knew would go public, but you cannot change what is in a person’s heart.
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pnewton
Guest
Excuse me? We are discussing it here. Do you buy into a lot of conspiracy theories or just this one?
BTW - you left your blinker on.
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avflf
Guest
You see it too? And as you are also aware whoever dares to criticize Israel becomes a pariah and is automatically labeled anti-Semitic, which is quite funny as the majority of you guys are not even Semites.Well from your post it should be pretty obvious that the Jews, all fourteen million of us, control everything from the Pope to all parliaments that make laws (that’s why no one ever dares criticize Israel)
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avflf
Guest
Yep, I buy into the conspiracy theory (singular). And you?
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avflf
Guest
I rest my case. Se my reply to “chose people”
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pnewton
Guest
Not at all. I have seen the photographs and been to the Holocaust museum.
- The photos, in a time before photoshop, and the evidence of slaughter that was stopped in mid-action during the invasion of Germany belies the possibility that of such a low number.
- It is unreasonable to imagine that a country engaged in an all out war, the total economy geared toward victory would have built gas chambers they did not use.
- I can not except a cover-up that included both the U.S. and the Soviet Union.
- I can not believe that the returning soliders and all those in the concentration camps could be combined in such massive campaign to make up this story. There was sufficient anti-semetism at the time to expose the story as a lie, if it had been.
- Occam’s razor. When one can not know a thing with certainty, eliminate the wildly improbable. I use it on many things since most things in the world we can not know with certainty.
- I am Catholic. I trust the Vatican, especially when there logic is much clearer than dissenters like Williamson. I may at some point be wrong (this is unavoidable), but I will remain loyal (this is a matter of choice).
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Agripa
Guest
My mother’s family came from Poland just prior to the First World War and like many Jews of that era, many of them converted to Catholicism or had their children baptized Catholic to better escape the rampant pogroms in Eastern Europe and to find easier passage to America.
I am proud of both my Jewish and Catholic heritage and fully expect to see plenty-o-Jews in the afterlife.
I am proud of both my Jewish and Catholic heritage and fully expect to see plenty-o-Jews in the afterlife.
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tuviskazinai
Guest
Dear friends, I am wondering whether perhaps those among us who would like to challenge the obvious veracity of the Holocaust would be willing to start a new thread? It is really not on-topic here, and I know that if that discussion gets going, it will take pages and pages and probably never stop.
If this interests you, one of you can just let us know that you’ve started a new thread. I, for one, will see you there, and I think I am not the only one with volumes and volumes to say about your remarks.
Peace,
+AMDG+
If this interests you, one of you can just let us know that you’ve started a new thread. I, for one, will see you there, and I think I am not the only one with volumes and volumes to say about your remarks.
Peace,
+AMDG+
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avflf
Guest
There was no need for Photo-shop to doctor photos and they did it, crudely as it was done, but if you study the photos taken of the same subject at different times you can easily spot the brush touches, or superimposed images. The opinion of conventional historians is that the gassings started around 1943 at the time when Germany became bogged down and loosing the fight.
Revisionist historians have been asking for years to be shown a gas chamber - one only, and nobody has been capable of showing them one. The ridiculous structure that is shown as a gas chamber is totally incapable to be used as such.
OK, you don’t believe in conspiracies either, but remember that if the same group of people control both nations there would be no problem in parroting the same line.
Those same soldiers swore on all that was holy that the camps in Western Germany were death camps but we now know that they were what they were built for - plain concentration camps. Only the ones under the control of the Soviets kept the extermination status and the Soviet Union refused impartial observers from entering them till years after the war ended.
I do too and the evidence suggests that the simplest explanation is that the Holocaust as you understand it did not take place
That is your prerogative and I respect your beliefs and stance.
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numealinesimpet
Guest
I don’t know of anybody who denies the camps existed. I have a friend, born & living in Holland, who lived through the War. He visited Auschwitz after the war & saw a notice over the entrance stating that 4 million had perished there. The next time he visited the same place, the sign had been altered to 1.4 million.
Obviously, he or I could be lying. I believed him, knowing his character, and I am telling you the truth about what he told me now.
This has nothing to do with personal attitudes to Jews or anybody else. The Holocaust is an historical question like any other. Any disputes should be answered by supplying and evaluating the evidence, should they not?
For example, the Nazis were famous for their meticulous documentation - some would call it obsessive. Does it still exist?
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Agripa
Guest
Evidence of the Holocaust, like all evidence reviewed by a trier of fact comes from many sources which must reach a prescribed level of credibility. How we know the extent of the merciless killings comes from the war crimes trials held before an international military tribunal at Nuremberg. While the “meticulous” Nazi’s were pretty efficient in burning many of the very records in Berlin that recorded their crimes and Allied bombing also destroyed valuable records, some 3000 tonnes of records were presented at the trials.
Allied armies also located documents at other locations in Europe and there were records kept by the 22 German criminals tried at Nuremberg. NOTE: None of these thugs denied the Holocaust.
Many other documents and copies of otherwise destroyed documents in central locations were found in Gestapo offices all accross Germany.
The Germans were facinated with films and photography and their own film was used against them in the trials.
Film from the US Army Signal Corps also documented the horrific findings by our liberating soldiers.
We have countless eyewitness accounts by survivors of these places.
We have countless reports by families, children, relatives, who never saw loved ones again after they were taken, adducted or otherwise forced from their homes.
So, unless folks are willing to refute what vast work has long been done in documenting the Holocaust, I suggest those who say otherwise be relegated to idiocy.
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numealinesimpet
Guest
Thank you. That sounds reasonable to me. I also know that the figure above the Auschwitz camp underwent a surprising transformation. I understand how painful it must be to those directly involved, personally, through their families, etc. But there are many other tragic stories in the world to be told, and my perception is that there is an element of overkill in presenting the official version of all this, and crushing dissenting claims, to put it mildly. It leads people to begin to say, "Methinks he doth protest too much’.Evidence of the Holocaust, like all evidence reviewed by a trier of fact comes from many sources which must reach a prescribed level of credibility. How we know the extent of the merciless killings comes from the war crimes trials held before an international military tribunal at Nuremberg. While the “meticulous” Nazi’s were pretty efficient in burning many of the very records in Berlin that recorded their crimes and Allied bombing also destroyed valuable records, some 3000 tonnes of records were presented at the trials.
Allied armies also located documents at other locations in Europe and there were records kept by the 22 German criminals tried at Nuremberg. NOTE: None of these thugs denied the Holocaust.
Many other documents and copies of otherwise destroyed documents in central locations were found in Gestapo offices all accross Germany.
The Germans were facinated with films and photography and their own film was used against them in the trials.
Film from the US Army Signal Corps also documented the horrific findings by our liberating soldiers.
We have countless eyewitness accounts by survivors of these places.
We have countless reports by families, children, relatives, who never saw loved ones again after they were taken, adducted or otherwise forced from their homes.
So, unless folks are willing to refute what vast work has long been done in documenting the Holocaust, I suggest those who say otherwise be relegated to idiocy.
I think a calm statement of fact, such as Agripa has been kind enough to furnish, would have done more good than 90% of what I have read in the past fortnight about the Holocaust.
Actually, for the record, not only do I believe the fact of the Holocaust - reserving opinion on actual figures - but I have encountered what I think is overwhelming evidence of Satanic manipulation of the whole Nazi war effort, and particularly in the extermination camps, where one notes not only more-than human cunning in the way the victims were manipulated, but a preoccupation not merely with killing, but in trying to get as many as posible into mortal sin. There was more to all this than meets the eye. I am not posting specifics out of respect for the victims and their families.
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JReducation
Guest
You may want to read the documentation and the letters provided to the procurators for the causes of saints in the cases of St. Edith Stein and St. Maximilian Kolbe. The Franciscans in Assisi have a wonderful library in which they have stored hundreds of testimonies of Franciscan friars from around Europe who were prisoners in the concentration camps and who bear witness to the gas chambers and the lethal injections used to kill the Jews.
St. Maximilian him self was subject to both. St. Edith Stein to the gas chamber. This was proven at her canonization investigation. Both of them left letters and journals for their fellow Franciscans and Carmelites archives speaking of these chambers.
Brother Maximilian gave his life to save a Jew from the gas chambers. If there were not such a thing, why would Br. Max volunteer for such torture that did not exist?
You may also want to read the Army Medical Journals published after the liberation of the camps.
If there is one thing that we know about canonizations is that they are thorough in their investigations. I don’t think that the Jews participated in the process of either Maximilian Kolbe or Edith Stein.
I would rather take my chances with the documents left by both of these saints than the testimony of Bishop Williamson who simply apologized for the inconvenience that he caused the Church, not to the Jewish people or even to the saints who gave up their lives for the Jewish peope, much less to our Jewish Catholic saints.
Fraternally,
JR
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cassini
Guest
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Valke2
Guest
Congruent with the evidence that shows Hitler was responsible for the order to kill Jews, there is also evidence that shows he was made aware of the process. In December 1942 Hitler received a document entitled “Report to the Führer on Combating Partisans” from Himmler stating that 363,211 Jews had been killed by the Einsatzgruppen in August-November 1942.[30] This document was marked “Shown to the Führer”.[8]
Report to Hitler detailing the executions of prisoners.As noted by Peter Longerich, Gestapo Chief Heinrich Müller sent a telegram on August 2, 1941, ordering that “especially interesting illustrative” material should be sent to Berlin because “the Führer should be presented with continuous reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the east from here”.[31] Because of this, critics of Holocaust denial reject the suggestion that Hitler lost interest in antisemitism after attaining power in 1933, finding it “hard to believe that a man who had lost his antisemitism was so interested in situational reports on the killings of Jewish men, women and children while engaged in a war.”[32]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial
Report to Hitler detailing the executions of prisoners.As noted by Peter Longerich, Gestapo Chief Heinrich Müller sent a telegram on August 2, 1941, ordering that “especially interesting illustrative” material should be sent to Berlin because “the Führer should be presented with continuous reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the east from here”.[31] Because of this, critics of Holocaust denial reject the suggestion that Hitler lost interest in antisemitism after attaining power in 1933, finding it “hard to believe that a man who had lost his antisemitism was so interested in situational reports on the killings of Jewish men, women and children while engaged in a war.”[32]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial
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Valke2
Guest
I am currently talking about the “evacuation” of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that is easily said. ‘The Jewish people is being exterminated,’ every Party member will tell you, ‘perfectly clear, it’s part of our plans, we’re eliminating the Jews, exterminating them.’
Himler 1943
Himler 1943
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Valke2
Guest
We came to the question: How is it with the women and children? I decided to find a clear solution here as well. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men - in other words, to kill them or have them killed - and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be taken to make this people disappear from the earth.
Himler again.
Himler again.
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bobzills
Guest
The link to this article you have given us is written by a Mr. David Cole. However, here is what Mr. David Cole later on said about his denial of the holocaust:
“I would like to state for the record that there is no question in my mind that during the Holocaust of Europe’s Jews during World War Two, the Nazis employed gas chambers in an attempt to commit genocide against the Jews. At camps in both Eastern and Western Europe, Jews were murdered in gas chambers which employed such poison gases as Zyklon B and carbon monoxide (in the Auschwitz camp, for example, the gas chambers used Zyklon B). The evidence for this is overwhelming and unmistakable.
The Nazis intended to kill all of the Jews of Europe, and the final death toll of this attempted genocide was six million. This atrocity, unique in its scope and breadth, must never be forgotten. “
So he completely repudiates the statements which you have attributed to him in this link.
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