Pope makes Turkish mosque visit

[A.Pelliccio]

So the Pope is in Constantinople and instead of the world having their focus on the dialogue between our separated brothers to the East and us, we have shifted our focus onto the potential ‘scandal’ with the Pope and Islam.

From BBC: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6158811.stm

Even sadder today when the Pope entered the Sancta (Hagia) Sophia and did not cross himself or kneel in prayer.

’ . . .he Pope spent half an hour in Hagia Sophia, a domed complex that was once a Christian centre before becoming a mosque and eventually, a museum. . .The demonstrators warned that any hint of a prayer there would be deeply offensive, but the Pope refrained from any religious gesture, such as praying or crossing himself.’

It gets better ’ . . . Having removed his shoes, the Pope paused for a full two minutes, eyes closed in prayer, standing side-by-side with the Mufti of Istanbul and the Imam of the Blue Mosque. . .’

Anyone see anything wrong with this picture, even Paul VI feel to his knees in prayer at the Sancta Sophia. This is the second visit to a Mosque by a Pope and both have been a disappointment. The Pope should not ignore one of Christendom’s most beautiful sites to go pray with heathens.

 

[puzzleannie]

newsflash, in Christian prayer, kneeling, sign of the cross or other outward gestures are optional

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I believe the Pope is thinking about the lives that will be spared if he does not spark Muslim outrage. I think he is thinking that with careful diplomacy, he may be able to make a difference in Muslim-Christian relations. To the best of my knowledge, the Hagia Sophia is no longer considered by the Catholic Church to be a Catholic Church. It is a museum and he had no reason to cross himself publicly. I’m sure he had plenty going on in his heart and that is what matters. Did it not occur to you that maybe the Holy Spirit is guiding the Pope in his actions?

Muslims are not heathens, and that seems to be a deliberately inflammatory statement. I’m glad our Pope shows true Christian love by praying with non-Catholics. He did not bow down on a prayer mat and recite Muslim prayers. He prayed in his heart to the Lord in the house of worship of Islam. What barriers may have been broken because he did this, I do not know. But I’m sure that by acting as he has, he has paved the road for more Muslims to actually respect him than hate him. And if they respect him, perhaps some of them will hear his message. With God all things are possible.

 

[LilyM]

:clapping:

Indeed it isn’t a church - hasn’t been for hundreds of years. So making gestures of prayer or reverence there is entirely optional.

Not to mention that he himself received death threats for even daring to go to Turkey, let alone to Hagia Sophia, which I am sure Muslims feel passionately about as we do. He did more than enough to prove his fearlessness and stand up for himself by simply going.

 

[AJV]

The way I see it the Pope was in a bit of a dilemma. When the mufti said let’s turn and pray:
The Pope could turn and say, make the sign of the cross, but you can imagine the reaction.
Ignore the mufti and remain facing in another direction while the mufti prayed. And you can imagine that reaction also.

I also thought I read something about the Pope being “in meditation” rather than praying.

As for removing his shoes, he wouldn’t have otherwise been able to enter the mosque. Shoes inside a mosque are a strict no-no [and technically you are supposed to do a ritual washing as well]. There are some churches here where that rule is also strictly observed and it is insulting if you walk in with it.

 

[Fergal]

You are judging all on external appearences. How sad. No one but God knows what was in the Holy Father’s heart at this time.

I seem to recall a response Jesus gave to a similar question about external appearances and how we percieve them.

He said something like “You take much time cleaning the outside of the pot until it is shiny and spend no time cleaning the inside.”

And again in Matt. 15 1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!" 3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ 6he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8’These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’"

God is intereted in the internal disposition of the human creature and not in external appearences.

This post shows just how wrong we can get it when we see through worldly eyes.

 

[manualman]

I suppose you would have preferred for him to jump to a high place and call for a new crusade to rid the sacred christian places of the unbelievers?

Surprising that the Holy Spirit picked Benedict instead of folks of this stripe to lead the Church. Or not.

 

[rpp]

I suppose you would have preferred for him to jump to a high place and call for a new crusade to rid the sacred christian places of the unbelievers?

Hmmm… That is an interesing suggestion.



The problem is what will happen to all those out-of-work bishops?

 

[rr1213]

Do you really think that the Pope was praying to ALLAH if he prayed in the mosque? I seriously doubt it. I see no problem here. We are taught to be as innocent as doves, yet as wise as serpents. It would not have been wise for him to make unnecessary gestures that Muslim fanatics could misconstrue. Remember, people die when Muslim fanatics are offended.

 

[Brendan]

Muslims are not heathens, and that seems to be a deliberately inflammatory statement.

Actually, they are heathens.

A heathen is a non catechuminate, non baptized person.

A pagan would be a particular type of heathen, namely one who worships multiple gods.

But Muslims are monothesitic, so they are not pagans, but are most certainly (as a class) heathens.

The single exception would be a baptized person who converted to Islam. That person would not be a heathen, but rather an apostate.

A Muslim would cease to be a heathen if they entering into RCIA.

 

[Brendan]

Do you really think that the Pope was praying to ALLAH if he prayed in the mosque?

Yep, if I was there, I would do the exact same thing as Pope Benedict.

Close my eyes, and pray to God that the Church of Holy Wisdom be cleansed of the descration it has endured and be soon restored to the Christian faith.

 

[rr1213]

Yep, if I was there, I would do the exact same thing as Pope Benedict.

Close my eyes, and pray to God that the Church of Holy Wisdom be cleansed of the descration it has endured and be soon restored to the Christian faith.

From you to God’s ears. Amen.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

This is the tightrope our popes have had to walk, esp. in this century. Should Pius XII have denounced Nazism more loudly or more often or every single time he gave a homily or an address and if he had, would the bloodshed have been greater or lesser or can anybody say for sure? Or should he have done what he could to save as many lives as possible (and he did)? Should Benedict XVI have not said anything at Regensberg so that that nun, eternal rest upon her soul, wouldn’t have been killed or those churches burned? Or should he have told the simple truth (and he did…yes, yes, I know, it was a quote, but I happen to agree with that old empreror)? Who can say? The pope has the whole of the flock to think of and in this instance, I think he probably didn’t want bring anything down on the heads of the tiny Christian minority (he was going to go back to Italy, after all, they’re the ones that have to live there). Our best take on it would simply be to pray for the Holy Father.

 

[st_julie]

" I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some" 1Cor 9:22
also Catholic benifit of the doubt doctrine}
st julie

 

[Melvin]

Well, so much for “the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our God, and of His Christ.”

While I am certain the Holy Father’s intent was faithful to Christ, I am free to judge how I think this act might be interpreted.

Let’s see…the Vicar (one who stands in the place of another) of Christ enters a mosque…an edifice built as a place of worship for a god and his prophet who specifically denies the deity of Christ, the incarnation of God and the Most Holy Trinity, and declares the Christian faith to be false. The Vicar of Christ, as head and representative of all Christendom (even though the Protestants would deny that) then bows his head at the direction of one of that god’s and his prophet’s religious leaders, in prayer…

Now, you and I may say that we are sure that the Holy Father was praying to the Most Holy Trinity, as I at least am sure he was. However, as someone has already noted, we cannot read the Holy Father’s thoughts, and it would be well to remember that neither can the followers of allah…they will interpret this action based solely on its (guess what) outward appearance…

If I were a Muslim, I would believe that the Pope was praying to allah, in effect thereby acknowledging allah as the true god. I would further interpret this as a sign of the weakness and waning of the Christian faith and its civilization and peoples. By the way, since the Church has gone out of its way to assure muslims that both faiths do in fact worship the same God, this would be somewhat difficult for the Christian (at least for the Catholic) to deny.

In sum, I would interpret this act by the Holy Father, especially following John Paul II’s kissing of the Koran, as an act of submission to allah and as head of the Christian faith, a symbolic act of submission of the Christian peoples. If I were therefore a muslim, I would be all the more certain of the future grandeur and dominion of Islam.

And by the way, I don’t recall anything about Paul, when becoming “all things to all men,” praying to any god except the Lord. Remember, it was understood by the early Christians that Jesus Christ is in fact both the God and Messiah of the Jews…hence there was no obeisance to any other deity…and in fact, early Christians died for their refusal to in any way acknowledge the Emperor as a god…Paul, if I am not mistaken, specifically pointed out to non-Christians that their gods were not…gods…

From Europe to Asia to America, leaders of all sizes and shapes are going out of their way to try and make peace with Islam…to divert it from violence…and failing. Of course we want peace and do not wish to insult anyone… but if we are not willing to stand for our own faith and on our right to hold to that faith, on which our entire civilization is founded, wherever we live, why should we expect the Islamic world (or anyone else) to respect us?

If I were not a Catholic who does believe that Benedict XVI truly is the Vicar of Christ, I sure wouldn’t.

 

[fullofzeal]

crusade? :bounce:

just kidding

 

[atsheeran]

Do you really think that the Pope was praying to ALLAH if he prayed in the mosque? I seriously doubt it. I see no problem here. We are taught to be as innocent as doves, yet as wise as serpents. It would not have been wise for him to make unnecessary gestures that Muslim fanatics could misconstrue. Remember, people die when Muslim fanatics are offended.

But the Catholic Church teaches that Muslims worship the one true God. Both Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church confirm this. As such, there is no possible scandal as to whom Pope Benedict may have been praying.

 

[Darrel]

Anyone see anything wrong with this picture, even Paul VI feel to his knees in prayer at the Sancta Sophia. This is the second visit to a Mosque by a Pope and both have been a disappointment. The Pope should not ignore one of Christendom’s most beautiful sites to go pray with heathens.

I think I love the idea of the vicor of Christ praying in a mosque. It is a place that could use the Holy Spirit more then most. The Pope is smart for not offending Islam in Turkey. As a world leader he has political repsonsibilities to consider. If he declares war on Islam they will just kill Christians everyplace they can and perhaps start more wars. And don’t worry, Islam is starting to understand that Catholics and Christians are waking up to there violence and hate. There probably more afraid of us then we are of them in the majority.

-D

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Actually, they are heathens.

A heathen is a non catechuminate, non baptized person.

A pagan would be a particular type of heathen, namely one who worships multiple gods.

But Muslims are monothesitic, so they are not pagans, but are most certainly (as a class) heathens.

The single exception would be a baptized person who converted to Islam. That person would not be a heathen, but rather an apostate.

A Muslim would cease to be a heathen if they entering into RCIA.

You must be getting your info from another source. I was using the dictionary…

1. an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the God of the Bible; a person who is neither a Jew, Christian, nor Muslim; pagan.
2. an irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized person.
   –adjective 3. of or pertaining to heathens; pagan.
3. irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized.

After some light research I found the several accounts of what the term means, so I’m sure it is entirely possible that there are those who view it as “unbaptized persons”. However, most of what I found points to a group of pagans or neo-pagans of German descent. Didn’t really dig into this though…

 

[AJV]

Well, so much for “the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our God, and of His Christ.”

While I am certain the Holy Father’s intent was faithful to Christ, I am free to judge how I think this act might be interpreted.

Let’s see…the Vicar (one who stands in the place of another) of Christ enters a mosque…an edifice built as a place of worship for a god and his prophet who specifically denies the deity of Christ, the incarnation of God and the Most Holy Trinity, and declares the Christian faith to be false. The Vicar of Christ, as head and representative of all Christendom (even though the Protestants would deny that) then bows his head at the direction of one of that god’s and his prophet’s religious leaders, in prayer…

Now, you and I may say that we are sure that the Holy Father was praying to the Most Holy Trinity, as I at least am sure he was. However, as someone has already noted, we cannot read the Holy Father’s thoughts, and it would be well to remember that neither can the followers of allah…they will interpret this action based solely on its (guess what) outward appearance…

If I were a Muslim, I would believe that the Pope was praying to allah, in effect thereby acknowledging allah as the true god. I would further interpret this as a sign of the weakness and waning of the Christian faith and its civilization and peoples. By the way, since the Church has gone out of its way to assure muslims that both faiths do in fact worship the same God, this would be somewhat difficult for the Christian (at least for the Catholic) to deny.

He didn’t bow his head at all in that direction, neither did he end his “prayer” the Muslim way.