Pope makes Turkish mosque visit

[Denise_R]

Paul said it better. Thank you Rayne.

 

[Melvin]

Imagine if a Muslum leader (not a radical Jihadist but a peace-loving Muslum leader) came to visit a Catholic Church. For that matter think of anyone who is not Catholic who attends a Mass.

What would be the most respectful thing to do if one does not believe in the Real Presence of the Eucharist and understand the gestures we use to express ourselves while worshiping? I have witnessed them standing, sitting, or kneeling (most non-Catholics prefer not to kneel but to sit) when everyone else does. They face the altar and sometimes pray along or pray quietly or daydream. They shake hands during the sign of peace. I have many family members who don’t practice any religion but they show respect when they come to a Catholic wedding/funeral/baptism/first Eucharist/ etc…

Can you not see how the Holy Father did the same thing in the Mosque? He isn’t worshiping Allah or turning over Christianity to the Muslums. He is simply showing respect for fellow human beings and most likely praying for their conversion.

We all need to be praying for the conversion of Muslums and and an end to violence because only God can bring about the change of hearts. But God may use men, such as Benedict, to bring about that change. Will you allow him to use you, too?

Instead of being disappointed in the pope, why not praise his actions as peaceful and respectful to others without expecting the same in return. Pope Benedict is not compromising the Church or Christianity by his actions. He is teaching by example. After all, Jesus ate with the tax collectors and prostitutes.

I started out on the other side of this thing…very, very concerned over the Holy Father’s actions. I was wrong. It helped to re-read section 841 in the Catechism, Lumen Gentium 16 and to read Nostra Aetate regarding the Church’s teaching on Muslims and Allah.

It took tremendous courage, faith and love for the Holy Father to do what he did, and I too am proud of him. In the face of his potential assassination he put his money where the Church’s mouth is. By praying in the mosque, he concretely demonstrated that the Church means what it says and is desirous of dialog and mutual respect with Muslims.

As for Muslims viewing things differently, well…we’re all like that until Christ opens our eyes…may all the Muslim peoples be converted and obey the gospel!

Peace be with you.

 

[palmas85]

Melvin;1702877:

If I were a Muslim, I would believe that the Pope was praying to allah, in effect thereby acknowledging allah as the true god. I would further interpret this as a sign of the weakness and waning of the Christian faith and its civilization and peoples.

Let’s hope the Moslems (not to mention some Catholics) are smarter than that.

You see it correctly my good friend Kirk. They will and do indeed see it as weakness and probable capitulation. Remember back in the PI we’ve had problems with these people going way, way back. I really wonder sometimes about the naivite of a lot of Americans and Western Europeans. They just don’t seem to get it.

You see, we say we are the one true church, but we accept that other churces have value and truth. The Muslims believe they are the one true church, period. Everything else is wrong. You know I wish the Holy father had just stood by his statement from a couple of months ago. At least then they would have respcted him and standing up for his church which they can understand even if they think its wrong… Now they won’t even do that because they will see him as being weak and not even believeing his own Churches teaching.

 

[palmas85]

But the Catholic Church teaches that Muslims worship the one true God. Both Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church confirm this. As such, there is no possible scandal as to whom Pope Benedict may have been praying.

It is interesting to note at this point that while we believe they worship the same God, they themselves do not believe it. For them the entire idea of the Christian God is blasphemous.

 

[palmas85]

I think I love the idea of the vicor of Christ praying in a mosque. It is a place that could use the Holy Spirit more then most. The Pope is smart for not offending Islam in Turkey. As a world leader he has political repsonsibilities to consider. If he declares war on Islam they will just kill Christians everyplace they can and perhaps start more wars. And don’t worry, Islam is starting to understand that Catholics and Christians are waking up to there violence and hate. There probably more afraid of us then we are of them in the majority.

-D

Why would you think for a second they are afraid of us? All they have to do is raise their voice and we turn, run and hide.

You guys just don’t get it do you? Islam is not Christianity and Muslims are not going to react to the world the way Christians do. You had better wake up to that fact before it is too late.

 

[maggieodae]

I suppose you would have preferred for him to jump to a high place and call for a new crusade to rid the sacred christian places of the unbelievers?

Surprising that the Holy Spirit picked Benedict instead of folks of this stripe to lead the Church. Or not.

Obviously the Holy Spirit gave Benedict more sense than most of his critic’s.

 

[jack_mason]

A question if I may for all those who say that Islam dictates that all non-Muslims must die (and let’s assume for the sake of argument that the Koran does in fact confirm this) My question then is why have Muslims been so lazy in carrying out that order? Consider that in Iran there are 300,000 Christians, in Syria there are 1.8 million, 12 million in Egypt, 2.5 million in Malaysia, 2 million in Lebanon (making them half the population) and 350,000 in Jordan (There are many more countries I could have listed) Now consider that in most these cases these areas have had Muslim majorities for almost 1000 years and would have had no problems killing off these Christian minorities, so then why didn’t they? It’s not like they would have had any troubles or serious problems doing so. And why do they continue to tolerate them today, if indeed Christianity is considered to blasphemous in their eyes. And don’t for get there are also 30,000 Jews in Turkey and 3000 in the city of Tehran alone in Iran.

 

[palmas85]

A question if I may for all those who say that Islam dictates that all non-Muslims must die (and let’s assume for the sake of argument that the Koran does in fact confirm this) My question then is why have Muslims been so lazy in carrying out that order? Consider that in Iran there are 300,000 Christians, in Syria there are 1.8 million, 12 million in Egypt, 2.5 million in Malaysia, 2 million in Lebanon (making them half the population) and 350,000 in Jordan (There are many more countries I could have listed) Now consider that in most these cases these areas have had Muslim majorities for almost 1000 years and would have had no problems killing off these Christian minorities, so then why didn’t they? It’s not like they would have had any troubles or serious problems doing so. And why do they continue to tolerate them today, if indeed Christianity is considered to blasphemous in their eyes. And don’t for get there are also 30,000 Jews in Turkey and 3000 in the city of Tehran alone in Iran.

You forgot the Philippines my friend. We have a lot of Muslims there too. Fortunately for us they are in the minority there and cannot enforce their will as they have in other countries, except in areas where they dominate… You will find that in most Muslim ountries Christians and Jews are marginalized at best and actively persecuted at worst.

It doesn’t really say they have to die. I believe it says they have to submit. That word is nebulous and can mean many things depending on who is listening…

 

[Melvin]

Palmas,

Believe me, I get it. But the issue isn’t what* they do*, it’s what we do. Islam is not Christianity and is contrary to Christ…however, there is a zeal in Islam that, when the Holy Spirit opens a Muslim’s eyes to the Gospel, often results in wholehearted service to Jesus.

One of my best friends is a former Muslim (now a Christian) from Iran. He knows that he could be killed if the wrong people learn of his conversion. Yet he tells me that when he was growing up in Iran (60s and 70s before immigrating to the US) Christians were held in high esteem by many Muslims who actually saluted them on the streets.

I don’t know if it’s still that way (somehow I doubt it) but this tells me that Islam and Christianity do not necessarily have to be enemies to the death.

I do worry about the duplicity which is at times exercised in Muslims’ contacts with non-Muslims. But who knows how many souls will be lost if we don’t at least try. Surely this must have been one of the considerations in the Holy Father’s mind along with his concern for the Orthodox in Turkey.

Peace be with you.

 

[stellina]

this columnust, covering the Pope’s visit to Turkey for Inside the Vatican, says it better than I ever could, and probably better than anyone on this thread
catholicexchange.com/node/7855

we can pray anytime, anywhere, with anyone, entirely alone, with or without gestures, with or without words.

Thanks - that is a great article. Benedict is a genius and a very brave one at that.

 

[Lance]

A question if I may for all those who say that Islam dictates that all non-Muslims must die (and let’s assume for the sake of argument that the Koran does in fact confirm this) My question then is why have Muslims been so lazy in carrying out that order? Consider that in Iran there are 300,000 Christians, in Syria there are 1.8 million, 12 million in Egypt, 2.5 million in Malaysia, 2 million in Lebanon (making them half the population) and 350,000 in Jordan (There are many more countries I could have listed) Now consider that in most these cases these areas have had Muslim majorities for almost 1000 years and would have had no problems killing off these Christian minorities, so then why didn’t they? It’s not like they would have had any troubles or serious problems doing so. And why do they continue to tolerate them today, if indeed Christianity is considered to blasphemous in their eyes. And don’t for get there are also 30,000 Jews in Turkey and 3000 in the city of Tehran alone in Iran.

I don’t know about your figures for the other nations but Lebanon is not 50% Christian. The Christians of Lebanon – Maronites, Orthodox, and other communities including Protestants – number about 1.5 million, the remnant of a Christian nation that resisted the Islamic conquorers for 13 centuries. Since Lebanon made an ill-conceived pact with the PLO in 1969, hundreds of thousands were massacred, displaced and exiled. During the Israeli operations in Lebanon in 1978 and in 1982, the Christian Lebanese sided with the Israelis against the Syria-backed Islamic Lebanese. In 1985, the Israelis withdrew except for a security buffer zone exposing the Christians to reprisals. Since 1990, the end of the Lebanese civil war, the Christian areas of Lebanon have been under Syrian occupation.

Christians in the north and central parts have been systematically politically and socially oppressed since the Lebanese civil war ended. Hundreds have been arrested, tortured, and jailed by pro-Syrian forces. In the south of Lebanon, thousands of Christians are bombarded constantly by Hezbollah. Thousands of Lebanese Christians fled when Israel pulled out of the security zone in 2000.

Because the matter of parity among confessional groups remains a sensitive political issue, a national census has not been conducted since 1932, before the founding of the modern state. However, Lebanon’s leading daily newspaper, an-Nahar, published on February 10, 2005, a demographic statistical study which put the relative percentages of approximately 3 million members of the voting public as 26.5 percent Sunni Muslim, 26.2 percent Shi’a Muslim, 40.8 percent Christian (Maronites representing 21.1 percent) and 5.6 percent Druze. There has been a steady decline in the number of Christians as compared to Muslims. There are also very small numbers of Jews, Baha’is, Buddhists, and Hindus.

 

[jack_mason]

I don’t know about your figures for the other nations but Lebanon is not 50% Christian. The Christians of Lebanon – Maronites, Orthodox, and other communities including Protestants – number about 1.5 million, the remnant of a Christian nation that resisted the Islamic conquorers for 13 centuries. Since Lebanon made an ill-conceived pact with the PLO in 1969, hundreds of thousands were massacred, displaced and exiled. During the Israeli operations in Lebanon in 1978 and in 1982, the Christian Lebanese sided with the Israelis against the Syria-backed Islamic Lebanese. In 1985, the Israelis withdrew except for a security buffer zone exposing the Christians to reprisals. Since 1990, the end of the Lebanese civil war, the Christian areas of Lebanon have been under Syrian occupation.

Christians in the north and central parts have been systematically politically and socially oppressed since the Lebanese civil war ended. Hundreds have been arrested, tortured, and jailed by pro-Syrian forces. In the south of Lebanon, thousands of Christians are bombarded constantly by Hezbollah. Thousands of Lebanese Christians fled when Israel pulled out of the security zone in 2000.

Because the matter of parity among confessional groups remains a sensitive political issue, a national census has not been conducted since 1932, before the founding of the modern state. However, Lebanon’s leading daily newspaper, an-Nahar, published on February 10, 2005, a demographic statistical study which put the relative percentages of approximately 3 million members of the voting public as 26.5 percent Sunni Muslim, 26.2 percent Shi’a Muslim, 40.8 percent Christian (Maronites representing 21.1 percent) and 5.6 percent Druze. There has been a steady decline in the number of Christians as compared to Muslims. There are also very small numbers of Jews, Baha’is, Buddhists, and Hindus.

Ok, so it’s 40%, not 50%, big deal, that still gives them almost half a population, and when you consider that the Christian communities have less tension between them than the Sunnis and Shi’a, it gives them a larger voice. And could you please provide proof that they are being tortured by Syria? Where on Earth did that come from? Syria itself has a very large Christian population, and they have been one of the most tolerant nations of Christians, and Pope John Paul II himself was welcomed there a few years ago. And Hezbollah, despite what the mainstream media claims, is a secular and nationalist organization, with many members who are Christian. Agree or disagree with them, but you can’t lump them together with a Sunni fundamentalist group like Al-Qaida.

 

[rpp]

Ok, so it’s 40%, not 50%, big deal, that still gives them almost half a population, and when you consider that the Christian communities have less tension between them than the Sunnis and Shi’a, it gives them a larger voice. And could you please provide proof that they are being tortured by Syria? Where on Earth did that come from? Syria itself has a very large Christian population, and they have been one of the most tolerant nations of Christians, and Pope John Paul II himself was welcomed there a few years ago. And Hezbollah, despite what the mainstream media claims, is a secular and nationalist organization, with many members who are Christian. Agree or disagree with them, but you can’t lump them together with a Sunni fundamentalist group like Al-Qaida.

Syrian Christians, a rather small group composed mostlky of Maronite and Chaldean Christians, are not permitted to travel abroad without lengthy bureaucratic paperwork not required by Moslems.

It is against the law in Syria for a Chrsitian to help a Moslem convernt, even if a Moslem approaches them. Direct prosyletations is a very serious offence. Moslems do not have the same restrictions.

In practice, Moslem on Christian crime is rareley prosecuted or punished as severly as other crimes.

Christians are required to observe all Moslems holidays and traditions, such as fasting during Ramadan.

My source is a former Syrian who fled, illegally, several years ago and was granted asylum in Japan. Then he moved to the USA.

Yep, Syria is a paradise of religious tolerance and freedom.

 

[Lance]

Ok, so it’s 40%, not 50%, big deal, that still gives them almost half a population, and when you consider that the Christian communities have less tension between them than the Sunnis and Shi’a, it gives them a larger voice. And could you please provide proof that they are being tortured by Syria? Where on Earth did that come from? ~~~~~~.

My son in law. He is from Lebanon, his dad and lots of uncles and aunts are still there. I am not saying you won’t find any Christians in Hezbollah but I don’t think you will find many as you stated. Most of the Christians you do find in Hezbollah are Palestinians who have let their haterid of Israel take over their lives, not Lebanese.

 

[jack_mason]

My son in law. He is from Lebanon, his dad and lots of uncles and aunts are still there. I am not saying you won’t find any Christians in Hezbollah but I don’t think you will find many as you stated. Most of the Christians you do find in Hezbollah are Palestinians who have let their haterid of Israel take over their lives, not Lebanese.

I’m sure thanks to Israel’s recent bombing campaign you will soon find all groups in Lebanon having a grudge against Israel. If Israel had any chance of making a long lasting peace with it’s northern neighbor, it blew it’s chance. I can only wonder how fearful the Israeli’s must be seeing how their own elected leaders are now dragging them down in the furnace with them.

 

[jack_mason]

Syrian Christians, a rather small group composed mostlky of Maronite and Chaldean Christians, are not permitted to travel abroad without lengthy bureaucratic paperwork not required by Moslems.

It is against the law in Syria for a Chrsitian to help a Moslem convernt, even if a Moslem approaches them. Direct prosyletations is a very serious offence. Moslems do not have the same restrictions.

In practice, Moslem on Christian crime is rareley prosecuted or punished as severly as other crimes.

Christians are required to observe all Moslems holidays and traditions, such as fasting during Ramadan.

My source is a former Syrian who fled, illegally, several years ago and was granted asylum in Japan. Then he moved to the USA.

Yep, Syria is a paradise of religious tolerance and freedom.

I think some of those you stated are true, but required to obey Islamic holidays? Sounds to me your “source” is simply having a grudge against their government because of political reasons. Syria’s government is one of the most secular in the entire region and is very tough on one religious group bullying another. This is why groups like Al-Qaida have declared a hatred of it’s regime. Perhaps you could provide me links to these laws you stated?

 

[flazor1]

I started out on the other side of this thing…very, very concerned over the Holy Father’s actions. I was wrong. It helped to re-read section 841 in the Catechism, Lumen Gentium 16 and to read Nostra Aetate regarding the Church’s teaching on Muslims and Allah.

I’ll risk the accusations of heresy and say that on this point the Catechism is wrong, as are the Council documents on this point. We do not worship Allah, and Muslims do not worship the One true God.

Before you condemn me for heresy may I remind all of you that the Church’s infallible teaching office applies to the Deposit of Faith–specifically to matters of the Christian) faith,and morals–not to the teachings of a 7th-Century pagan. The Church has no more competence to interpret the tr**ue meaning of pagan doctrines of Islam ( a contradiction in terms, anyway), than it does the erroneous doctrines of Hinduism.

Put another way, the Pope’s ex cathedra staements on the Immaculate Conception are binding, but his statements on the relative peacefulness or otherwise of this most barbaric religion of Islam ARE NOT.

I personally do not consider myself bound by any Papal or conciliar statements to the effect that Allah and the Triune God are the same. It is theologically insupportable, not least because the Muslims renounce the Trinity as polytheistic blasphemy, and deny the Divinity of Christ, the Gospels, and all of Christian revelation. Such a statement that we all worship the same God is not part of the Creed, nor is such a teaching part of Christian Revelation. Borrowing a point from the Holy Father’s Regensburg speech, it is not reasonable.

As far as I’m concerned, if the Holy Father could not risk an outward sign of reverence to Christ while visiting the Hagia Sophia, then he should have avoided going there at all.

All this has done is cause confusion.

 

[rpp]

I’ll risk the accusations of heresy and say that on this point the Catechism is wrong, as are the Council documents on this point. We do not worship Allah, and Muslims do not worship the One true God.

Before you condemn me for heresy may I remind all of you that the Church’s infallible teaching office applies to the Deposit of Faith–specifically to matters of the Christian) faith,and morals–not to the teachings of a 7th-Century pagan. The Church has no more competence to interpret the true meaning of pagan doctrines of Islam ( a contradiction in terms, anyway), than it does the erroneous doctrines of Hinduism.

Put another way, the Pope’s ex cathedra staements on the Immaculate Conception are binding, but his statements on the relative peacefulness or otherwise of this most barbaric religion of Islam ARE NOT.

I personally do not consider myself bound by any Papal or conciliar statements to the effect that Allah and the Triune God are the same. It is theologically insupportable, not least because the Muslims renounce the Trinity as polytheistic blasphemy, and deny the Divinity of Christ, the Gospels, and all of Christian revelation. Such a statement that we all worship the same God is not part of the Creed, nor is such a teaching part of Christian Revelation. Borrowing a point from the Holy Father’s Regensburg speech, it is not reasonable.

As far as I’m concerned, if the Holy Father could not risk an outward sign of reverence to Christ while visiting the Hagia Sophia, then he should have avoided going there at all.

All this has done is cause confusion.

What the Catechism says:
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
I do find your statements in conflict with this. This section discusses only the chances of salvation for those who have not heard the Word of Christ. So Moslems have a slim chance, but basically, they need to be seeking holiness and a pursuit of God. I do not think the likes of Bin Laden or Mohammed Atta or those who instigate violent protests when insult is perceived quite qualify there.

I will even go so far as to say if a Moslem engages in a comparitive analysis and mocks or condemns Christianity in the process, they are certainly committing serious error and thus greatly reduce the chances of their salvation.

Moslems are not our “spiritual brothers”. If they are, then so are the Mayans who performed human sacrifice.

 

[Lance]

I’m sure thanks to Israel’s recent bombing campaign you will soon find all groups in Lebanon having a grudge against Israel. If Israel had any chance of making a long lasting peace with it’s northern neighbor, it blew it’s chance. I can only wonder how fearful the Israeli’s must be seeing how their own elected leaders are now dragging them down in the furnace with them.

Their dislike of the current leadership of Israel in no way lessens their dislike, even hatered of Hezbollah. They blame Hezbollah for starting the war just as they blame the Palestinians for the civil war. Their is no love lost between the Muslims and Christians in Lebanon.

 

[jack_mason]

Their dislike of the current leadership of Israel in no way lessens their dislike, even hatered of Hezbollah. They blame Hezbollah for starting the war just as they blame the Palestinians for the civil war. Their is no love lost between the Muslims and Christians in Lebanon.

Lebanon has been an example to the world of muslims and christians getting along with each other. yet every few decades some groups, whether the more extreme zionist administrations of israel, the islamic fundementalists such as al-qaida, or apostate christian militias, or a combination of the above, always want to disrupt the hamony of this country. these groups all have at least one thing in common, which is a fear of lebanon being an example to the region, since if other countries emulated lebanon, these radical groups would lose their influence and whatever power they have.