Pope List

[hlgomez]

Fr. A,

Further to that. What’s your explanation why Jesus gave the keys to Peter alone?

Btw, Peter being head is not ignorant. You can see why he didn’t argue with Paul when he was rebuked. Most probably he also sees that his actions were wrong. After all, who is perfect after receiving the Lord? We all have the tendency to commit something contrary to the Lord’s will even if we have received him for all have sinned *and may continue to sin–*but is no more slave of sin. Isn’t also that Peter was heeding the words of the Lord when He said that “the first among you is the servant of all”?

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Fr. A,

In reference to your argument of what Augustine says, here’s what he says also about Peter.

"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’" (*Sermons *295:2 [A.D. 411]).

“Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is ‘I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ’s enemies” (*Commentary on Psalm 108 *1 [A.D. 415]).

"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (*Commentary on John *56:1 [A.D. 416]).

Pio

 

[Exporter]

Peter and the Papacy
catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

This address is a Catholic Source, and treats the Protestant diminution of Peter with Scripture and other references.

The first time Jesus saw Simon Bar Jona, Jesus named him Cephas.(John1:42) Andrew,Simon’s brother led Simon Bar Jona to see Jesus. And Jesus looking on Simon said “Thou art Simon, the son of Jona. Thou shall be called Cephas”. Jona is the spelling in the Douay-Rheims Bible]

They were speaking Aramaic, Cephas in Aramaic means a stone or a rock of any size. Later, when Chephas was translated into Greek there was a small problem. There was not a masculine name for a big Rock: only Petra which is little rock. So in the translation to Greek Cephas was translated as Petros, a new word meaning big Rock: and into English it is Peter.

In Matt16:18-19, Jesus said to Peter(Cephas), “Thou art Peter (Cephas) and upon this Rock (Chephas) I will build my church”.

Let us substitute Cephas for Peter…and that would be acceptable. Now read carefully!
“Thou art Cephas and on this Rock ( or Cephas) I will build my Church”. That is what Jesus said!

How can any thinking man construe this to mean that Jesus was talking about something that was said earlier i.e., a so-called “confession” by Peter (Cephas). One has to wiggle and squirm to get away from the plain meaning of Jesus’words; but some people do just that!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

From the eastern and western patriarchs from the General Council of Chalcedon, to Pope Leo I:

ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-12/Npnf2-12-98.htm

“and besides all this [Dioscoros, Patriarch of Alexandria] stretched forth his fury even against him who had been charged with the custody of the vine by the Saviour, we mean of course your holiness” (Letter 98 from the Council of Chalcedon to Leo)

Today, we often hear the revisionist claim that the Pope aquired his primacy due to political or secular influence or authority. However, this is not what the bishops of east and west at Chalcedon understood. They explicitly state that the Pope’s authority came from Christ, just as Catholicism today continues to assert.

The letter continues …

… being set as the mouthpiece unto all of the blessed Peter … you were Chief, as Head to the members … And we further inform you that we have decided on other things also for the good management and stability of church matters, being persuaded that your holiness will accept and ratify them, when you are told. … we have yielded agreement to the Head in noble things, so may the Head also fulfill what is fitting for the children … the See of Constantinople will receive its recompense for having always displayed such loyalty on matters of religion towards you, and for having so zealously linked itself to you in full agreement. (ibid)

Do the bishops of east and west at Chalcedon seem to believe that Pope Leo is just another bishop among bishops? Or do the bishops of Chalcedon seem to be asserting what Catholicism continues to assert: the primacy of both honor and jurisdictional authority of the Bishop of Rome over the entire Church?

 

[hlgomez]

Do the bishops of east and west at Chalcedon seem to believe that Pope Leo is just another bishop among bishops? Or do the bishops of Chalcedon seem to be asserting what Catholicism continues to assert: the primacy of both honor and jurisdictional authority of the Bishop of Rome over the entire Church?

Fr. A who refuses to acknowledge this truth gives it a different meaning, as always. He is not convinced by our explanation though they are clear as crystal. Only God can give him the eyes to believe (if he ever be open to that).

Pio

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Ozzie:

Problem is there’s no real historical proof that Peter ever served as Bishop of Rome. Especially for as many years as the chart specifies. And not even Augustine believed that Peter himself is the “Rock” in the Matthew passage, but instead Peter’s confession. He once believed it was Peter himself but then changed his mind.

Catholic Answers:

And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. (It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’

Then why did Jesus call Peter rock and not say that just his belief was rock?

Jesus said “You are rock, and on this kepha I will build my Church.”

When Jesus said on ***this ***rock, it was clear that He was referring to Peter not only Peter’s belief. This is because just before He said “on ***this ***rock”, He said “You are rock” referring to Peter, not only Peter’s belief.

“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven”

Come on Ozzie! Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven!!

It’s right in the Bible!

 

[Exporter]

Ozzie:

Problem is there’s no real historical proof that Peter ever served as Bishop of Rome. Especially for as many years as the chart specifies. And not even Augustine believed that Peter himself is the “Rock” in the Matthew passage, but instead Peter’s confession. He once believed it was Peter himself but then changed his mind.

---

Ozzie refered to a passage in Matthew, Matt 16:17 - 19. Any plain reading of the relavent passages tells the reader that Cephas ( formerly Simon Bar Jonah) was the Peter that we refer to. Aramaic was the language that Jesus was speaking, and Cephas in Aramaic means rock. Later when translated into Greek, Cephas became Petros. In the translation the interpreter was limited to the Greek word Petra, but Petra is feminine- so he coined the word that was masculine in Greek, Petros! We changed Petros to Peter.

In the Jewish culture a man was only given a new name if he was taking on a new and important job. That explains why Jesus gave Simon Bar Jonah a new name! See John 1:v42.

John 16:18.:" And I say to thee; That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". Peter means Rock, agreed? If peter = rock, lets substitute the word rock for Peter.

“…That thou art Rock, and upon this Rock I will build my church”. This simply says, that Jesus will build His Church upon this Rock…not another Rock, but THIS ROCK. This Rock was Peter (Cephas…Simon Bar Jonah).

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

hlgomez:

Fr. A,

Further to that. What’s your explanation why Jesus gave the keys to Peter alone?

I refer to the greatest Doctor of the Western Church, Saint Augustine. His teaching is *not * that our Lord gave the keys to Peter alone.

From Saint Augustine’s sermon on the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul…

"Our Lord Jesus Christ, in the final days of His earthly life, in the days of His mission to the race of man, chose from among the disciples His twelve Apostles for preaching the Word of God. Among them, the Apostle Peter for his fiery ardour was vouchsafed to occupy the first place (Mt 10:2 ) and to be as it were the representative person for all the Church. And therefore it is said to him, preferentially, after the confession: "And I give thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and if thou bindest upon the earth, it will be bound in the Heavens: and if thou loosenest upon the earth, it will be loosened in the Heavens (Mt 16; 19 ). Wherefore it was not one man, but rather the One Universal Church, that received these “keys” and the right “to bind and
loosen.” And that actually it was the Church that received this right, and not exclusively a single person, turn your attention to another place of the Scriptures, where the same Lord says to also all His Apostles: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit” – and further after this: “Whoseso sins ye remit, are remitted them: and whoseso sins ye retain, are retained” (Jn 20:22-23 ); or: “with what ye bind upon the earth, will be bound in Heaven: and with what ye loosen upon the earth, will be loosened in the Heavens” (Mt 18:18 ). Thus, it is the Church that binds, the Church that
loosens; the Church, built upon the foundational corner-stone – Jesus Christ Himself (Eph 2:20 ) doth bind and loosen. Let both the binding and the loosening be feared: the loosening, in order not to fall under this again; the binding, in order not to remain forever in this condition. Wherefore “by the passions of his own sins – says Wisdom – is each ensnared” (Prov 5:22 ); and except for Holy Church nowhere is it possible to receive the loosening.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

People please. We are all intelligent adults. We get messages from Scripture in terms of themes and types. Jesus clearly meant to have an authority structure in His Church. Obviously, the only valid authority is that ordained by Christ Himself. Paul was an apostle. Jesus appeared directly to him. He met with Peter.

We can get the message. We can evade and deny the message because of our own reasons why we don’t like this idea of authority etc. The simple fact is Jesus did not leave us orphaned and part of that is the “Fathers” of our Church including the Holy Father.

We need to see Jesus’ pure intentions.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Fr Ambrose:

Wherefore it was not one man, but rather the One Universal Church, that received these “keys” and the right “to bind and loosen.” And that actually it was the Church that received this right, and not exclusively a single person,

Well, Father that’s not what Scripture says, is it?

Scripture says “you are rock” and “I give you the keys”

Of course you don’t want it to be Peter as a type for the Church, because then your presuppositional Body is less valid.

We don’t fit Scripture to the state we have, we change our state to fit Scripture.

This is Christian maturity.

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Greg_McPherran:

Well, Father that’s not what Scripture says, is it?

It is what the Church believes and has believed from the beginning as to the significance of the keys. They are not restricted to the Apostle Peter. However, during the latter half of the first millennium the Church of Rome began to interpret it to apply only to Peter, and this was a means to bolster the authority of the bishop of Rome.

As you can see from what Saint Augustine wrote in the 4th century, the great Fathers and Doctors of the Church *did not * interpret the verse in the modern Roman Catholic way. They did not restrict the keys to Peter and I don’t think we could say that these men, some of the most holy and most intelligent in the history of the Church, were ignorant or partisan or “immature.” But they were, of course, 100% orthodox

 

[Exporter]

Father Ambrose, a post you made contained the following passage. I am going to ask you to explain two things in that passage. I will put the words in question in bold fonts.

"Among them, the Apostle Peter for his fiery ardour was vouchsafed to occupy the first place (Mt 10:2 ) and to be as it were the representative person for all the Church. And therefore it is said to him, preferentially, after the confession: "And I give thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and if thou bindest upon the earth, it will be bound in the Heavens: and if thou loosenest upon the earth, it will be loosened in the Heavens (Mt 16; 19 ). Wherefore it was not one man, but rather the One Universal Church, that received these “keys” and the right “to bind and
loosen.” And that actually it was the Church that received this right, and not exclusively a single person, turn your attention to another place of the Scriptures, where the same Lord says to also all His Apostles: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit” – and further after this: “Whoseso sins ye remit, are remitted them: and whoseso sins ye retain, are retained” (Jn 20:22-23 ); or: “with what ye bind upon the earth, will be bound in Heaven: and with what ye loosen upon the earth, will be loosened in the Heavens” (Mt 18:18 ). Thus, it is the Church that binds, the Church that
loosens; the Church, built upon the foundational corner-stone – Jesus Christ Himself (Eph 2:20 ) doth bind and loosen

---

1. Are you a Catholic Priest?
2. You use the words that Protestants use ( the confession) to talk about Matt16:18-19. They ( your words) say Jesus was going to build His Church on the confession of Peter(Cephas) not on Peter. Jesus said "You are the Rock( Cephas or Peter), and I will build my Church upon this Rock (Cephas or Peter). Are you telling us that Jesus did not build His Church on Peter the Rock?
   3.The last bold-face phrase reiterates your using a Protestant theology to say that Jesus did not build His Church on St. Peter. You say Jesus “built His Church on the confession of Peter”. Father Ambrose, if you are a Father, you should know more than I do. But, are you going to tell me that the Magisterium made a great mistake when they built St. Peter’s Basillica in the Vatican, that it is a myth that St. Peter was just another Apostle and not the ROCK? I may be a bit bold here, but I have to ask these questions so they are understood.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Exporter:

Father Ambrose, a post you made contained the following passage. I am going to ask you to explain two things in that passage. I will put the words in question in bold fonts.

"Among them, the Apostle Peter for his fiery ardour was vouchsafed to occupy the first place (Mt 10:2 ) and to be as it were the representative person for all the Church. And therefore it is said to him, preferentially, after the confession: "And I give thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and if thou bindest upon the earth, it will be bound in the Heavens: and if thou loosenest upon the earth, it will be loosened in the Heavens (Mt 16; 19 ). Wherefore it was not one man, but rather the One Universal Church, that received these “keys” and the right “to bind and
loosen.” And that actually it was the Church that received this right, and not exclusively a single person, turn your attention to another place of the Scriptures, where the same Lord says to also all His Apostles: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit” – and further after this: “Whoseso sins ye remit, are remitted them: and whoseso sins ye retain, are retained” (Jn 20:22-23 ); or: “with what ye bind upon the earth, will be bound in Heaven: and with what ye loosen upon the earth, will be loosened in the Heavens” (Mt 18:18 ). Thus, it is the Church that binds, the Church that
loosens; the Church, built upon the foundational corner-stone – Jesus Christ Himself (Eph 2:20 ) doth bind and loosen

---

1. Are you a Catholic Priest?

In my terms, yes, because I am am member of the Catholic Church - of the Orthodox Church, and more specifically of the Russian Orthodox Church.

In Roman Catholic terms, I don’t really know the answer. Sometimes they see us as being Catholic and at other times they see us as being schismatic and heretical.

1. You use the words that Protestants use ( the confession) to talk about Matt16:18-19.

It is Saint Augustine, not me, who is using that word “confession.” It strikes me as odd that you would say that Augustine is using a Protestant word.

They ( your words) say Jesus was going to build His Church on the confession of Peter(Cephas) not on Peter. Jesus said "You are the Rock( Cephas or Peter), and I will build my Church upon this Rock (Cephas or Peter). Are you telling us that Jesus did not build His Church on Peter the Rock?

I have to say again that these are not MY words, but the words of Saint Augustine who is considered the greatest Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church.

3.The last bold-face phrase reiterates your using a Protestant theology to say that Jesus did not build His Church on St. Peter. You say Jesus “built His Church on the confession of Peter”.

Not my words and not using Protestant theology. They are Saint Augustine’s words and you need to ask HIM why he is using Protestant theology.

Father Ambrose, if you are a Father, you should know more than I do. But, are you going to tell me that the Magisterium made a great mistake when they built St. Peter’s Basillica in the Vatican, that it is a myth that St. Peter was just another Apostle and not the ROCK? I may be a bit bold here, but I have to ask these questions so they are understood.

Like Saint Augustine the Orthodox do not believe that Peter is the rock. But Peter was not just another Apostle either. He was singled out for special attention by our Lord.

 

[WBB]

Fr Ambrose:

In Roman Catholic terms, I don’t really know the answer. Sometimes they see us as being Catholic and at other times they see us as being schismatic and heretical.

Funny! I think the Orthodox see us as the heretical and schismatic ones!

I for one am very fond of my Orthodox brothers and sisters, and I certainly see them as Catholic. We share so much in common, and I pray for unity in our churches every day.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hello Father,

Far be it from me to question your maturity, I was just saying to see things without bias and was speaking in general terms.
Fr Ambrose:

As you can see from what Saint Augustine wrote in the 4th century, the great Fathers and Doctors of the Church *did not *interpret the verse in the modern Roman Catholic way.

That’s 'cause they (although helpful with theology) didn’t have the keys.

I could see a sense in whish the keys are held by the whole Church but only in union with Peter’s office and never separate.

For example, Protestants love to show how Jerome didn’t like the deuterocanonicals but Jerome accepted the decision of the Church. Similarly, your’s and Augustine’s opinion (although a great theologian) does not hold the same weight as the Church who holds the keys.

The one who was given the keys can also teach you what it means.

I agree with all that union is good and mandated by Jesus. Disunity is unChristian.

Greg

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Greg_McPherran:

The one who was given the keys can also teach you what it means.
Greg

You’re begging the question

The witness of the Church Fathers is that it is not only the bishop of Rome who holds the keys, but every bishop who “rightly divides the word of truth.”

In this I think it is better to follow the teachings of the Church Fathers than a new teaching which developed very late in the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[prodromos]

Exporter:

The last bold-face phrase reiterates your using a Protestant theology to say that Jesus did not build His Church on St. Peter. You say Jesus “built His Church on the confession of Peter”.

The latter is actually how the majority of church fathers understand this passage, so it is actually Catholic theology which the Protestants have stumbled upon for the wrong reasons. We Orthodox hold to this view because it is the faith that was handed down to us from the Apostles. The Protestants hold to this view because they reject the papacy.

John.

 

[Myhrr]

Greg_McPherran:

For example, Protestants love to show how Jerome didn’t like the deuterocanonicals but Jerome accepted the decision of the Church. Similarly, your’s and Augustine’s opinion (although a great theologian) does not hold the same weight as the Church who holds the keys.

The one who was given the keys can also teach you what it means.

This is what the Church which holds the keys says about it:

Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs, 1848**
A Reply to the Epistle of Pope Pius IX, “to the Easterns”**

To All the Bishops Everywhere, Beloved in the Holy Ghost, Our Venerable, Most Dear Brethren; and to their Most Pious Clergy; and to All the Genuine Orthodox Sons of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church: Brotherly Salutation in the Holy Spirit, and Every Good From God, and Salvation.

The holy, evangelical and divine Gospel of Salvation should be set forth by all in its original simplicity, and should evermore be believed in its unadulterated purity, even the same as it was revealed to His holy Apostles by our Savior, who for this very cause, descending from the bosom of God the Father, *made Himself of no reputation and took upon Him the form of a servant *(Phil. ii. 7); even the same, also, as those Apostles, who were ear and eye witnesses, sounded it forth, like clear-toned trumpets, to all that are under the sun (for their sound is gone out into all lands, and their words into the ends of the world);and, last of all, the very same as the many great and glorious Fathers of the Catholic Church in all parts of the earth, who heard those Apostolic voices, both by their synodical and their individual teachings handed it down to all everywhere, and even unto us. But the Prince of Evil, that spiritual enemy of man’s salvation, as formerly in Eden, craftily assuming the pretext of profitable counsel, he made man to become a transgressor of the divinely-spoken command. so in the spiritual Eden, the Church of God, he has from time to time beguiled many; and, mixing the deleterious drugs of heresy with the clear streams of orthodox doctrine, gives of the potion to drink to many of the innocent who live unguardedly, not *giving earnest heed to the things they have heard *(Heb. ii. 10), *and to what they have been told by their fathers *(Deut. xxxii. 7), in accordance with the Gospel and in agreement with the ancient Doctors; and who, imagining that the preached and written Word of the LORD and the perpetual witness of His Church are not sufficient for their souls’ salvation, impiously seek out novelties, as we change the fashion of our garments, embracing a counterfeit of the evangelical doctrine.

§ 2. Hence have arisen manifold and monstrous heresies, which the Catholic Church, even from her infancy, taking unto her the whole armor of God, and assuming the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God (Eph. vi. 13-17,) has been compelled to combat. She has triumphed over all unto this day, and she will triumph forever, being manifested as mightier and more illustrious after each struggle.

continued/

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi Father,
Fr Ambrose:

In this I think it is better to follow the teachings of the Church Fathers than a new teaching which developed very late in the Roman Catholic Church.

I guess I would have to research further to discuss how the development/formalization of the papacy is valid. I still maintain that having the keys allows more authoritative teaching than being a Church Father unless you believe they too have the keys. However, if this teaching has changed or was implied otherwise I would like to learn more about that in order to understand better.

Nonetheless, it is a matter of faith. Many people do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah but I have faith in Jesus and not their words. Similarly, if someone tells me the papacy is invalid, I listen to the pope instead of whoever says it.

My sheep know my voice. It’s in that category of belief.

Greg

 

[Myhrr]

continued/

§ 3. Ofthese heresies, some already have entirely failed, some are in decay, some have wasted away, some yet flourish in a greater or less degree vigorous until the time of their return to the Faith, while others are reproduced to run their course from their birth to their destruction. For being the miserable cogitations and devices of miserable men, both one and the other, struck with the thunderbolt of the anathema of the seven Ecumenical Councils, shall vanish away, though they may last a thousand years; for the orthodoxy of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, by the living Word of God, alone endures for ever, according to the infallible promise of the LORD: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matt. xviii. 18). Certainly, the mouths of ungodly and heretical men, however bold, however plausible and fair-speaking, however smooth they may be, will not prevail against the orthodox doctrine winning, its way silently and without noise. But, wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? (Jer. xii. 1.) *Why are the ungodly exalted and lifted up as the cedars of Lebanon *(Ps. xxxvii. 35), to defile the peaceful worship of God? The reason of this is mysterious, and the Church, though daily praying that this cross, this messenger of Satan, may depart from her, ever hears from the Lord: My *grace is sufficient for thee, my strength is made perfect in weakness *(2. Cor. xii. 9). Wherefore she gladly glories in her infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon her, and that they which are approved may be made manifest (1. Cor. x. 19).

§ 4. Of these heresies diffused, with what sufferings the LORD hath known, over a great part of the world, was formerly Arianism, and at present is the Papacy. This, too, as the former has become extinct, although now flourishing, shall not endure, but pass away and be cast down, and a great voice from heaven shall cry: *It is cast down *(Rev. xii. 10).

continued on:

esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Encyclical%201848%20Esphigmenou.htm

May, 1848, Indiction 6.

• ANTHIMOS, by the Mercy of God, Archbishop of Constantinople, new Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.
• HIEROTHEUS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Alexandria and of all Egypt, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.
• METHODIOS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of the great City of God, Antioch, and of all Anatolia, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.
• CYRIL, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Jerusalem and of all Palestine, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.