Pope makes Turkish mosque visit

[Prayer_Warrior]

I’ll risk the accusations of heresy and say that on this point the Catechism is wrong, as are the Council documents on this point. We do not worship Allah, and Muslims do not worship the One true God.

Before you condemn me for heresy may I remind all of you that the Church’s infallible teaching office applies to the Deposit of Faith–specifically to matters of the Christian) faith,and morals–not to the teachings of a 7th-Century pagan. The Church has no more competence to interpret the tr**ue meaning of pagan doctrines of Islam ( a contradiction in terms, anyway), than it does the erroneous doctrines of Hinduism.

Put another way, the Pope’s ex cathedra staements on the Immaculate Conception are binding, but his statements on the relative peacefulness or otherwise of this most barbaric religion of Islam ARE NOT.

I personally do not consider myself bound by any Papal or conciliar statements to the effect that Allah and the Triune God are the same. It is theologically insupportable, not least because the Muslims renounce the Trinity as polytheistic blasphemy, and deny the Divinity of Christ, the Gospels, and all of Christian revelation. Such a statement that we all worship the same God is not part of the Creed, nor is such a teaching part of Christian Revelation. Borrowing a point from the Holy Father’s Regensburg speech, it is not reasonable.

As far as I’m concerned, if the Holy Father could not risk an outward sign of reverence to Christ while visiting the Hagia Sophia, then he should have avoided going there at all.

All this has done is cause confusion.

No judging or condemnation here, but I disagree. I have thought a lot about the argument that “Muslims do not worship the same God”. Here is why I feel that is false. First of all, “Allah” simply means “God” so everytime you say the word Allah it means “God” Now, whether or not it is the same God. They believe there is one God, so do we. They believe this one God is the creator of heaven and earth…err, so do we. How many “Gods” created heaven and earth? One. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that we are talking about the same God. Further, they consider themselves to be decended from Abraham, so do we. However, they believe that it was Ishmael who was the recipient of God’s promise, not Isaac.

Here’s the catch though, God, as we know Him has not been revealed to Muslims through the quran. That doesn’t mean it is not the same God, but rather they do not know Him as we do. They worship He who they do not really know because their scripture (from a Christian perspective) does not reveal Him.

Of course, as a Christian, I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God not just a “prophet”. I firmly believe that the Holy Bible and not the quran is the inspired word of God. However, to state with certainty that it is not the same God seems illogical. Hindus worship different gods than we do, Jews and Muslims and Christians all believe in the same God… we just have extremely different views on who that God truly is. I’m curious, since Jews do not acknowledge Jesus and their view of God and salvation are entirely different than a Christians view, do you believe that they have a different “God”?

I believe much of Islam is a Christian heresy, as I said I do not consider the quran inspired by God. But Hiliare Belloc said that heresies survive by the truth they contain. This is profoundly true, and I believe that the elements of truth in Islam (that there is one God, that He created everything, that He is all-powerful, that He is to be worshipped, etc) revolve around the fact that it is God they are talking about…not a god.

I respect your opinion of course, but just wanted to point out a different perspective.

 

[YinYangMom]

The debate on all this is dizzying for my limited mind, at best.

I can’t get past two popes actually working toward peace with the Muslims…and both being driven to demonstrate Catholic sincerity through outward signs.

One kissed the Koran.
The other, visiting Turkey and entering the mosque.

It is not for me to determine whether either was ‘right’ to do so or not. From what I’ve read, Pope Benedict stood repectfully as the other person paused to pray. If that’s the case then I don’t see what the big hoopla is…except that the secular media has all these headings about the Pope praying to mecca like a muslim - now that’s a surprise! (Not)

Anyway. the trust I have in the way our Church is guided, by the Holy Spirit, and the clear missions which become evident - over time - of the Lord’s guiding hand over our popes, tells me not to get caught up in the nitty gritty here.

God is speaking to US, his faithful, and he’s doing so through the pope’s actions…we can’t just dismiss their guided actions as poppycock because our intellectual minds have reached a conclusion about Muslims based on contradictory evidence.

No, I don’t believe the popes’ actions were infallible. I don’t believe we have to accept this talk about worshiping the same God as fact…but I do believe we have to listen to the message…and ask why God choses to put it out there like this…at this time in history…

We know He has a plan…
We know the popes serve as His servant…
He’s up to something with this approach, I just don’t know what it is…

 

[Lance]

Lebanon has been an example to the world of muslims and christians getting along with each other. yet every few decades some groups, whether the more extreme zionist administrations of israel, the islamic fundementalists such as al-qaida, or apostate christian militias, or a combination of the above, always want to disrupt the hamony of this country. these groups all have at least one thing in common, which is a fear of lebanon being an example to the region, since if other countries emulated lebanon, these radical groups would lose their influence and whatever power they have.

If this is your idea of Christians and Muslims getting along I would hate to see what you feel is ill will toward each other. I did not post the battles since 2000 since we are all probably familiar with them.

A short history of Lebanon and war.
1860 Druze-Christian war kills 12,000 Christians. French troops protect Maronites.
1914-18 Ottoman rule in Syria collapses during WW I. Mass starvation in Lebanon.
1920 France given mandate for Syria and Lebanon, creates State of Greater Lebanon. British hold mandate in Palestine.
1936 Pierre Gemayel forms Phalange Party after visit to Nazi Germany.
1939-45 British invade Lebanon in 1941 and capture Beirut from Vichy. France promises full independence.
1946 French troops leave Lebanon.
1948 Israel created. Palestinian exodus into Lebanon and Jordan.
1958 Civil war in Lebanon as Muslims rally to pan-Arab call of Egyptian Pres. Nasser. US Marines land in Beirut in accordance with Ike’s doctrine of resistance to international communism at request of Lebanese Pres. Camille Chamoun.
1964 PLO founded.
1970 PLO driven out of Jordan, sets up headquarters in Beirut and increases raids into Israel from Southern Lebanon.
1975 Christian Maronite-Muslim civil war breaks out.
1976 Civil war intensifies. Christians massacre Palestinians of Karantina and Tel el-Za’atar, Palestinians massacre Christians in Damour. Syrian troops enter and occupy all but far southern Lebanon at the request of Lebanese Pres. Franjieh.
1978 Israel invades southern Lebanon to halt PLO raids. United Nations force sent to southern Lebanon. Israel forms proxy Lebanese militia in occupied southern zone. Syria shells Christians in east Beirut.
1980-81 Increase in hostilities between Israel, Israeli backed militias and PLO.
1982 Syrian troops besiege Syrian border city of Hama after uprising and slaughter 10,000 people. Israel invades Lebanon after attempted murder of Israeli ambassador in London. Israel forces attack Syrian forces in Bekaa Valley, surround west Beirut and demand evacuation of PLO and Syrians from Beirut. US-French-Italian troops oversee evacuation of 11,000 PLO men. Palestinian women and children remain. Lebanese Pres. Elect Bashir Gemayel is murdered after foreign troops depart Israel invades west Beirut and send Christian Phalangist militias into Palestinian camps of Sabra and Chatila where 100’s of civilians are massacred. Israel withdraws from west Beirut and US-French-Italian forces return.
1983 US Embassy destroyed by Islamic Jihad, more fighting between Muslims and Christians. Islamic Jihad suicide bomber destroys US military headquarters kill over 300 servicemen.
1984 Multinational force leaves Beirut after collapse of Lebanese government. Abductions in Beirut of Westerners. Muslims fight Israelis in south.
1985 Israel withdraws from Sidon and start iron fist policy against guerrillas.
1986-87 Fighting continues.
1988 Lebanese parliament fails to elect a new president. Rival prime ministers take office in east and west Beirut.
1989 General Aoun, Christian P.M., declares war on Syrian army in Lebanon. East Beirut besieged by Syrians, Aoun abandons his war.
1990 Aoun is driven from Presidential Palace and civil war officially ends.
1993 Israel bombs southern Lebanon even as Beirut is being rebuilt.
1996 Over 200 Lebanese die in Israel’s ‘Grapes of Wrath’ attack.
2000 Israel withdraws to its own border. Hezbolla proclaims victory. Oslo agreement collapses in violence.

 

[jack_mason]

If this is your idea of Christians and Muslims getting along I would hate to see what you feel is ill will toward each other. I did not post the battles since 2000 since we are all probably familiar with them.

A short history of Lebanon and war.
1860 Druze-Christian war kills 12,000 Christians. French troops protect Maronites.
1914-18 Ottoman rule in Syria collapses during WW I. Mass starvation in Lebanon.
1920 France given mandate for Syria and Lebanon, creates State of Greater Lebanon. British hold mandate in Palestine.
1936 Pierre Gemayel forms Phalange Party after visit to Nazi Germany.
1939-45 British invade Lebanon in 1941 and capture Beirut from Vichy. France promises full independence.
1946 French troops leave Lebanon.
1948 Israel created. Palestinian exodus into Lebanon and Jordan.
1958 Civil war in Lebanon as Muslims rally to pan-Arab call of Egyptian Pres. Nasser. US Marines land in Beirut in accordance with Ike’s doctrine of resistance to international communism at request of Lebanese Pres. Camille Chamoun.
1964 PLO founded.
1970 PLO driven out of Jordan, sets up headquarters in Beirut and increases raids into Israel from Southern Lebanon.
1975 Christian Maronite-Muslim civil war breaks out.
1976 Civil war intensifies. Christians massacre Palestinians of Karantina and Tel el-Za’atar, Palestinians massacre Christians in Damour. Syrian troops enter and occupy all but far southern Lebanon at the request of Lebanese Pres. Franjieh.
1978 Israel invades southern Lebanon to halt PLO raids. United Nations force sent to southern Lebanon. Israel forms proxy Lebanese militia in occupied southern zone. Syria shells Christians in east Beirut.
1980-81 Increase in hostilities between Israel, Israeli backed militias and PLO.
1982 Syrian troops besiege Syrian border city of Hama after uprising and slaughter 10,000 people. Israel invades Lebanon after attempted murder of Israeli ambassador in London. Israel forces attack Syrian forces in Bekaa Valley, surround west Beirut and demand evacuation of PLO and Syrians from Beirut. US-French-Italian troops oversee evacuation of 11,000 PLO men. Palestinian women and children remain. Lebanese Pres. Elect Bashir Gemayel is murdered after foreign troops depart Israel invades west Beirut and send Christian Phalangist militias into Palestinian camps of Sabra and Chatila where 100’s of civilians are massacred. Israel withdraws from west Beirut and US-French-Italian forces return.
1983 US Embassy destroyed by Islamic Jihad, more fighting between Muslims and Christians. Islamic Jihad suicide bomber destroys US military headquarters kill over 300 servicemen.
1984 Multinational force leaves Beirut after collapse of Lebanese government. Abductions in Beirut of Westerners. Muslims fight Israelis in south.
1985 Israel withdraws from Sidon and start iron fist policy against guerrillas.
1986-87 Fighting continues.
1988 Lebanese parliament fails to elect a new president. Rival prime ministers take office in east and west Beirut.
1989 General Aoun, Christian P.M., declares war on Syrian army in Lebanon. East Beirut besieged by Syrians, Aoun abandons his war.
1990 Aoun is driven from Presidential Palace and civil war officially ends.
1993 Israel bombs southern Lebanon even as Beirut is being rebuilt.
1996 Over 200 Lebanese die in Israel’s ‘Grapes of Wrath’ attack.
2000 Israel withdraws to its own border. Hezbolla proclaims victory. Oslo agreement collapses in violence.

first off, i notice you left out pre-20th century for the most part, since i admit the 20th century has been the worse time for Lebanon (and most the world for that matter) Also half the incidents you listed don’t even concern Lebanon, and lastly it seems much of the problems involved that you listed were lasting effects from France’s imperial occupation of Lebanon (funny isn’t it how most of the world’s conflict zones are areas that were devastated by imperial colonialism?) Yes you sure have a long list of bad incidents in this country’s history, but I could list just as many incidents even for a stable country such as the USA, and also many of the incidents posted were not religious wars but were more so on political grounds (Don’t forget that in history most “religious wars” were really just cover excuses for political reasons, most kings would simply covet a neighbors resources and use the excuse “God wills it!” to his people.

 

[jack_mason]

Hindus worship different gods than we do, Jews and Muslims and Christians all believe in the same God… we just have extremely different views on who that God truly is.

A little fact I would like to point out that not many people know… despite the fact it is commonly believed that Hinduism is the last polytheist religion, it is actually monotheist. All those “gods” like Shiva, Krishna, Ganesha, etc. are actually all incarnations of Brahma, the supreme creator (so imagine instead of one Jesus you have multiple versions of him, and they are all male and female, some of them give birth, other go to war and kill each other as well)

Confusing eh? :whacky:

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

A little fact I would like to point out that not many people know… despite the fact it is commonly believed that Hinduism is the last polytheist religion, it is actually monotheist. All those “gods” like Shiva, Krishna, Ganesha, etc. are actually all incarnations of Brahma, the supreme creator (so imagine instead of one Jesus you have multiple versions of him, and they are all male and female, some of them give birth, other go to war and kill each other as well)

Confusing eh? :whacky:

Interesting. I suppose I spoke out of place because I know very little about Hinduism, only that there were multiple “gods” involved. I understand, I think , the concept you are conveying. Good to know…thanks.

 

[Peregrino]

Rayne hit it on the head. Thank you.

God bless the Holy Father. Obviously he remembers that it is not external things that defile us.

 

[Lance]

first off, i notice you left out pre-20th century for the most part, since i admit the 20th century has been the worse time for Lebanon (and most the world for that matter) Also half the incidents you listed don’t even concern Lebanon, and lastly it seems much of the problems involved that you listed were lasting effects from France’s imperial occupation of Lebanon (funny isn’t it how most of the world’s conflict zones are areas that were devastated by imperial colonialism?) Yes you sure have a long list of bad incidents in this country’s history, but I could list just as many incidents even for a stable country such as the USA, and also many of the incidents posted were not religious wars but were more so on political grounds (Don’t forget that in history most “religious wars” were really just cover excuses for political reasons, most kings would simply covet a neighbors resources and use the excuse “God wills it!” to his people.

Which of the events I listed did not concern Lebanon? Only 3 of the items concerned France. Please supply a list of the civil uprising in the US in the 20th century. Lastly I will take my SIL’s word for it that there is much distrust and unrest between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon since he has lived there and his family is there today. What are your sources?

 

[jack_mason]

Which of the events I listed did not concern Lebanon?

Um half of them? Most deal with the PLO, and while the PLO has had a history in Lebanon, most of their dealings, especially the ones listed, were more focused in Palestine and Israeli territory

Only 3 of the items concerned France.

Yes, but many of the incidents that happened afterwards were results of the political chaos that the French left behind

Please supply a list of the civil uprising in the US in the 20th century.

When did I ever say the US had uprisings?

Lastly I will take my SIL’s word for it that there is much distrust and unrest between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon since he has lived there and his family is there today. What are your sources?

Your asking me to prove a negative? Well if you need some evidence here is info straight from the source. I admit the site is a little chaotic but the links are very helpful and all come from middle eastern Christian sources. The site owner is a Catholic priest, born in Palestine who now resides in California.

al-bushra.org/lebanon/0lebanon.htm

 

[Walt_Oliver]

REMINDER

The topic of this thread is the pope’s visit to a Turkish mosque, not the current and past turmoil in Lebanon.

 

[Lance]

REMINDER

The topic of this thread is the pope’s visit to a Turkish mosque, not the current and past turmoil in Lebanon.

Mia culpa. Sorry. I have no problem with the pope visiting a mosque, I just wish he had show the same amout of respect when he entered Hagia Sophia. Just my opinion.

 

[DaughterSorrow]

Instead of being disappointed in the pope, why not praise his actions as peaceful and respectful to others without expecting the same in return. Pope Benedict is not compromising the Church or Christianity by his actions. He is teaching by example. After all, Jesus ate with the tax collectors and prostitutes.

Amen, sister! I am so filled with love for our Holy Father. I am so very proud of the example of Christ that he gave while in Turkey to the Muslim cleric as well as to the Orthodox patriarch. He was a messenger of peace and love. Rather than scrutinize Pope Benedict, we should be praying for Him and look for guidance FROM him in our church. It seems that so many want to judge his actions rather than TRUST in him. He was chosen by God to lead us at this time. Let us trust in him.

In Peace,
DS

 

[dessert]

Amen, sister! I am so filled with love for our Holy Father. I am so very proud of the example of Christ that he gave while in Turkey to the Muslim cleric as well as to the Orthodox patriarch. He was a messenger of peace and love. Rather than scrutinize Pope Benedict, we should be praying for Him and look for guidance FROM him in our church. It seems that so many want to judge his actions rather than TRUST in him. He was chosen by God to lead us at this time. Let us trust in him.

In Peace,
DS

Yes I totally agree, I wish he would come to America often. I pray he has a safe trip whereever he goes. Does anyone know of the address to write him a letter? Do they respond? I don’t have any of the links written down. I think it is great that we can buy medals and things that are blessed by him.
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[dessert]

Amen, sister! I am so filled with love for our Holy Father. I am so very proud of the example of Christ that he gave while in Turkey to the Muslim cleric as well as to the Orthodox patriarch. He was a messenger of peace and love. Rather than scrutinize Pope Benedict, we should be praying for Him and look for guidance FROM him in our church. It seems that so many want to judge his actions rather than TRUST in him. He was chosen by God to lead us at this time. Let us trust in him.

In Peace,
DS

Yes I totally agree, I wish he would come to America often. I pray he has a safe trip whereever he goes. Does anyone know of the address to write him a letter? Do they respond? I don’t have any of the links written down. I think it is great that we can buy medals and things that are blessed by him.
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